I don't know why the third party devs bothered writing open letters to FDev when you obviously can provide definitive answers on their behalf.
Discussion Open Letter to Frontier Developments
- Thread starter AnthorNet
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I don't know why the third party devs bothered writing open letters to FDev when you obviously can provide definitive answers on their behalf.
My point here, that you seem not understand, is to underline the universe incoherence of this game based on its hypothetic lore and time.
Btw, You are ok without trading computer but it doesn t bother you to use the route planner.
People are really full of paradox...
You mean the A to Z plotter? A planner where you could tell your ship where to go would be awesome and make sense without breaking any gameplay dynamics. I'd much prefer that.
People aren't necessarily full of what you imagine.
The paradox is that two people can look at the same thing and arrive at different conclusions (vase, faces, both, or neither). That doesn't mean that it isn't understandable, though. Player feedback is all well and good, but in the end it's up to Frontier to decide how to make their game and follow through with it, and for us to decide whether or not we want to play it.
At any rate, I can agree that the game might do well enough with somewhat different trading mechanics. However, I don't think the game really needs them.
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IF my ships computer would store the market data of all stations i visited at the time i visited them AND allow me to query it for deals (maybe like THUDDS site does, just with the data I harvested myself) i would
not bother with third party apps.
It would be logical and immersive (i am a trader, i gather data and sit on it so others do not find that sweet deal)
On the other hand this would allow an new trade, that of people flying around in small fast ships gathering data and selling it to other players ! Fresh trade data of places you never visited! yumm!
My opinion is that Frontier allows a lot of rather easy to implement game play mechanics go to waste there.
Trade data is saved on my computer in an cache, no costs for Frontier.
I can buy trade data from other players (We have p2p that should work out without straining the Frontier servers no?) (oops we can not transfer credits, too bad..._)
Anyways, as long it is me copying by hand trade data into exxel or drowning in paper notes (and then sitting and figuring out price differences with an pocket calculator... nah.. we are not living in 1980 folks, either give me the tools in game to collect data and analyze my self collected data in an logical way (with my ship computer (my PC elite runs on )) or give the third party sites an proper API.
Sitting there and making big data sheets on paper like in 1986 was because there was no other way really beside buying a second computer (to expensive for me) not because i loved to do so.
I want to plug trade data i aqquired self into an computer without any silly OCR and so on and then analyze it by statistics and so on in the proper way it is done today and not ruin a whole tree disolved in acit and pressed into thin sheets, that is not 3300 that is so 1980)
not bother with third party apps.
It would be logical and immersive (i am a trader, i gather data and sit on it so others do not find that sweet deal)
On the other hand this would allow an new trade, that of people flying around in small fast ships gathering data and selling it to other players ! Fresh trade data of places you never visited! yumm!
My opinion is that Frontier allows a lot of rather easy to implement game play mechanics go to waste there.
Trade data is saved on my computer in an cache, no costs for Frontier.
I can buy trade data from other players (We have p2p that should work out without straining the Frontier servers no?) (oops we can not transfer credits, too bad..._)
Anyways, as long it is me copying by hand trade data into exxel or drowning in paper notes (and then sitting and figuring out price differences with an pocket calculator... nah.. we are not living in 1980 folks, either give me the tools in game to collect data and analyze my self collected data in an logical way (with my ship computer (my PC elite runs on )) or give the third party sites an proper API.
Sitting there and making big data sheets on paper like in 1986 was because there was no other way really beside buying a second computer (to expensive for me) not because i loved to do so.
I want to plug trade data i aqquired self into an computer without any silly OCR and so on and then analyze it by statistics and so on in the proper way it is done today and not ruin a whole tree disolved in acit and pressed into thin sheets, that is not 3300 that is so 1980)
hhhmmm agree, Yet there is also, another side..view, point to consider here,and ,I think it is this.
What is EliteD /EliteDH trying to be?
a "sim' or a "game" or both.
for example, there is the 'general gaming' element ( shoot,kill. collect, reward, redo etc.)
BUt theres this part that's trying to be a 'sim' .. I,m out exploring at the moment. and this 'game' is the first game I've "played" where I have to watch the same screen for up to 10 minutes!.( YEs, I timed it .) I,m out exploring and there is a lot of systems .( try it) with secondary stars, which have to be travelled to ,to be able to scan them to claim "explored' 'tag' .It's madness, just watching 'sim-dust 'fly by for so long... It has nothing to do with instant gratification , It's a question of....is this reeaallly what I want when I turn on to 'play'?..a static screensaver. And whats with this 'advanced scanner'. why does it have to be so close to start? And that too takes soooooo long to complete.
IT'S a Game? ( cut down the time.) allow 3rd party add on's if you want to use them .do,if not. then don't... your choice.....it's a game..
.
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or ...............is it a sim?
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Well there was talk of eventually being able to do micro-jumps to cover those long distances wasn't there, so it would help if they implemented that. However, that would render the Hutton Orbital run moot, and given the popuarity of that, there's probably an argument for not having micro-jumps I guess.
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the most ridiculous thing is that you can already buy trading data for systems from stations for the nearest systems that have 24h expiration time but are raw i don't see how having prices for them is against the "lore" Jesus ppl seem to be completely confused nowadays arguing just for the sake of argument......a trading computer would just implement on an already present mechanic why is that wrong only the confused "loremongers" know
agree with this completely, but the market is just one area where properly developed API's could really help with ED.
That said, if external 3rd party tools are such a big part of ED, and I'm not saying they are or they are not, I've used one or two and certainly at the start they were helpful to find things and to at least have some guidance to avoid ending up in a dead end, but, if they are useful, then switch them all off.
Show FD that the response in this thread, which I think is more than you could have hoped for given how poor FD seem to be right now, is nothing but a pointless acknowledgement. Turn off each and every 3rd party tool web site and lets see every Commander post here that they want them back on, show FD the numbers for real, let them see players walk away. Go on strike for a few weeks, bring the
IMO FD are going to have to change this year, the way they appear to be going about things recently is simply not going to work out well enough to sustain ED and I fully expect that change will come.
All I need is a list of things in High demand in a system I am not in. And a list of things in High supply.
That is literally all it takes to make trading very profitable without the use of any third party tools. This is what "purchasing trade data" should be about. Instead of doing nothing at all.
Find a system with a high demand for Beryllium? Look at nearby refineries, obtain trade data until you have high supply. Got your one way trip of guaranteed high profits right there.
See a high stock of Marine Equipment on that system? Check agricultural systems nearby where they have high demand. Then ferry the best priced food from that agricultural planet to the refinery.
Bam, there you have a three stop trade route with profitable trades on each stop. Assuming they fix the broken supply and demand for food.
We don't need APIs for this, and I certainly don't really like the idea that a 2500 cr/t round trip is just a mere mouse click away on those sites. Finding good trade routes should be a task on its own, not something spoon fed by the hive mind. Good trade routes also need to come to live frequently for traders to discover them. Some systems have been sitting on low supply of what they're producing and low demand of the stuff they need to produce SINCE LAUNCH. That is terrible. Absolutely terrible. Those systems should have collapsed economically by now.
I think they're called... "Christians." At any rate, it isn't polite to stereotype people based of their religion.
And with that, I bid this thread farewell.
Enjoy.
Personally i stay away from those websites, because they make my game way too easy. That's also the main reason why those tools are not officially supported. The main reason that they are being tolerated is to keep a part of the customer base happy and not angry. The game also doesn't have anything better to offer and who knows the market and backend item management might change making these websites pointless anyways. As long as the markets remain static they will have a function, but when that changes the whole circus implodes.
Maybe in the future the game will become more detailed, but keep in mind that these 1-click-best-answer tools are not the holy grail for everyone.
Maybe in the future the game will become more detailed, but keep in mind that these 1-click-best-answer tools are not the holy grail for everyone.
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This is basically what I always thought we'd actually get in game. I've said many times that I never expected that my site would have any use beyond alpha maybe beta at the latest. Decent trade tools in game that we could gather our own info and query was pretty much what I wrongly assumed trading would be. I'd be happy to see better trade systems in game so I didn't have to spend all my play time maintaining my site (as much fun as it is) and actually spend a bit more time in my spaceships.
Trading really needs a reworking, it's pretty rubbish as it is. It should be a case of looking at the game world, inferring from experience, game world knowledge and map cues what you can trade. Sadly the in game tools are still horrible, information on the map is sketchy, trade routes are usually wrong and most of the goods aren't worth trading.
I didn't say anything of the sort. The thread topic is specifically about the technical aspects of providing these tools. The OP has asked that this bickering not take place in this thread.
I don't know... seemed pretty clear to me. He doesn't specifically mention trading tools, but it is in reply to an open letter from the developers of trading tools...
Sorry, do I know you? I wasn't aware that we were "buds". There is absolutely nothing to stop you opening a thread to discuss whether or not we should use these tools, but it's frankly rude to ignore the OPs request to have not have this discussion here.
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There is regular ftl communication in Elite lore. At least in all of the books that I've read. As to whether or not it's expensive, I'd imagine cost wouldn't be a factor to the equivalent of the New York Stock Exchange.
Anyway, I'll be bowing out of this thread. There's been enough OT bickering in it already. If you want to make another thread, I'll happily discuss it with you there.
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The problem I see with that approach is that it would be more likely to add an "I win" button to the game than any of the player-driven 3rd party sites, since it has access to correct real-time data. So the most profitable trading routes suggested by the system would be the most profitable trading routes in the game. No exceptions - unless the data is deliberately altered and/or constantly fine-tuned in order to get to the current state of things.
I also have the impression that the harshest critics of the 3rd party *trading* sites have never used them.
You get a list of profitable trading routes. Those are not the most profitable trading routes in the game, since the data they're based on is incomplete and sometimes outdated. I've found better/closer/more efficient routes, without searching for that needle in the haystack.
I just don't want to *grind* the ones I have til I drop dead from boredom, so I use the routes suggested as an incentive to travel to some other part of the bubble.
And yes, the trading data in-game is kinda rubbish. I've hauled stuff from a station that explicitly exports it to a station that imports it according to in-game data ... at a loss. Maybe issues with the rng/seeding/calculations, but it's rather annoying.
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This is basically what I always thought we'd actually get in game. I've said many times that I never expected that my site would have any use beyond alpha maybe beta at the latest. Decent trade tools in game that we could gather our own info and query was pretty much what I wrongly assumed trading would be. I'd be happy to see better trade systems in game so I didn't have to spend all my play time maintaining my site (as much fun as it is) and actually spend a bit more time in my spaceships.
Trading really needs a reworking, it's pretty rubbish as it is. It should be a case of looking at the game world, inferring from experience, game world knowledge and map cues what you can trade. Sadly the in game tools are still horrible, information on the map is sketchy, trade routes are usually wrong and most of the goods aren't worth trading.
Couldn't agree more. I am, predominately, a trader - I actually really enjoy the experience of trading between systems and looking out for other Cmdr's who may be in T6's, T7's, etc....but the actually trade information is woeful and I hate that most stuff isn't viable and just "fillers". I also have limited time to play so your tool has been hugely useful in giving me at least some idea of where to start - usually I find my own route but not without some help to narrow down the options. It needs a massive overhaul and I really wish Frontier would look at this (and missions as well) rather than keep releasing new stuff. Trading was always a core function and could be really fleshed out. Hey - got a special deal on some Lathian Grubs, they turn a good profit but better keep them a secret otherwise every pirate will be sniffing for you (i.e. certain items attract more pirates but turn a better profit) or radioactive materials that have to go to certain refineries and you only have x time to do it. Mix it up with some low risk items too for the newer players.....some interaction with the merchants on the stations would be great wouldn't it, bit of haggling even? The current system really lets the game down and if Frontier won't fix it - bring on the APIs.
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This is basically what I always thought we'd actually get in game. I've said many times that I never expected that my site would have any use beyond alpha maybe beta at the latest. Decent trade tools in game that we could gather our own info and query was pretty much what I wrongly assumed trading would be. I'd be happy to see better trade systems in game so I didn't have to spend all my play time maintaining my site (as much fun as it is) and actually spend a bit more time in my spaceships.
Trading really needs a reworking, it's pretty rubbish as it is. It should be a case of looking at the game world, inferring from experience, game world knowledge and map cues what you can trade. Sadly the in game tools are still horrible, information on the map is sketchy, trade routes are usually wrong and most of the goods aren't worth trading.
Sorry, but what? There's HOW many thousands of populated systems in the bubble total? How many Outposts, Stations, and now, ground based Stations and Outposts, which as you've probably noticed, REALLY threw a spanner in prices, supply and demand all around the bubble when they were added. Imagine what will happen when we get atmospheric planets with bases, then the Earthlikes with bases... And you think we should just be able to look at the game world and figure out who needs what where? This isn't WoW, that's literally impossible to do in Elite Dangerous as there's just TOO many sources and demands for that. Add in the BGS, which is working btw, I'm seeing prices change based on demand and lack thereof, and your statement is just...bartender, whatever he's having, stop selling that.
I've worked in the wholesale industry, I know that the data they have isn't shared with anyone outside the company, what they bought and how much they paid and what they are selling it for, that's protected information, it's NOT for anyone outside the company, and it's often restricted to who gets to see it inside the company. We didn't know what our competitors paid for the same products we carried, we could guess, but that was it without getting someone inside their company to get us that information, and believe me, that was a thing, spies and sabotage is not the stuff of fiction in corporate reality, it's very much part of doing business. Before people start telling us HOW the real world works, why don't you go check out how it really works, cause those of us who KNOW, we're wondering what the hell you people are talking about...everyone should have access to this data...yeah, right, no way in hell is that going to be happening.
WE, in this game, are members of the Pilots Federation, we do not work for the corporations or governments, we may do work FOR them, but we are not their employees and are not privy to their databases. FTL comms aren't commonplace, GalNet is owned by the Pilots Federation and that's it, they control it, and it's a news service mainly, other data pertaining to the functions of the PF are also transmitted on it, bounties on members, dangerous areas, etc, but prices and supply/demand, not part of that data except in snapshots that we, the members, provide of the various stations we visit, and that's the data we can buy while docked. Who imports what and to where within a very short range, no prices, just who's moving what where. The corporations, private companies and governments don't share their trade data with the PF, after all, the PF operates outside of all their controls and influences, something that rather annoys them all.
So, all these so called Traders who keep demanding that they be given this information, and people like yourself who think it should be provided to them, not a clue amongst you it would seem, as you've got no basis in reality for these demands nor any basis in the game's very own lore for them.
Despite that, I still support your request and your works, I know the effort it takes to create these tools, and I see the passion and drive that makes the community bigger, better and richer from that, and I see no reason to deny that and indeed, I want to see it furthered and nurtured by FD. I understand FD's reticence on the subject, it's not fitting with reality or the lore, and the security issues on FD's end are really quite something, which is something that keeps being totally ignored. Michael has flat out denied people the ability to scrap data, there's a list of apps that aren't allowed to be mentioned on FD's forums or used in the game, and so far, FD hasn't helped the tool makers at all, they've actually hindered you folks. THAT is very telling to me, it means that support from FD directly is not going to be forthcoming. They may continue to ignore what's being done, within limits, but that may be the BEST you can hope for. I hope they give more direct support, or at the very least, allow for 'indirect' support by allowing devs in the know to talk with the tool makers PRIVATELY about what they could do to get better information. So, I'd suggest you PM some of the devs responsible for the information you are seeking, ask if they can help you off the books, I've seen it done before, I've done it myself as both a modder and a dev, doesn't hurt to try that route....
To your first paragraph, all you've done is highlight that the system as it is, is a roll of the die. There is no skill, no gameplay element outside of a gamble (and in game experience confirms this) in the trading game. Grope around in the dark for a few hours or days or weeks until you hit the jackpot of the trading game, then all you have to do is hope no one else finds it and crushes it. If it runs out, just wait, it'll bounce back...wooooo....dynamic!
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To your second paragraph, the commodities market has nothing to do with wholesale prices of goods between commercial competitors, the commodities market isn't like the corporate business procurement world, it's an open stock exchange done with tangible goods rather than bank accounts. Trading in elite is comparable to day trading on the NYSE...for which there is a ticker along the bottom of every news broadcast, a daily report in every newspaper and information accessible at every moment via google. You can be assured that if the stocks had to be traded in paper, physically from A to B, the information would be accessible much more readily because of the built in delay.
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To your last, even if FTL comms aren't common (haha) a corporation could make ridiculous profits by owning a fleet of sidewinders to go check prices at every station and relay them around the galaxy. Without breaking a sweat you could do the entire inhabited galaxy in a few hours by gathering all the data, returning to a central point and relaying it out again. Universal data would be no older than 6 hrs if the pilots took their time! So why if FTL comms (that every ship in the galaxy has to receive the news with, unless you want to tell yourself you're buying a different ship from the one the NPCs do) are so uncommon, does not a universal trade-o-graphics exist? Because that's a business opportunity I'd like to trademark right now.
There has been a group of us from the start who have stated that either a full API needs to be developed and released ALA CCP and yeah I know people don't like 'Eve' being used as an example but saddly when it comes to Community, API and Data exchange you can't really hold up any other MMO at all with the same type of access.. OR Frontier Development need to actually start adding better methods into the core game.
People are 100% right in pointing out that if you had 100's of ships moving goods between 1 station and another that those stations are going to have at least some basic data even if that data is a few hours / days out of date.. things like what the last known price of goods at each near by station was for example should be 100% visible int he commodities market but there not.. the most we got was that weird 'oh this place buys it' method.
The various websites are doing their best with the mess of an API we have to fill this roll, before the API we did it exactly the method we would above or people hacked the data.. Frontier didn't want that happening 'stress on the server' now we could go into how this in part is given most of the original guys where using basic packet reading to get their data which means oh yeah that data is already being sent by Elite, but on the other hand FDEV did have a point in that packet manipulation tends to end up being the way 50% of MMO gamers 'Cheat' so they asked for it to stop and people stopped they went to the OCR and manual entry methods.. and then finally we got the API.. and the companion app.. for the mac phones (I've not seen any notice that Android finally got one).
Boils down to the community is finding holes in the Development of the game and doing the work themselves, just like we would have had the original 'MODDING' ability been left in the game as promised back in kickstarter..
Yeah there will be those who are 'oh lore' in the end as pointed out above, lore can explain it.. the data's never 100% here and now up to date anyway, but the other one is that this is a game...
I honestly think that right now frontier's forgetting that they could easily use the demand for more data IN GAME as an IN-GAME money sink monthly/weekly subscription to the pilot-federation trade datanet. *shrugs* but again this is about the API and the fact that too date FDEV continues to not learn how to communicate it takes 5 minutes to ask a question of the dev's and another 5 minutes to write an answer, apparently of late that is 5 minutes too long and the community is suffering for it.
People are 100% right in pointing out that if you had 100's of ships moving goods between 1 station and another that those stations are going to have at least some basic data even if that data is a few hours / days out of date.. things like what the last known price of goods at each near by station was for example should be 100% visible int he commodities market but there not.. the most we got was that weird 'oh this place buys it' method.
The various websites are doing their best with the mess of an API we have to fill this roll, before the API we did it exactly the method we would above or people hacked the data.. Frontier didn't want that happening 'stress on the server' now we could go into how this in part is given most of the original guys where using basic packet reading to get their data which means oh yeah that data is already being sent by Elite, but on the other hand FDEV did have a point in that packet manipulation tends to end up being the way 50% of MMO gamers 'Cheat' so they asked for it to stop and people stopped they went to the OCR and manual entry methods.. and then finally we got the API.. and the companion app.. for the mac phones (I've not seen any notice that Android finally got one).
Boils down to the community is finding holes in the Development of the game and doing the work themselves, just like we would have had the original 'MODDING' ability been left in the game as promised back in kickstarter..
Yeah there will be those who are 'oh lore' in the end as pointed out above, lore can explain it.. the data's never 100% here and now up to date anyway, but the other one is that this is a game...
I honestly think that right now frontier's forgetting that they could easily use the demand for more data IN GAME as an IN-GAME money sink monthly/weekly subscription to the pilot-federation trade datanet. *shrugs* but again this is about the API and the fact that too date FDEV continues to not learn how to communicate
it takes 5 minutes to ask a question of the dev's and another 5 minutes to write an answer, apparently of late that is 5 minutes too long and the community is suffering for it.
Let each player play this sim the way he/she chooses 3P tools are not a requirement just available for those that want the additional functionality. The op has had his tread turned into some kind of battleground.
The basic premise seems to have overwhelming support, my advice close this tread and put it to a vote. The results of such a vote would have real value to Frontier. I,m sort of over this debate too much OT Agro from the conformists for my liking, - now you got me doing it - sorry you know i love you all but at this stage i have all the info/opinions i need. Lets see some numbers.
I vote for a vote if possible.
The basic premise seems to have overwhelming support, my advice close this tread and put it to a vote. The results of such a vote would have real value to Frontier. I,m sort of over this debate too much OT Agro from the conformists for my liking, - now you got me doing it - sorry you know i love you all but at this stage i have all the info/opinions i need. Lets see some numbers.
I vote for a vote if possible.
Why do people keep using the Stock Exchanges as examples here? We aren't buying and selling stocks in companies, we're buying and selling wholesale goods, very different things totally, you can't compare the two. I can see how much WalMart's stock is selling for, but I can NOT see what WalMart is spending on their products. Do you see the difference there?
FTL comms aren't commonplace by lore, gameplay mechanics are what they are, but by lore, no, it's not commonplace. GalNet is a Pilots Federation creation, they control it, no one else, and it's only for use by members of the Pilots Federation.
The rest...look, I get it, people want the instant win button this offers for Traders, which is exactly what it is. Your first paragraph describes how trading in Elite always worked in the past games and in the lore, remember? You meant it as a joke but you actually made a factual statement.
Again, I support this initiative, I support the 3rd party tool makers, I may not agree with their aims and the uses their tools will be used for, but I support them none the less.
I know that I will repeat myself, but I must emphasise it again - API AND 3RD PARTY SITES ARE NOT JUST ABOUT TRADING. Denying the requests for any official API just because someone consider trading data on 3rd party sites as cheating/not a way how the game should be played/whatever is simply very shortsighted. What about powerplay data? System information? Commander's statistics? Flight logs? Community goals? A lot of stuff can be simply taken from official API if it will be accessible there, everything beneficial for the community and we do not need to say a word about market prices. So the question and point isn't if market data outside the game are good or bad, but if official API providing more broader range of game information is good or bad.
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