Small Combat Ship Concerns

Oh man guys... You are really irritating me... I'm not saying to balance the combat of the eagles/vipers... I'm saying that if they are fighters, medium/large size ships should not be able to catch up to them. It's just unbalanced for those who just like to play the eagle for the looks, or those who can't afford more because they're bad. It only makes sense that they would be faster than a big bulky ship.

Maybe the word 'Combat' in the title is throwing everyone off? :D

I get what you're saying, and it's make sense at a certain scale, but for now what we have in ED is just not able to accept that type of scale.

Imagine, the Small ships able to do 500ms, the mediums 400, and the large only 300. The uproar from the Large and Rich would drown the forums. But it would be cool to see.
 
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some month ago, i needed to find a way to clear my claims tab. i disliked to selfdestruct, so i outfitted an eagle, and took it to a high intensity RES. but unluckily came back for ammo with more bounties , than the a-class eagle costs. pve i can now take out anacondas in an eagle, especially with the help of system security or rocks. today i took an eagle for planetary exploration - no ship flies a canyon like an eagle (beside a courier), and it can land where your can't land with an Asp (tested).

so, if we talk pve, the eagle is far from being "useless". sure, you can collect bounties more "efficient" in a vulture, or FAS. but, you don't have to.

can't say much about the viper - i only flew it for some hours. but i saw videos of pvp combat - stealth build viper, FAOFF viper, where really amazing pilots could take down FAS, or Anacondas.


btw.: i just made the experience last weekend, that running a lot of missions of every kind, my (beloved) cobra gets everything done faster than my (beloved) python. the python is simply overpowered 90% of all time. okay, you can clear out a distress call. want to run missions? get a cobra.... and there is no content ingame which you can't experience in a cobra. you should be able to get into an a-class cobra (my two cobras are 11 mio each) in 20 hours, but can be done much much faster. anyway, i don't see a necessity in elit dangerous to upgrade behind that point.


if we talk pvp, as others in this thread have pointed out, a wing of small ships can be deadly (to the point of shield down/ highwake out)- and i think, that's balanced. i see no reason why a single small combat ship should be as threatening as a big combat ship.
 
Thats not the same. I can't believe you started at p2w thread but don't understand the basic concept of p2w. P2w is using real currency to buy a major shortcut or advantage.
 
a wing of small ships can be deadly

Conversely, why should it not be the same in pVe? In other words, just as a single eagle should not stare at a Conda in pVp, why should it be able to in pVe. *I'm not talking about using the NPC furball to your advantage, flying well, staying in the blind, and game stories*

Game Design. Of course every ship has to be able to be Played to some extent.

So we have balance in the Combat role of the ships (well not really, but lest imagine), now what would it be like if the Small Class ships had a natural speed++ over the Large Ships.
The LGShip on the other hand, could easily swat any SMLS that got caught within it's bubble of death. But it is --Slower on the pure m/sec. Roll/Yaw should be the same imho, or just - of avg.

Medium Ships of course would kind of fall in the middle of both, at least until 1 Billion Credit SuperLarge ships become a class of their own in Season 5
 
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I you want a fast attack ship that flies like an Eagle but kicks butt like a Vulture, rank up with the Empire and buy an Imperial Courier .. job done.
 
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P2W can be used as a different term. Just like FPS can be used in 2 different ways.

We can use a term in many ways. We should hope to use them in the ways our audience is most familiar with, otherwise we risk miscommunication and have chosen to use our term poorly.
 
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P2W can be used as a different term. Just like FPS can be used in 2 different ways.

No. You don't get to redefine commonly understood terms to suit your prejudice. Skill up, save credits, and get yourself one of those larger ships. By the time you get into one, hopefully your combat rating will be expert or better and you will certainly feel like you earned the larger ship that can swat the small fighter like the fly it is.
 
smaller combat ships to a point are better the ai dont target them as often.

for trading the smaller cargo ships are better at..... not so leagle things.

exploring pretty much platues at asp. then again unless you go outward away from the center of the galaxy you dont need a huge jump range.
 
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I don't think there is much of a problem and certainly the small ships are not useless.

