Question about combat logging. Would love some feedback.
- Thread starter Miko
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Frontier Developments has yet to remove players' ability to combat log. Why (and don't say it's because of the P2P construct)?
Because its impossible. Unless they put a guard physically next to every player to prevent them from pulling the plug...
It is possible, it just takes programming and knowledge of the TCP/IP stack. If they pull the plug, the next device up the chain reports a [RST] or reset. You can tell if it was something under the players control, like gear at their house, or if it was lost farther up the chain.
You would have to be very cautious about it, and maybe even send a nice email saying "Hey, we noticed your router keeps failing, but only when you are in combat... you should get that looked at."
That is not really preventing it, is it? Can you detect anomalies and use statistics to calculate the probability of CLing? Sure, thats what FD means with 'using telemetry to investigate exploitive behavior'. People have received mails, and even have been banned. But they cant actually prevent it. There is nothing FD can do that prevents CLing, and the very nature of statistics prevent a very hard line to be taken. You cant ban someone 'because our analysis reveal a significant chance of exploiting having taken place at alpha=.05'.
That is not really preventing it, is it? Can you detect anomalies and use statistics to calculate the probability of CLing? Sure, thats what FD means with 'using telemetry to investigate exploitive behavior'. People have received mails, and even have been banned. But they cant actually prevent it. There is nothing FD can do that prevents CLing, and the very nature of statistics prevent a very hard line to be taken. You cant ban someone 'because our analysis reveal a significant chance of exploiting having taken place at alpha=.05'.
You can only prevent by deterrence, which is what they are doing.
That is not really preventing it, is it? Can you detect anomalies and use statistics to calculate the probability of CLing? Sure, thats what FD means with 'using telemetry to investigate exploitive behavior'. People have received mails, and even have been banned. But they cant actually prevent it. There is nothing FD can do that prevents CLing, and the very nature of statistics prevent a very hard line to be taken. You cant ban someone 'because our analysis reveal a significant chance of exploiting having taken place at alpha=.05'.
Banning is a fairly heavy-handed solution anyway. It'd be better off to just offer in-game disincentives for combat logging, such as automatic loss of ship.
I compare to the game Animal Crossing for a solution a lot (not that I think many here would have played it), because it handles a similar problem well. AC is meant to simulate living in a village, and thus punishes people who reset the console without saving in order to undo bad choices. Best I can tell, they do this by changing a file when you start up the game to indicate such (there's a save screen right after selecting your character). Later, when the game is saved, I believe the file to be changed again to mark a graceful exit. Thus, if the game ever loads and the file is found already checked, the game knows the player had reset without saving (and they get a progressively longer chat with a mole character for each reset).
The same could be applied to Elite. When the player enters combat (defined as when the 15 second waiting period to quit is in effect), mark a file on the hard drive. Exiting combat through any normal means (High or Low wake, graceful quit, etc) would un-mark the file. Should the client launch and find the file already marked, it would know that a disconnect or ungraceful exit happened during combat and take appropriate action (notifying the server and displaying the insurance screen, for example). Thus, the issue is handled client-side, with no need for an arbiter. Since detection is at least nearly 100%*, banning for logging is not necessary and a lesser in-game punishment can be used. While the attacking player (if there was one) still wouldn't get anything out of the log, players would be much less likely to combat log if it meant an automatic destruction anyway.
The only remaining factor for a system like this is what to do about players with connection issues. Though it's not necessarily a popular opinion, I personally believe that playing in open should mean agreeing that you have a stable connection enough to do so; connection drops in a PvP game often hurt the experience for more players than the one dropped alone, and it's not uncommon for PvP games to have a punishment for quitting. A warning system of some sort could certainly be put in place without compromising this proposed solution, but as far as I'm concerned the solution for less reliable connections should be Solo or Private. While combat logging can be considered an exploit, it's biggest harm to the game is in Open. Thus, if only Open had this solution in place, combat loggers and those with unstable connections alike would notice no difference in Solo and Private groups.
