Discussion Open Letter to Frontier Developments

[Shar]

OPEN LETTER TO THE DISGRUNTLED TYPES

Its too grindy - its too easy - its too hard your wining does my head in, why why do you play? And if you don't play why why are you here, i smell trolls.

Its a short letter custom made for your attention span.

Excuse my rudeness I,m just sick of every thread being invaded by the same childish crap.

 

[CaptainSeriousFun]

OPEN LETTER TO THE DISGRUNTLED TYPES

Its too grindy - its too easy - its too hard your wining does my head in, why why do you play? And if you don't play why why are you here, i smell trolls.

Its a short letter custom made for your attention span.

Excuse my rudeness I,m just sick of every thread being invaded by the same childish crap.

I, too, want them to go far, far away.

 

[DrunkenAlcoholic]

People hating on these types of trade tool dont need to use them, they have no right to say what other peoples game play should be like, having these tools is like flight assist, those who disagree with these tools just turn "trade assist" off a.k.a dont use it, and those who enjoy using these tools can turn "trade assist" on

 

[Teyloune]

Those 3th Party Apps should be an ingame thing, becuz they make the game more fun.

 

[Garrand]

"If you don't like the game exactly as it is and want any changes, even things that would be an improvement, you're a troll so go away."

If we leave, we take our dollars with us, and then your game gets no more development. Then you can be the best purist in a galaxy of 50 people. There are staples of successful online games that are missing or unrefined. We love what the game could be, and have as much "right" as anyone else to have our voice heard.

 

[Shar]

"If you don't like the game exactly as it is and want any changes, even things that would be an improvement, you're a troll so go away."

If we leave, we take our dollars with us, and then your game gets no more development. Then you can be the best purist in a galaxy of 50 people. There are staples of successful online games that are missing or unrefined. We love what the game could be, and have as much "right" as anyone else to have our voice heard.

If all 5 of you leave, the game will survive, just leave your money we want that, also we like good ideas for improving the game so leave them. this thread is about support for the 3rd party tool which appears to have overwhelming support and we will defend them from players that accuse us of being cheats, but after saying that, I,m not at all sure your one of them so cool your jets.

 

[NeilKD]

When I started playing ED in July I concentrated on trading as my primary role. To try and improve my profits I created a complex series of linked spreadsheets that I updated manually with commodity prices. It was a chore but it was the only way to make sense of the massive amounts of data I needed to track.

Then I discovered the third party tools.

I am continously amazed by, and hugely grateful for, the enormous amount of work that you guys put into developing and maintaining these instruments. You have increased my enjoyment of the game tremendously.

I know how much work goes into developing the slick front-ends that we use and how much more goes into the back-ends that we don't see. I also know what is involved with maintaining the monster once it has been released into to wild.

You guys - the TP Devs - are awsome and I sincerely hope that FDev recognise how much your efforts improve our playing experience. In my opinion they should be doing everything they can to assist and encourage you. In fact they should have a permanent TP Dev Liaison Officer whose sole responsibility is to interact with and assist you guys.

Thank you for the great work you do.

 

[wolverine2710]

Commanders. We are all passionate about ED, otherwise we would not play the game and be here in the forums. We all have a right to voice our opinion - pro or against the open letter. As I've signed the open letter, initiated EDDN and I'm the co-author of EDCOdex (website with a LARGE collection of tools,threads,videos) we all know where I stand.

A plea to you all. Can we please act in a civil manner and discuss the open letter in such a way that this thread is meaningful. The tone makes the music. I'm extremely passionate about getting an API, a real web-api, a dump api or official approval or disapproval of using the companion api. When we try to respect the opinion of each other the changes of this important thread getting derailed gets minimized and perhaps FD listens and we get an official statement from them.

 

[Shar]

Commanders. We are all passionate about ED, otherwise we would not play the game and be here in the forums. We all have a right to voice our opinion - pro or against the open letter. As I've signed the open letter, initiated EDDN and I'm the co-author of EDCOdex (website with a LARGE collection of tools,threads,videos) we all know where I stand.

A plea to you all. Can we please act in a civil manner and discuss the open letter in such a way that this thread is meaningful. The tone makes the music. I'm extremely passionate about getting an API, a real web-api, a dump api or official approval or disapproval of using the companion api. When we try to respect the opinion of each other the changes of this important thread getting derailed gets minimized and perhaps FD listens and we get an official statement from them.

Thank you, point taken and for my part i apologize if any of my comments upset, however i don't appreciate being called a cheat, that is an inappropriate opinion that requires a response. onward and upward commanders. I have no more to say on the matter.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

I don't use 3rd party tools.
The main reason I don't is because I feel they will stop me from understanding how the game works and restrict my enjoyment of the game.
I'm a gamer, an old school one who wants any game to be a bit of a challenge. It's why I play games.
If I was to use 3rd party tools then they would cheapen the experience for me, as a player and that is why I don't.
I don't need to be told where the best profit trade runs are, I would rather work that out for myself.