First, you have to differentiate between PVP and PVE.

In PVE anything goes:
I would not consider myself a pro player, however, I have been around since Premium Beta and I flew a long time in my Sidewinder back then, which, once A-rated, could take out anything up to an Asp Explorer 1 on 1.
Today, with an 3.5 million A-rated Viper I can take out AI Anacondas no problem and make millions in a Haz Res. Sure, with a Vulture you can do it faster. With a large ship even faster but that is about it. It is only about how fast you can kill, not about being able to kill at all. Once you got a few combat tricks down you really don't need to upgrade above a Viper/Cobra/Courier if you don't want to.

PVP is a different animal:
First you will need a dedicated PVP configuration which might differ greatly from a PVE configuration and I agree, that if all else being equal, especially pilot skill, the large ships are at an advantage (like they should be).
However, there are plenty of videos on Youtube of pro pvp players where they take out superior ships in PVP with Vipers or a Diamondback Scout. So, it does come down to skill. I have seen vids of Viper pilots taking out Vultures and Pythons and just check the thread in here started by Jesse30 with his Diamondback Scout. So I don't agree that skill is not a factor, however, you need to be a pro having mastered power management, FA off use and thruster use. If you are an average joe pilot you are right, a Viper doesn't cut it in PVP.

Regarding speed: Courier, iEagle and Viper boost around 400, Cobra in a combat fit with armor and such around 430 so no problem here. I do agree that the normal Eagle could use more speed, other than that my personal experience has been that small ships can get away just fine.
 
I can't believe that people just refuse to understand what the OP is saying. He is talking about a single aspect of small ships:

SPEED

That's it. He's not saying smaller ships need to be able to take out larger ships, he's not talking about balance, he's not talking about firepower, maneuverability, tactics, anything. He's just asking for more speed.

And yet lots of the replies are about prices, wings, loadouts, comparisons with real life airplanes, grandma's socks and whatnot.

In a combat situation, an Eagle will more often than not be destroyed when encountering a larger ship. The larger ship's matching speed and instahit lasers completely negates the Eagle's size. So why is it in the game? Why was development time wasted into modeling it, making that sweet engine sound for it? Who is going to use the Eagle for more than 10 minutes to complete that Shadow delivery which will pay for the next big ship to replace it?

The point the OP is trying to make is that an Eagle could potentially be useful if, while doing it's own thing against other small ships, it were AT LEAST able to run away from a large ship when it spawns.
 
I understand that credit progression is important guys, I do. But I'm saying that even if you are a great pilot, the ship is just completely ineffective if you never want to upgrade. That's my concern. Eventually everyone will be flying around in only FAS, Condas, Clippers, and Corvettes.

And before any of you nitpick my post... saying "Well people will use other ships for exploration/trading..." Yeah, I know. I'm strictly talking about combat.

Given roughly equal player skill, a bigger combat ship WILL beat a smaller one, as a general rule. That is exactly how it should be.

However, smaller ships can beat bigger ones if the pilot is good enough. Backwards flying does break this against the eagle or vulture because they are too slow, but try a DBS, it is fast enough to get behind backwards flyers, and still extremely agile.

It isn't easy, but a well flown DBS has a chance against bigger ships, just not a big chance. However, multiple DBS fighting together in an organised fashion will usually destroy any larger ship. Exactly how it should be.
 
I can't believe that people just refuse to understand what the OP is saying. He is talking about a single aspect of small ships:

SPEED

That's it. He's not saying smaller ships need to be able to take out larger ships, he's not talking about balance, he's not talking about firepower, maneuverability, tactics, anything. He's just asking for more speed.

And yet lots of the replies are about prices, wings, loadouts, comparisons with real life airplanes, grandma's socks and whatnot.

In a combat situation, an Eagle will more often than not be destroyed when encountering a larger ship. The larger ship's matching speed and instahit lasers completely negates the Eagle's size. So why is it in the game? Why was development time wasted into modeling it, making that sweet engine sound for it? Who is going to use the Eagle for more than 10 minutes to complete that Shadow delivery which will pay for the next big ship to replace it?

