Discussion Open Letter to Frontier Developments

Status
Thread Closed: Not open for further replies.
These requests have fallen on deaf ears for over a year. Fundamental gameplay improvements are not on the cards.
Instead, we got a slider that lets you calculate FSD boost from synthesised fuel that is, for some absolutely unfathomable reason, only available if home made and not sold in even the highest tech station of a 15billion population system.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

>>Originally Posted by Kristov View Post
Why do people keep using the Stock Exchanges as examples here? We aren't buying and selling stocks in companies, we're buying and selling wholesale goods, very different things totally, you can't compare the two. I can see how much WalMart's stock is selling for, but I can NOT see what WalMart is spending on their products. Do you see the difference there?

----

Im sorry, but this is a fallacious argument. If you you were indeed a wholesaler with business selling to wall mart, you could very well learn their purchasing prices.

At the very least, your SCM would record the information for future use.

And another person without any real world experience in this field...no, that's not how it work. You know what WalMart pays YOU, you don't know what they pay someone else for the very same product as that price will vary depending on deals made, supply, demand and possibly the season, as well as location, potential shipping costs and so on. It's NOT a simple thing, there's a reason why so many people start businesses each day and fail, they think like you folks do. It's so easy, you can get the prices for everything and always know what's profitable, you can't fail to get rich! Only, it doesn't work that way at all, they go out of business because of that fact.

I know what my company(we provide cellphone service) pays for our cellphone network time with each of our providers, but I don't know what our competitors pay for it from those same providers, the provider won't tell me, nor will our competitors. There's a reason we have legal paperwork our employees must sign that doesn't allow them to discuss that information with anyone outside of the company, legal paperwork that is rather common in many different fields today. That is proprietary information, it's not given out to anyone who hasn't signed NDAs. We've had our ex-employees hired up by our competitors just to get that information, we know this, two of them actually had that information and we know they gave it to the competitor they were hired by after we fired them. And as soon as they gave that information out, they were fired, our competitor didn't want people we'd fired, they just wanted that intel. I got a call from one of our provider's rep asking why we'd told a competitor what we were paying shortly after that, that isn't allowed in our contract and she wasn't very happy with us for violating it. I was able to explain the situation and avoided a penalty charge against our company and them raising what we were paying, as per our contract. I used to work for one of the largest wholesale suppliers in the US for grocery stores, lots of NDAs in the onboarding process, and as the head of IT for them, I'm real aware of exactly how tightly all price information was controlled INSIDE the company. Prices were physically mailed to our customers, they weren't sent over the internet, and all of those physical lists were triple checked to make sure the right list went to the right location, gods help you if you sent the wrong list to the wrong customer, people got fired mistakes like that.

THAT is how the real world works, there's no sharing of information like you folks seem to think, no idea where people get that idea, unless it's from video games showing stupidly simple economies in action? Nah, that couldn't possibly be where that comes from....*looks at the thread*...oh...right.
 
Can we please stay on topic and not get into the details of real world limitations and processes in reference to a highly unrealistic video game? To attempt to make a galactic economy accurately in a 21st century game is impossible. The intricacies would be too complicated and vast to even begin to properly simulate. No, this is designed to be fun and not worthy of an economics dissertation.

The trade system should be fun. I find it hard to believe that anyone thinks that the in-game system is any fun, right now. It should be challenging, yes, but the current system replaces challenge with inconsistency and false hope. I gave up on it after about the 50th time the in-game system lost me 500 credits per ton. Since the system isn't sophisticated enough to simulate large corporations getting wholesale prices, I have to assume that it is a level playing field where prices are universal to all buyers/sellers. Given that, whatever NPCs are running those profit loss routes need to have a fat bounty on their heads b/c they are properly ruining the trade visualization.

Rather, I prefer see to see these robust trade tools as a sort of TradeNet for the Pilot's Federation, like GalNet. The challenge should come from what the game does best and that is piloting a spaceship. I want to see significant interaction with NPCs on high value trade routes. There should be many attempts at piracy but also strong support from security forces (in high sec areas). Collisions when fully laden should be very damaging.

But now I go off topic...
 
More third party options please.