*Tech-savvy players could probably find the file used to mark combat fairly easily, and either back it up or lock it from editing. I used marking a file as an example here, but there's nothing to say that it couldn't be hosted server-side and adjusted or checked when the client requests. Alternately, randomly choosing one of several file locations throughout the user temp folder and regular location changes could possibly mitigate cheating. I'm sure there are other ways to solve this, too.
Eve Online did it you log your ship doesn't if in combat. Used to log out when their Titans got beat down ...
Easy. In the eighties is was all solo play. And for solo play its called a "saved game" feature where if you don't like what has happened then load your previous save. Something that FDev have apparently forgotten about.
But for PVP games this problem of combat logging is almost always associated with poor game design / mechanics: games with severe imbalance or a recovery that involves intense grinding. So players choose to log instead of face the imbalance. I'd say E D suffers from exactly this.
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In open - you really only see other CMDRs in starter areas, or as part of community goals. The universe is huge and the player base is concentrated in some areas, particularly known starter systems. It's rare to see other CMDRs once you head out of the core areas.
In Solo, your only real concern is NPCs. And if they are regularly killing you, it's time to consider what it is you are doing, and what decision making has gone into ship fit out.
Combat logging is specifically, with intent, to force disconnect from the universe to avoid loss incurred because of PVE or PVP actions. It doesn't really matter if it's an NPC or another CMDR; ultimately it's an act of avoiding an outcome for the sole purposes of avoiding penalty and loss.
Please don't do this.
Using 'panic' as an excuse is just that. We all make challenged decisions under duress, but powering off a computer mid-session isn't really a panic move. You would not do this unless you knew exactly what it would do. So it's not really an unplanned action.
Instead, seek guidance from experienced players on how they might fit-out a ship, or recommendations in avoiding damage and total loss. In particular, if you are mining in named locations (such as the various RES sites) then there are some serious issues with this approach.
To finalise your "accidental" claim by then explaining "..penalise combat logging" I have to presume you desire to play Elite: Dangerous with zero risk. This really then means you are, frankly, seeking community acceptance for continuing poor behaviour. So, far from panic, but rather for it (combat logging) to become an accepted norm.
"I'm sorry dave, I can't do that."
If you have genuine grievance for a ship loss - contact support. Combat Logging to avoid penalty is frowned on by the developer, removes repercussions and is, frankly, a bit of a move. Please don't do this.
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I don't think that is possible, your ship isn't stored on servers. If your computer goes down, your ship is gone. Going that way with ED would require a massive dumbing-down of combat/flight calculations, the current system would be a total disaster. A dice/stat-based system could work, but that would mean ED has to stop being a space-sim and become more of a general space-themed mmo-kinda game. You could massively increase the player limit per instance in that case but still, screw that...
Well Caldric get s a plus 1...I actually have had this happen to me while playing...didn't combat log...but I dumped...my ship didn't...I died a horrible death...my pilot well he got a new body as he is immortal.
Now the downside...instead of people feeling FD is to harsh with how they handle CL'ing with bans, they would get the same crowd whining...apologies...complaining about, losing their ship...they got logged...they logged...its not fair....at least this way...FD has taken and drawn a line in the sand and has backed it...hey if its an accident...they get it...everyone gets it...if its a repeat offender...like those PK'ers that bite off a real fighter who loves combat...and says oh damn I messed up...and poof...nope...you got it coming...see ya...find a new game to terrorize new people...etc...etc...or for the guy who doesn't want to loose "The Precious"...their proclivities eventually form the pattern...and harsh or not...well they get it coming...if someone where to have erratic modem behavior, router issue, IP gone wonky issue, I'm sure that thru a solid case...that FD would understand.
This particular debate is an ongoing debate ...and sluet can probably confirm this as others to...in multiple threads...definitely a topic that devides folks...