The point the OP is trying to make is that an Eagle could potentially be useful if, while doing it's own thing against other small ships, it were AT LEAST able to run away from a large ship when it spawns.

Yet he states that both the Eagle and Viper are useless. I agree that the Eagle is to slow and can use better boost speed but the Viper? When it comes to speed Cobra MK III and Clipper are king but they are followed closely by the Viper, Imperial Eagle, Imperial Courier and Diamondback Scout which all boost around 400 +/- a few meters/second.

But yes, the standard Eagle is pretty slow...
 
Oh man guys... You are really irritating me... I'm not saying to balance the combat of the eagles/vipers... I'm saying that if they are fighters, medium/large size ships should not be able to catch up to them. It's just unbalanced for those who just like to play the eagle for the looks, or those who can't afford more because they're bad. It only makes sense that they would be faster than a big bulky ship.

You talk about balance then you say it's not about balance... Seems you just want some form of agreement to justify the P2W fiasco from the OP...

P2W with in game currency, in 33 years that s a new one on me and gave us a laugh in the office so thanks for that! :D

What you seem to fail to even consider at any point in the OP or in replies is the balance of progression. This is about time invested into the game and what you have gained in that time as a reward. If you had played for a year, had a billion credits and all the ships you want/expect to feel that you have a strong ship to use for combat, you expect to have the biggest guns. Now if all of a sudden you find that a little blip of a ship can match you blow for blow you are going to get angry real fast with good reason.

It's basic game mechanics progression=reward.

In the same manner if the noob in his Viper attacked some Code member (Careful choice of words there ;)) he'd better expect to loose due to the member having played PvP or 'RaM' since they could hold a controller. You fail to consider skill of the pilot also, big mistake.

You also fail to think about the truckers - you're entire argument falls over. Ever faced a T9 in a little fighter? It really isn't much fun blowing up such a big ship, one of the biggest in the game in the smallest ships in the game but it happens all the time.

As for saying small ships should be faster why? Not once have you put forward any argument at all about this statement...

Small car small engine - big car big engine... Could it be a power to mass thing or would that make to much sense?
 
Hey guys, been recently thinking about this..

I've been playing a lot of ED over the past week, and I've noticed that eagles and vipers are pretty much useless once you upgrade to bigger ships. I don't want to say it's unbalanced, it's just weird.

From my experience, no matter how good of a pilot you are, if you are in an eagle facing a ship with more firepower, 8/10 you will lose (you guys can claim that's not true, but one slip up will end you), not to mention 2v1s are absolutely impossible regardless of skill. So basically what I'm saying is, this is turning into an in-game currency p2w game.

Wouldn't it make sense that smaller ships should be able to outrun the big ships? Like I know for a fact the fer-de-lance can catch up to an eagle and mass-lock it so it can't escape. Would it be bad game design to allow small combat ships to go faster than a medium all-rounder ship?

What really bothers me is when I'm trying to get around a player in a big ship, but his speed is just so much better with boost that he just boosts away, tanking my hits, then spins around while still going the same speed, and since he has more firepower, I'm gone. For it being the "most successful ship in history" isn't very successful

For some reason there's always way more people who think it's absolutely natural that bigger/pricier ship should have every possible advantage over smaller/cheaper one. I've been suggesting same thing as you a lot of times - but it gets buried under outraged grinders cries (they crabbed for thousands of hours to get to the biggest invulnerable ship - that was their end game and their joy).

Now you've made a slip by calling buying an ultimate ship for a load on in-game money a p2w - and thus your actual point will get buried under heaps of arguments about this unrelated thing.

For fun combat there's only one choice now - CQC (but only at times you get matched with players of your skill level, which is rare). There you can circle around huge sidewinders and eagles in your tiny condor or iFighter and easily outrun them. And you can hide behind proper cover - which is never the case in main game for some reason (even on planets).

Anyway, I support your point - I also want every ship (including sidewinder) in main-game to be better than others in one way or another. And definitely up for idea that small ships should have way more speed and maneuverability than big ones right now.
 
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Hey guys, been recently thinking about this..