The lore argument has been brought up quite a few times in the past. I personally think that the lore argument has gone out of the window the moment CQC has been introduced. An explorer in the middle of the galaxy can participate in CQC with others anywhere else in the galaxy. Hence its possible to communicate with each other over long distances instantaneously in the ED universe. But lets remember its just a game......

Some sites supply data lacking through the game interface and they are after all part of the community. On the other hand the game always had a pretty steep learning curve and that is probably what keeps some of us coming back to it.

Yeah OK. I think that third party site and one in particular are a valuable resource. I am a long term player but grinding away so you can afford the next ship is not game playing.

More pirates would be good too ;-)

Dave
 
I highly encourage FD to keep these APIs available for 3rd party developers. I've been saying they should make some kind of creation kit to expand the universe without increasing their workload. Look at games like Skyrim, years after completion, are still new and upgraded with a much richer world and the developers didn't have to do a thing but let the fans go to work. The online content really makes the world come alive.
 
I highly encourage FD to keep these APIs available for 3rd party developers. I've been saying they should make some kind of creation kit to expand the universe without increasing their workload. Look at games like Skyrim, years after completion, are still new and upgraded with a much richer world and the developers didn't have to do a thing but let the fans go to work. The online content really makes the world come alive.

I used to love 3rd party tools and API , then i took an arrow to the knee.
 
I have one question - maybe, just maybe people want to use trading info sites just because they are used to high profits all the time? I know, crazy idea, but that might be it. I played ED for quite some time today, I did about 10 trade runs, some of them brought minimal profit per ton, some of them where around 500 creds/per ton. Did some trade missions. Some trades along delivery ones. And what do you know, casually playing I got rank up and money up for 20% or around so.

It is enough? Good question.
 
I am really glad that I logged in and found this thread before I spent any money on the Horizons expansion.

I am an extremely casual player with less than 4 million credits and a moderately well built Asp. I have been playing the game since Beta and almost quit because trading was so frustrating. I was keeping Excel spreadsheets with data from every system and station I visited. Like I said, I almost quit but then I found TCE.

TCE made the game playable. I could care less about finding the most profitable routes or scratching out those extra 5% on my trades. For me, it was enough to have a log of the systems that I visited so that when I found a mission asking for Commodity X, I could go find Commodity X. The icing on the cake was knowing what to fill up on so that I could make a couple thousand worth of profit at the station that I had to buy commodity X from.

I just downloaded the game again after a good four to five months off, and now TCE is broken because EliteOCR is broken. It looks like Frontier intentionally obfuscated the graphics to make OCR extremely unreliable, and now they are refusing to support any sort of alternate methods to get the data.

I realize that I am just a single player, but I will not be buying Horizons because of this. I already spent close to $200 on an X55 setup for this game. I donated a fair amount of money to the developer of TCE because he built a good add-in. (Frontier, I would have purchased TCE through a Frontier store if you guys had your act together enough to offer such a product.) I paid for Beta access at a considerable markup over what the game eventually retailed for. There is no way I am going to continue supporting a developer who is tone deaf to the NEEDS of the community.

3rd party add-ons are not simple wants of a spoiled player base. They are the only thing that make a large portion of your open world viable. Either fix your galaxy interface so that players can buy trade data and get reliable reports about which station has the commodity that they need, or continue to support 3rd party trade add-ons until you do fix your game. Because right now, it is broken. I think I speak for a lot of the community when I say that we have been willing to put up with your broken game because we believed in you guys, and were able to, as a community, come up with work arounds.

I do not see any reason to continue supporting your company. In this twisted world that we live in, I am sure that there is someone in accounting who learns of players with attitudes like mine and thinks, "Great. We won't have to spend so much on EC2 instances when all of those players leave."
 
Last edited by a moderator:
3rd party add-ons are not simple wants of a spoiled player base. They are the only thing that make a large portion of your open world viable.

Nonsense. BH has been more profitable for months. Trading has been very medium level income as it is safest profession. What you want is printing money button. Not gonna happen.
 
Last edited:
I am really glad that I logged in and found this thread before I spent any money on the Horizons expansion.