What I find funny...the only ones yelling fowl or to harsh...people that don't worry bout logging...are fine with how it works...that's odd...who cares if its solo, group, or open play...its discriminating and classifying different parts of the ED community to say..well if you are playing this way or this way its ok...but if you do it in open it isn't. That's completely asinine. then we got to break it down further...well if you are in open play and engaged in pve environment its ok....or engaged in pvp you don't want to be in its ok...
What FD is gave a ruling on something and enforcing it equitably across all modes of play...regardless of the situation...minus the bug and or equipment failure.
The consequences that are incurred is strictly from voluntarily dumping...not from equipment or bugs.
there is no good way to stop it that will please everyone...the ones that don't got nothing to worry about...but that was stated earlier....the ones that do...well...some may film ya...and turn ya in...not gonna waste my time really...but don't cry when FD does something about it...they give warning...heck other threads give warnings...doesn't matter if we all agreed...or completely disagreed in our opinions...FD retains the rite to refuse service basically...they have a legal rite to do so...our legal rites only come into the picture when we adhere to the rules they set forth to play...most games have rules on how and how not to use their software...MMO's, single player...they all do...WOW, EVE, SWTOR, STO...these guys will ban your accounts for other infractions...EVE for instance...warns against "buying" your stuff off third party people...you know the credit farmers and ship farmers...they will go so far as first infraction taking it all and sending you a warning against further infractions...the others listed tend to do the same thing...all for good cause...people getting their accounts hijacked and what not...
certainly different circumstances...very much different for their reasoning...but under the same guise...we have all accepted the terms of use agreements....whats there to gripe about...legitimate reasons are not punished...they give back whats lost...its the loopers that are fussing...those searching for the loopholes....how many playing commanders really even worry about this?...its only a worry if its done...if not we ain't loosing no skin.
Now the downside...instead of people feeling FD is to harsh with how they handle CL'ing with bans, they would get the same crowd whining...apologies...complaining about, losing their ship...they got logged...they logged...its not fair....at least this way...FD has taken and drawn a line in the sand and has backed it...hey if its an accident...they get it...everyone gets it...if its a repeat offender...like those PK'ers that bite off a real fighter who loves combat...and says oh damn I messed up...and poof...nope...you got it coming...see ya...find a new game to terrorize new people...etc...etc...or for the guy who doesn't want to loose "The Precious"...their proclivities eventually form the pattern...and harsh or not...well they get it coming...if someone where to have erratic modem behavior, router issue, IP gone wonky issue, I'm sure that thru a solid case...that FD would understand.
This particular debate is an ongoing debate ...and sluet can probably confirm this as others to...in multiple threads...definitely a topic that devides folks...
What I find funny...the only ones yelling fowl or to harsh...people that don't worry bout logging...are fine with how it works...that's odd...who cares if its solo, group, or open play...its discriminating and classifying different parts of the ED community to say..well if you are playing this way or this way its ok...but if you do it in open it isn't. That's completely asinine. then we got to break it down further...well if you are in open play and engaged in pve environment its ok....or engaged in pvp you don't want to be in its ok...
What FD is gave a ruling on something and enforcing it equitably across all modes of play...regardless of the situation...minus the bug and or equipment failure.
The consequences that are incurred is strictly from voluntarily dumping...not from equipment or bugs.
there is no good way to stop it that will please everyone...the ones that don't got nothing to worry about...but that was stated earlier....the ones that do...well...some may film ya...and turn ya in...not gonna waste my time really...but don't cry when FD does something about it...they give warning...heck other threads give warnings...doesn't matter if we all agreed...or completely disagreed in our opinions...FD retains the rite to refuse service basically...they have a legal rite to do so...our legal rites only come into the picture when we adhere to the rules they set forth to play...most games have rules on how and how not to use their software...MMO's, single player...they all do...WOW, EVE, SWTOR, STO...these guys will ban your accounts for other infractions...EVE for instance...warns against "buying" your stuff off third party people...you know the credit farmers and ship farmers...they will go so far as first infraction taking it all and sending you a warning against further infractions...the others listed tend to do the same thing...all for good cause...people getting their accounts hijacked and what not...
certainly different circumstances...very much different for their reasoning...but under the same guise...we have all accepted the terms of use agreements....whats there to gripe about...legitimate reasons are not punished...they give back whats lost...its the loopers that are fussing...those searching for the loopholes....how many playing commanders really even worry about this?...its only a worry if its done...if not we ain't loosing no skin.
actually you could only save in station...and it did it very much like this one...you didn't get multiple save slots in the original...woe be tide to the jameson that did not have insurance when flying out or use the escape pod....time to start over....or at least what I remember of it...it has been a very long time...there are some old videos floating about on load your commander y/n....didn't get multi save spots...try saving in middle of space...not happening...FDev didn't forget it...its what it was even in single player....lots of old timers keep telling people over and over...that damn game was tough....it was...and very unforgiving...ie ...it was challenging...more so than now...sorry if this sounds rude but the truth is...most don't know what a challenge is any more...games became to PC...even ED is ALOT easier than any of its other iterations...everyone wants to be a winner...they want games to make em that...it isn't happening...
I know, I know just another old timer...trust me when I say this...you try landing in a wire frame space station without a landing computer...with the controllers they had then and keyboard...and combat?...go ahead...give her a go...thargoids...you best just run...don't forget your escape capsule if you can afford it...oh lets not forget the really grand cockpit view and how it set you up for knowing what was where...or how all the hollow stuff kinda looked the same til you got close enough...yup its the best they had then...
most every game out or that comes out...has exploits programmed into them...within a week its on the net...and then people do what people do...use them...how many times did a mission get reloaded because it was failed...how many times did you reload a saved character or particular spot in any number of games because you died...couldn't get past the boss...etc...etc...
this doesn't reward that kind of play...its far from iron man...but it does have its risk...without it...it would get shelfed by those that want a challenging game environment...whether its pvp or pve ...or heck they just want to swim in a sea of credits.
Most games had a save game...some didn't...starwars xwing series...more of last mission complete...if you loaded...you back to where you left off...wing commander...well it had saves...lots of em, elite...not so much...other "space sims" of the ones I can remember...yup saves...but one thing that set elite apart from the others...was the challenge and the possibility of loss...not only being one if not the first...its always been the toughest to deal with. that is fact...go look for yourself...better yet...give her a try with a little 9 pin joystick and a keyboard...im sure you will find the challenge in it somewhere.
Peace Commanders...im gonna go grump over here with my lavian brandy and tree grub.
Deleted member 102790
D
I agree 100% with point 1 on the basis that I hung out for months in Open at HIP 20277 and only found people who wanted to wing up with me or do consensual pvp.
Point 2 - I have never combat logged but could not care less if someone did it - even if someone attacked me then did it so what? For me it seems just surreal that someone would care enough to be ashamed or even feel so strongly about it that they would actually advise another person that they should feel bad about it.
Back on the MSX most games I played had no save function. Come to think of it, none of them had. You had those obscenely long games like Castles (Excellent) where you just had to finish it in one go. Since I never was allowed to play for more than 30 minutes a day I never got far in any of them.
El Dragoon!
Banned
permabans for loging? dude thats harsh,
ild say -50% cash deducted from in game account and a 30min ban for each offense
and if your account is at 0 credits its a 10 hour ban
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Do as you see fit OP. It's your game and you paid for it. If you can't stomach losing hours, or even days of progress, by all means press the button, pull the plug or whatever.
Don't let these white knights pressure you into playing the game the way they want you to play it. It is YOUR time and YOUR money invested. Don't forget that.
Don't let these white knights pressure you into playing the game the way they want you to play it. It is YOUR time and YOUR money invested. Don't forget that.
Not trying to rain on your parade, but you can get banned for that. I think its only fair he is at the very least warned of that.
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You should have seen Blizzard back in the day. Posted a forum message that MapHack (which allowed you to do raids faster) were not allowed. Then half a year later or so, in one single swoop, they disabled the cd-keys of tens of tousands of Diablo 2 users.
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El Dragoon!
Banned