I've been playing a lot of ED over the past week, and I've noticed that eagles and vipers are pretty much useless once you upgrade to bigger ships. I don't want to say it's unbalanced, it's just weird.

From my experience, no matter how good of a pilot you are, if you are in an eagle facing a ship with more firepower, 8/10 you will lose (you guys can claim that's not true, but one slip up will end you), not to mention 2v1s are absolutely impossible regardless of skill. So basically what I'm saying is, this is turning into an in-game currency p2w game.

Wouldn't it make sense that smaller ships should be able to outrun the big ships? Like I know for a fact the fer-de-lance can catch up to an eagle and mass-lock it so it can't escape. Would it be bad game design to allow small combat ships to go faster than a medium all-rounder ship?

What really bothers me is when I'm trying to get around a player in a big ship, but his speed is just so much better with boost that he just boosts away, tanking my hits, then spins around while still going the same speed, and since he has more firepower, I'm gone. For it being the "most successful ship in history" isn't very successful

A single Eagle on its own is no match for a larger/better ship but in a wing of 8 they can be terrifying. They are quick and agile whereas larger ships tend to be stronger but slower.

Sounds like the other player is simply a better pilot than you and has mastered the art of the FA off 180 degree boost turn manoeuvre.

Part of the skill of playing is for you to judge when it is worth while fighting or whether it is best to run. When I was flying my Eagle when I first started out I knew I couldn't comfortably take on anything larger than a Cobra without getting a bloody nose. As my ships got better so did the upper range of ships I could tackle. Now in my Vulture I can take on an Anaconda but only if he has no friends with him or there are other friendlies in the fight. Recently took on a wing of 1 Anaconda and 2 Vultures. I was victorious but was heavily damaged and limped to a nearly station for repairs. The moral of the story is to not let pride cloud your common sense!
 
I agree with OP. The eagle could do with a small speed and acceleration buff.

My wingmate and I have parked our vulture and FAS and are flying around causing mischief in eagles now, because they're much more exciting to fight in. Also taking on players flying medium and large hulls feels a lot more fair if we're in small ships.

We're fully HRP-fit, which improves survivability a lot. We tried railgun fits but there's not enough ammo to kill more than one big target, so run multis instead, and I have a beam laser for shield stripping.
We mainly hunt in haz-RESes, because there's no police response and therefore are the safest places to be :)

We tend to practice on NPCs until other players turn up, then attack the players.
Against NPCs the trick is to never let them face you: stay on their back and boost whenever they boost to stay with them. If you lose concentration and let them get to over 1km away then they will turn to face you and make your task more difficult :)
You can pick apart their subsystems quickly, and after their power plant is at zero it's just a matter of sitting still with the trigger held down for a few minutes (thinking of an enemy anaconda here as the ship that takes longest to kill).
There's no NPC that you can't solo in an eagle. The FAS will give you a run for your money though!

Against players it's trickier: if they manage to pull range then use silent running to lose their lock on you.
Work with your wingmate to alternate between going defensive and offensive.
Use the rocks of the RES for cover if necessary.

It's tough, yes, but with the greater challenge comes greater satisfaction!
Also the rebuy on a <2mil ship costs next to nothing :)
 
I don't get it, why should a ship just because it is small be able to out run a bigger ship?
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Do you see a Spitfire as being able to out run a F-111 or a Tornado?
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These starter ships are just that and they are not supposed to be able to take on bigger or more capable ships.
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What they are for is for winging up where 4 can definitely cause problems for a more capable ship on its own
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OR
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You take them off on your own to a lo-res and learn the ropes.
 
I don't get it, why should a ship just because it is small be able to out run a bigger ship?
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Do you see a Spitfire as being able to out run a F-111 or a Tornado?
Real world analogies don't really help. The real world doesn't have a hard speed limit of 400-ish metres per second.
Try game analogies instead.
Eg. in EVE a frigate class hull is faster than a battleship class.
In the X games a small fighter is faster than a medium or big fighter.
In Planetside 2 a Max suit is slower than the less armoured classes.

Why would these other games choose to give a speed benefit to the less-armoured options?
Could it be to give players a reason to choose these weaker-but-faster options and provide variety?
Sounds good to me!
 
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