I am an extremely casual player with less than 4 million credits and a moderately well built Asp. I have been playing the game since Beta and almost quit because trading was so frustrating. I was keeping Excel spreadsheets with data from every system and station I visited. Like I said, I almost quit but then I found TCE.

TCE made the game playable. I could care less about finding the most profitable routes or scratching out those extra 5% on my trades. For me, it was enough to have a log of the systems that I visited so that when I found a mission asking for Commodity X, I could go find Commodity X. The icing on the cake was knowing what to fill up on so that I could make a couple thousand worth of profit at the station that I had to buy commodity X from.

I just downloaded the game again after a good four to five months off, and now TCE is broken because EliteOCR is broken. It looks like Frontier intentionally obfuscated the graphics to make OCR extremely unreliable, and now they are refusing to support any sort of alternate methods to get the data.

I realize that I am just a single player, but I will not be buying Horizons because of this. I already spent close to $200 on an X55 setup for this game. I donated a fair amount of money to the developer of TCE because he built a good add-in. (Frontier, I would have purchased TCE through a Frontier store if you guys had your act together enough to offer such a product.) I paid for Beta access at a considerable markup over what the game eventually retailed for. There is no way I am going to continue supporting a developer who is tone deaf to the NEEDS of the community.

3rd party add-ons are not simple wants of a spoiled player base. They are the only thing that make a large portion of your open world viable. Either fix your galaxy interface so that players can buy trade data and get reliable reports about which station has the commodity that they need, or continue to support 3rd party trade add-ons until you do fix your game. Because right now, it is broken. I think I speak for a lot of the community when I say that we have been willing to put up with your broken game because we believed in you guys, and were able to, as a community, come up with work arounds.

I do not see any reason to continue supporting your company. In this twisted world that we live in, I am sure that there is someone in accounting who learns of players with attitudes like mine and thinks, "Great. We won't have to spend so much on EC2 instances when all of those players leave."

Totally agree! These things should be in game. +1
 
Last edited:
Nonsense. BH has been more profitable for months. Trading has been very medium level income as it is safest profession. What you want is printing money button. Not gonna happen.


People do not ask for iWin buttons or automatic money at login, they want
game tradetools that make sense, andi am tired of that knee jerk reaction "Traders want easy money"
No we want fun money, as much as like bounty hunters and HiRes fighters.

Right now trading is dull and 3rd party tools help a little with that, but i have seen here no one writing that they would not prefer Frontier adding functionalitie that replaces 3rd party tools ingame in ways that make sense (Market data and equipment data is no state secret and should be obtainable for an price for stations close by like 50 Lj radius and so on), tradecomputer collecting prices from markets visited and allowing queries and so on.

All stuff that very much goes in line with game play and does nothing much beside keeping computer desks free from mountains of paper.

And fixing trade data on ingame map would be nice too..... right now it is an disaster zone.
 
... but i have seen here no one writing that they would not prefer Frontier adding functionalitie that replaces 3rd party tools ingame in ways that make sense (Market data and equipment data is no state secret and should be obtainable for an price for stations close by like 50 Lj radius and so on), tradecomputer collecting prices from markets visited and allowing queries and so on.

NOTE: I'm not sure if I'm just repeating what you said in another way. If I am, I apologise.

I don't want to see in-game functionality completely replacing 3rd party tools. The variety of tools that are already available, and will become available (hey, I'm working on one too), allow for different ways of doing things depending on the preference of the player. I don't think that would ever go away. But I don't see a this-must-be-done-in-game solution as the answer.

That being said, I really don't understand the current in-game trade data implementation. It's not really "data" at all. There's no current price, deltas, rates, etc. It's just a list of destinations where a particular commodity has been sold to. From my understanding, it doesn't even need to be a trade that made a profit!

So, while I don't want a complete 3rd party tool replacement, there needs to be something better than there is currently. I am also for FD providing a more robust and supported means (e.g. API) of obtaining certain information.

My comments here are not a complaint about the current state of the game. Just observations. I love ED. I love Horizons. In fact, Horizons has proven to be somewhat of a setback to my development in ways. Too much time playing ;). It has given me some great ideas for additional tool functionality, though.
 