My reasons for this are purely based on my game experience and how I want to play the game.
I will not dictate terms on how others choose how to play the game but if you want to get the best out of this game then understanding how it works by how you play the game is much better than just relying on something telling you what to do.
I think some tools deny players the learning experience of playing the game and then they grind which is just bad.

There are other tools that are really helpful for players, like the shipyard tools, so there is no just nerf it all argument. I'd also like an in-game commanders log so I can take notes and flag systems for whatever they're good for. But it's personal information. People can share it if they want as well but it shouldn't be global, more for those you work with and an option to give info if you get a favour. All this is lost when the info is available to everyone.
But when a tool crosses the line and denies players actually having to play, understand and restrict possibilities is when I think it's anti-game.
This is a game after all.

 

[wolverine2710]

Thank you, point taken and for my part i apologize if any of my comments upset, however i don't appreciate being called a cheat, that is an inappropriate opinion that requires a response. onward and upward commanders.

My post was directed to everyone, and absolutely NOT directed at you. I apologize if you felt that it was and I should have been clearer, my bad. The point I was trying to make, the changes of FD taking this open letter serious increases when we all try to respect each other. In each and every thread about an api, (trading) tools cheating comes up, lore comes up and a thread gets derailed. Most of the time it are the same commanders who start with the cheating,lore argument. That tactic unfortunately works. In effect the thread(s) could be taken less serious by FD.

Note: I've been called a lot of things in the past. I've developed some kind of elephant skin. Most of the time I succeed in staying on topic and being polite, civilized and respectful. Sometimes I horribly fail and my emotions take over - fueled by the passion for this game and what it could become when FD supplies us with an API. Each and every time I learn from that and I use that experience for the next time. Live and learn so to say...... I still horribly fail occasionally. So even at 50 this old geezer still has a lot to learn, which is a good thing.....

 

[Hampstor]

Gaming has moved forward since 1984, people have better things to do than spend hours looking for trade routes.

 

[bigtaff]

A big thank you to all the developers of third party tools out there.

The official Lore argument is a waste of time, there is only ONE official Lore, and that is "Play the game the way you want to play it!"

When I visit a system to Buy/Sell goods, I just don't go to the station with the best price, I visit every station in that system and upload the data to Thrudd's, EDDN, Slopeys etc. I also try to do trades to systems that have not been updated for a while and take a chance that I'll make a small profit. Sure there will be commanders who will only want the best possible price, but I suspect that there are may more out there who are like me, willing to support the community and make a small profit.

Being rather cynical, I suspect the reason FD has not updated the API or supplied tools is because it is more cost effective for them to allow TP developers to do it, thus freeing up valuable resources within the company to concentrate on the many bug fixes that still need to be done.

Keep up the great work Guy's and Gal's and don't let the "Luddites" grind you down

 

[Zalifer]

In a game that has so much interesting data to access, we should have had a rather fully featured API from day one.

 

[PhoenicianSon]

Just to contribute, I support the third party tools. Particularly the ship building tools, like coriolis.io and the trade tools like Thrudds ED Trading Tools. Sure, you can commit to some trading by way of the system information in the game, but a lot of you state that the use of 3rd party tools is lazy. Honestly, for me at least, when I am not using Thrudd's ED Trading Tool on my iPad I am being lazy about my trading, so it is more like the opposite.

I think saying that the third party tools are a waste, or otherwise knocking players or fans for using them is being inconsiderate to those people who have taken their time to create these wonderful tools. If you don't like them or feel that they are a cheat or an easy way out, it is your constitutional right (yes, literally, your constitutional right - you can thank Hustler actually for that right extending to entertainment) to not use them and to ignore them. However, as much as it is your right to ignore them, it is the right of others to use them, and the contractual privilege afforded by Frontier for those handful of players who want to help other players to make them.

Whether you use them, don't use them, support those who make them, or take a stand against them, you should be cognizant and appreciative for those people who have taken time from their day to create, maintain and share them with the player base. I thank each and every one of you for creating them, whether I use your particular third party tool or not. As I read and scour the forums, I find more and more of these tools that peak my interest and are more and more impressive with each iteration I find, such as I had today when reading the post that started this thread.

Thank you all and don't let anyone discourage you from continuing to create, maintain, innovate, and improve these tools to offer them to the player base to enhance their experience in game. I surely speak for more than just myself when I express my appreciation, our appreciation, for them!

 

[bigtaff]

The stats speak for themselves: http://eddn.ed-td.space/

Since May 2015, approx 400,000 updates to the EDDN network have been sent in.

Approx 13,000 yesterday and so far as of 0745 GMT today 3,000.

I think that proves that there is a vast demand for this type of info out there.

Keep those hits coming in Commander's and once again, a big thank you to all the TP developers and the all the Commander's who are contributing the data

 

[bigtaff]

but that is how trade is done today! You load an truck full of stuff and

it drives around until someone pays more than the junk was bought for!

What a load of rubbish!

No ship/Lorry loads a cargo without knowing where it is going and for what price it gets for carrying it. Just check out this place, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Exchange, since 1774 it's been supply shipowners with cargo and trade info and yet in the 33rd century you cannot have something like it!

 

[Minyeni]

Those who say ED doesn't have near-instantaneous FTL comms and discount "pilot to pilot chat" and "galnet" are still going to need to explain how the Warrant Scanner works. In game, I press a button and, in 10-15 seconds, I get information from every major or minor faction in the bubble about exactly how much they want some particular commander to be dead. The amount of transmitted data is roughly equivalent to getting the commodity info for a station. (In game, of course.) Whatever in-game, lore-based mechanism you might imagine enables KWS to work has exactly the same data transmission requirements and participation incentives as would making commodity data available.

 

[Lowievisser]

OMG, Spoiler sites, if a large part of the community can't play without them then there is a huge issue, gamers becoming too lazy to find traderoutes the old way ? How is it possible they are even sharing that data? Doesn't it completely spoil the game if everything is already on a website?

lazy?? it simpel does not work ingame ilmao

 

[wolverine2710]

Just to contribute, I support the third party tools. Particularly the ship building tools, like coriolis.io and the trade tools like Thrudds ED Trading Tools. Sure, you can commit to some trading by way of the system information in the game, but a lot of you state that the use of 3rd party tools is lazy. Honestly, for me at least, when I am not using Thrudd's ED Trading Tool on my iPad I am being lazy about my trading, so it is more like the opposite.

I think saying that the third party tools are a waste, or otherwise knocking players or fans for using them is being inconsiderate to those people who have taken their time to create these wonderful tools. If you don't like them or feel that they are a cheat or an easy way out, it is your constitutional right (yes, literally, your constitutional right - you can thank Hustler actually for that right extending to entertainment) to not use them and to ignore them. However, as much as it is your right to ignore them, it is the right of others to use them, and the contractual privilege afforded by Frontier for those handful of players who want to help other players to make them.

Whether you use them, don't use them, support those who make them, or take a stand against them, you should be cognizant and appreciative for those people who have taken time from their day to create, maintain and share them with the player base. I thank each and every one of you for creating them, whether I use your particular third party tool or not. As I read and scour the forums, I find more and more of these tools that peak my interest and are more and more impressive with each iteration I find, such as I had today when reading the post that started this thread.
.
Thank you all and don't let anyone discourage you from continuing to create, maintain, innovate, and improve these tools to offer them to the player base to enhance their experience in game. I surely speak for more than just myself when I express my appreciation, our appreciation, for them!

Thank you for your kind words, I'm sure they are appreciated by a lot of tool authors. You might be interested in EDCodex of which I'm co-author. It is a very large collection of third-party tools, interesting threads, videos, livesreams. It will safe you a lot scouring the forums. I'm sure its not a complete overview of all tools but its pretty close. Should you know of one which is not there yet, feel free to register and add it yourself. Some commanders prefer tools which do not tell them the best routes but help/guide them in their effort by collecting data and storing data so commanders themselves can make the right choice. There are at least a couple of them - basically replacing pen and paper. If you would like to avoid inputting data manually but import them from the game then there are OCR tools to do that or tools which use the companion API to retrieve trading, shipyard and outfitting information. Optionally OCR and API tools allow you to share this data with others by submitting data to for example EDDN. A very large portion of the (trading) tools is connected to EDDN.

Commanders have expressed that when lots and lots of data is available that it would disrupt things like the market. I personally have another opinion and I can support that with proof but time is limited atm and OT. It also open up new possibilities - especially for those commanders who want to analyse things themselves. Last year (2014) we had a period that EMDN (basically EDDN) existed for a while. Andreas created that and the MD tool to upload data to it. It was tolerated by FD then till they changed their data access policy end of Beta1. This was before the companion API which powers the official iPhone app and the MD tool hooked into the ED client to get market data and upload it. FD stated this caused problems for them, ED and the support team. Hence it was forbidden and EMDN was shutdown. In beta 1 we had approx 55 systems and also 55 stations or so. Quite a lot of commanders used that tool and market data was quite accurate. During that time he created a few VERY interesting video and he analysed the market. He was using the open source software ELK stack for that - which uses Kibana as a visualization tool. Have a look at the following very useful infromation.

• [Video] Market data visualization with EMDN and ELK
  
• Economist Newsletter #1: Insight into the current market dynamics
• Economist Newsletter #2: The Eranin food crisis
  

I was reluctant to share this information because I'm afraid things/conclusions would be taken out of context and being used as fuel against this open letter. But I think it shows what is ALSO possible when there is enough good data. If you would like to discuss what can be done with tools as Kibana or other visualization tools then please do but please respect my wish to NOT to use it as fuel against this open letter. This is much appreciated.