My main point is that we should have tools that make sense ingame.
One of them adding a new line of trade, that of data trade, you sell trade data you collected to stations (or should they allow money transfer to other players).
We need out navigation computer to store trade data and make it possible to queryy it in a way that makes sense too.

All that would make sense, data has some sort of best before date this way, it all would add to immersion and make many ways of trading possible, even player interaction would be aided.

3rd party tools will never go away i think, with or without Api (I am pro Api for several reasons)

If not for the reason that there should be a player made data bank that collects ingame info, that alone would add to the game a lot.

The ingame trade data is an joke, i think everyone who ever used it agrees, and my personal opinion is that trading could be much more basing on skill and be much more interesting witht he right tools and the BGS done the right way.

Right now it is a sodden mess only 3rd party tools someway make bearable.

With horizons that does not add to my gameplay, i wait until they sorted out some sort of manual for the dune buggy, i always have to explode mine to return to ship because i did not manage to reenter ship yet witht he infos i have, infos Frontier should have put to gether into an manual that makes some sort of sense.
 
People do not ask for iWin buttons or automatic money at login, they want
game tradetools that make sense, andi am tired of that knee jerk reaction "Traders want easy money"
No we want fun money, as much as like bounty hunters and HiRes fighters.

However, a third party tool doesn't fundamentally change the fact that you still have to haul the goods from point A to point B (of course). The fact that you don't necessearily know *exactly* what price you'll get when you get there, it's just a trader risk (maybe an NPC just dumped a load of your commodity on the market, dropping the price). HiRes fighters have similar risks in "accidental fire" on authority vessels, that gets in the way of how they make money too? We see the same kind of complaints from them of how it shouldn't happen. Chances are though, an Agri Economy will want computers, an Industrial one wants food and drink. That's 99% good enough, a profit = probably.

One of them adding a new line of trade, that of data trade, you sell trade data you collected to stations (or should they allow money transfer to other players).
We need out navigation computer to store trade data and make it possible to queryy it in a way that makes sense too.

There's a data sharing issue (on the servers) as potentially that's a "large" volume of data.
So also for in-galaxy realism, you'd have to be talking about a specific Data Request;

Say you're at a nav beacon, 200Ls from the station (very not far right?). That's 200 light seconds for the station to recieve your request for market prices (request travels, speed of light essentially, radio). Another 200 seconds for the reply to get back to you, totalling 400 secs (6 minutes 40s). You're already almost better off going to the station? For another station, 1000Ls out (still not all that far) two way data transfer time is 33 (point three) minutes, you can probably be docked in less than five.

Not saying this request shouldn't be a thing (I'd like it; send request, go exploring until you get reply + immersive, or call from outside the station without docking, though don't forget real life server issue, renamed "security check" or something for the game) but not necessarily a massive massive trading advantage and I think rightly, FD brought planet landings instead for their first major expansion, as a question of general gameplay development, priority.
 
Last edited:

wolverine2710

Tutorial & Guide Writer
I am really glad that I logged in and found this thread before I spent any money on the Horizons expansion.

I am an extremely casual player with less than 4 million credits and a moderately well built Asp. I have been playing the game since Beta and almost quit because trading was so frustrating. I was keeping Excel spreadsheets with data from every system and station I visited. Like I said, I almost quit but then I found TCE.

TCE made the game playable. I could care less about finding the most profitable routes or scratching out those extra 5% on my trades. For me, it was enough to have a log of the systems that I visited so that when I found a mission asking for Commodity X, I could go find Commodity X. The icing on the cake was knowing what to fill up on so that I could make a couple thousand worth of profit at the station that I had to buy commodity X from.

I just downloaded the game again after a good four to five months off, and now TCE is broken because EliteOCR is broken. It looks like Frontier intentionally obfuscated the graphics to make OCR extremely unreliable, and now they are refusing to support any sort of alternate methods to get the data.

I realize that I am just a single player, but I will not be buying Horizons because of this. I already spent close to $200 on an X55 setup for this game. I donated a fair amount of money to the developer of TCE because he built a good add-in. (Frontier, I would have purchased TCE through a Frontier store if you guys had your act together enough to offer such a product.) I paid for Beta access at a considerable markup over what the game eventually retailed for. There is no way I am going to continue supporting a developer who is tone deaf to the NEEDS of the community.

3rd party add-ons are not simple wants of a spoiled player base. They are the only thing that make a large portion of your open world viable. Either fix your galaxy interface so that players can buy trade data and get reliable reports about which station has the commodity that they need, or continue to support 3rd party trade add-ons until you do fix your game. Because right now, it is broken. I think I speak for a lot of the community when I say that we have been willing to put up with your broken game because we believed in you guys, and were able to, as a community, come up with work arounds.

I do not see any reason to continue supporting your company. In this twisted world that we live in, I am sure that there is someone in accounting who learns of players with attitudes like mine and thinks, "Great. We won't have to spend so much on EC2 instances when all of those players leave."

Currently there are three tools out there (EDMC,EDAPI and EDCE - which started it all) which use the iPhone companion api, they are also called OEF tools (OCR Error Free). Most if not all tools have output in the form, of an EOCR compatible .csv file. ED Market Connector (EDMC) is very frequently updated and DOES have .eocr output. You can use it to feed TCE with market data. All tools have an entry in EDCodex.

Update: I know for a fact that there more OEF tools out there but those authors have kept it private.
 
Last edited:
<<snipped some>>
There's a data sharing issue (on the servers) as potentially that's a "large" volume of data.
So also for in-galaxy realism, you'd have to be talking about a specific Data Request;

Say you're at a nav beacon, 200Ls from the station (very not far right?). That's 200 light seconds for the station to recieve your request for market prices (request travels, speed of light essentially, radio). Another 200 seconds for the reply to get back to you, totalling 400 secs (6 minutes 40s). You're already almost better off going to the station? For another station, 1000Ls out (still not all that far) two way data transfer time is 33 (point three) minutes, you can probably be docked in less than five.

Not saying this request shouldn't be a thing (I'd like it; send request, go exploring until you get reply + immersive, or call from outside the station without docking, though don't forget real life server issue, renamed "security check" or something for the game) but not necessarily a massive massive trading advantage and I think rightly, FD brought planet landings instead for their first major expansion, as a question of general gameplay development, priority.
We have p2p and hard disks, very little of that trade data stuff needs to actually go over Frontier servers, trade data you collect self goes direct nto your hard disc, no real issue there, only some commands regard " buy that data" and such has to go over Frontier servers, so basically a few hundred bits at most.

Regarding communication times, we have FTL communication ingame (Galactic news anyone) but i would be already quite ok with sending an request for trade data while in 10km radius of a station.

My optimum in tradeing would be like
-your nav computer collects stations data you visit (modules ships commodities+Prices
-you can search and query that data (all offcourse data at the time you collected it) for routes (show me high low price of that commodity and where to buy sell) that would be very much an realistic thing, you can do the same with pen and paper but hey, we are in 3300 we use computers to write stuff down and then search trhough that data)
-There is still some risk (prices change in meantime so one should always refresh that data ...

-If we could trade with other players you could even sell data, age of it would determine an higher or lower price, it could even be you only sell copies and get less money per deal or make it an special one where the data you sell is erased from your "ships computer". If Frontier absolute does nto want players trading with each other you sell to the station as 3rd party dealer of data packets.

All that would i think for many people make 3rd party tools obsolete and add a lot to immersion and fun of gameplay.


It is not somethign very hard to code i think, you cache some data on the players hard disk and allo some search functions over the ships UI, nothing that was not done a few million times in a lot of computer code.

BGS needs an overhaul, I serious tried to use only ingame tools for trading and way to often things became very magical regarding demand and prices.

Then, 3rd party tools are not an iWin button, you stil need to use your brain, they are convient though (I do not drown in paper/need no second computer/tab all the time for and back to read prices and note them in exxel or so)

Fact is trading in Elite involves so much data that pen and paper becomes rather complicated and computer aid in analysing it rather mandatory.
 
Hey guys,

Now that the holidays are gone, just a quick reminder that our letter should reach the right people at Frontier and we are now waiting for a reply.

Fly safe.
 
Status
Thread Closed: Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom