Got that CV1 finally.

[Kevris]

Some of us are counting on you to make or break our purchase in 21 hours, lol. Thanks for this!

Drex

I would not let someone attempting to "hack" a pre-release device to work on an out-of-date SDK/workaround/etc be any kind of a deciding factor on whether or not you pre-order tomorrow.

The only valid questions here are: "When you're not moving your head, how is the fidelity of the image compared to previous iterations," "How would you compare the comfort of wearing CV1 to DK2 (or DK1)?" and "How greatly have they reduced the feeling of 'tunnel vision' in CV1 compared to DK2?"

The important things to remember are that the developers have CV1 hardware and SDK 1.0 in their hands, and have since late last month (at least) I would even wager that our friends at Frontier have perhaps had it a bit longer as their game is the best "available now" showcase for the tech. Everybody is working to get everything updated to work with the final SDK and hardware release.

Keep in mind, too, that the pre-orders tomorrow don't ship tomorrow, and we still don't know when the actual shipping date is going to be; all you're doing tomorrow is getting in line.

If we take what we "know" (the experience in DK2) and then know that the experience in CV1 is better, it would be a smart move to pre-order if you're not wanting to wait months to get your hands on the release product.

No I don't work for Oculus.

 

[ghcannon]

I would not let someone attempting to "hack" a pre-release device to work on an out-of-date SDK/workaround/etc be any kind of a deciding factor on whether or not you pre-order tomorrow.

The only valid questions here are: "When you're not moving your head, how is the fidelity of the image compared to previous iterations," "How would you compare the comfort of wearing CV1 to DK2 (or DK1)?" and "How greatly have they reduced the feeling of 'tunnel vision' in CV1 compared to DK2?"

The important things to remember are that the developers have CV1 hardware and SDK 1.0 in their hands, and have since late last month (at least) I would even wager that our friends at Frontier have perhaps had it a bit longer as their game is the best "available now" showcase for the tech. Everybody is working to get everything updated to work with the final SDK and hardware release.

Keep in mind, too, that the pre-orders tomorrow don't ship tomorrow, and we still don't know when the actual shipping date is going to be; all you're doing tomorrow is getting in line.

If we take what we "know" (the experience in DK2) and then know that the experience in CV1 is better, it would be a smart move to pre-order if you're not wanting to wait months to get your hands on the release product.

No I don't work for Oculus.

Never did think you work for Oculus, however you are incorrect when stating visual fidelity on the device shouldn't be discussed as it will miraculously dramatically increase with shipping of 1.0 runtime. It won't. And you can be sure of that. We can see some better tweaked software correction mechanisms but the harsh reality is that what I see now in front of me as general visual quality of the HMD will be almost identical to the released deal. And trust me I hate to say it.
And just to be explicit here, I am talking about quality of the image with the HMD at rest.

I agree with all other points you raised and will answer them for you

"When you're not moving your head, how is the fidelity of the image compared to previous iterations" - It was already fine in DK2, however CV1 boasts barely any black smear and eliminated chromatic dispersion.

"How would you compare the comfort of wearing CV1 to DK2 (or DK1)?"
CV1 is many times better in that aspect than even a DK2. It's so lightweight it's scary ..

"How greatly have they reduced the feeling of 'tunnel vision' in CV1 compared to DK2?"
Say what ? Are you refering to the generally low horizontal FOV of the devices ? Or the FPS motion 'hack'?


The final software will definitely benefit in a great many ways. That is why I'm not even attempting to judge most of the other factors when playing with the hmd I have. You won't see me compain about latencies, tracking precision, sound etc.. since those are things that really can and likely will see a bigger improvement at release date.

But there are still some particular things in the visual department that are fairly obvious to be at close to their release quality, be it even a first release.

Working with shaders and graphics in general helps to spot these.

 

[Kevris]

Never did think you work for Oculus, however you are incorrect when stating visual fidelity on the device shouldn't be discussed as it will miraculously dramatically increase with shipping of 1.0 runtime. It won't. And you can be sure of that.

Thanks for the feedback. I don't think you understood my post as I never said the visuals on the device shouldn't be discussed, it was actually my first question framed in a way to eliminate the software-related issues that are going to crop up because of the lack of SDK 1.0 (how does it look when you're not moving, phrased that way to ensure we're not talking about tracking being off, latency, etc). You'll note I also specifically quoted someone who stated your experience was going to dictate their pre-purchasing the device.

I'm glad to hear the device is more comfortable.

The tunnel-vision I'm referring to is indeed the narrow field of view: when you have DK2 on, it could be compared to wearing swimmer's goggles, looking through binoculars, etc.

For the black smearing, did you make the gamma adjustments from one of the stickies at the top of the VR board? That made a tremendous amount of difference in my DK2 expereince

 

[FryingBullet]

Hmmm - I own a DK2 and have tried the Vive a few times with ED.

I wasn't massively impressed with the Vive - peripheral vision for me felt more like binoculars than the DK2 - although others have reported this to be opposite to what they feel in the Rift. I wear glasses and it may be accounted for by better accommodation for glasses in the DK2 (can't be certain about this). It's not that the Vive was bad (it wasn't!) - it felt at least as good if not slightly better in other respects to the DK2.

So you think I'd be queuing up for the CV1 (and I certainly want to be).

But - and it is a big BUT - I don't get the sense that Oculus and Frontier are the best of buddies - which is surprising as I'd have thought Oculus would see FD as a flagship. Unfortunate thing is, that when you are backed by Facebook, FD is an infinitesimal spec on an infinitesimal spec, infinitely small. Oculus are in it for the long game and probably don't see FD as strategic.

In contrast, it is clear that HTC and Frontier are smooching behind the bike sheds. The Vive is pitched at games (whereas the CV1 is a lifestyle thing, whatever that means). I've seen this with other software developers - and I'm pretty sure I can guess which technology is getting the attention in Cambridge.

Which of course is not to say that other factors might sway FD back towards the rift - a massive consumer base for a product that exists might end up being more attractive than a limited consumer base for a product that staggers in to the light of day.

Unfortunately what this really means is that VR as a consumer option for ED is broken right now. I don't know what percentage of ED licenses are linked to VR users, but I'm guessing that it's not enough for this to be a big deal - the HTC gives them their "halo" product that gets the punters in, but using their 19" monitors. I'm not having a go at FD here - they are a commercial organisation and are accountable to their shareholders for bringing in the bacon, not tickling the fancy of the few.

I am in a position where I could purchase both devices - I'm typically an early adopter - but will probably hang fire and take a closer look at an ultrawide monitor or 4K instead and pop in to the DK2 for a bit of deep immersion until the dust has settled a bit.

Clearly this is just a point of view - I have no privileged insight in to Oculus, HTC or FD - very interested in hearing other opinions on this.

Cheerio,

FryingBullet.

 

[ghcannon]

Thanks for the feedback....

I see.
Yes, my experience should definitely not affect anybody's purchase. However I see normalizing expectations as a positive outcome from sharing my experience. And since I assess myself as an objective person I thought it can be beneficial.

For the visuals at rest just refer to my last bigger post. To sum it up:
I wasn't expecting miracles with CV1, but was just hoping the softtech transcends the visuals beyond what the display can come up with. It has been achieved to a big extend but there's a limit to how much we can go with the current display and optics.

As for the horizontal FOV - it is in the ballbark of a DK2, but we've known that from the very beginning. In fact it's a bit lower afaik. I noticed it but it wasn't a dealbreaker. A fairly big reason for the lower FOV is to also get a good sweetspot.

The sweetspot I'm also slightly disappointed at - it seems to be no larger than 20° in radius. I was hoping for at least 25°. From then on, it seems quality falls off linearly as we move our eyes towards the edges.

I do hope to see software filter improvements, but the resolution is just something that can't change. And distant objects in Elite are still several shimmering pixels

Also, I didn't see any smear or whatsoever so no need to fix it. It seems however the output RGB values are desaturated. I'm not sure why that is. Haven't had time to try more today - will do tomorrow.

Signing off

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Hmmm - I own a DK2 and have tried the Vive a few times with ED....

In my personal opinion, there is very little doubt that ED will support CV1.
I don't know the intricacy of FD's problem with the new SDK but it can't be as bad as this. Oculus are not developing a niche SDK and Cobra is a robust and scalable platform.

The fact that there are issues now is completely overblown by doomsayers.

I also think CV1 will have better screens and/or optics than Vive judging by the companies backing them, time for development and such..

For me, personally, the Rift is the HMD choice.

 

[Lestenio]

The fact that there are issues now is completely overblown by doomsayers.

Indeed. It's in FDs interest to support all the platforms. I'm sure DB said in some stream or another that it was a technical issue with oculus, but people keep seeing shady deals.

I also think CV1 will have better screens and/or optics than Vive judging by the companies backing them, time for development and such..

Personally. I think anyone who has used a DK2 and played ED already is going to be disappointed when moving to the CV1 or Vive. We have too high expectations on improved resolution, and that becomes the centre of attention rather than the immersion. New VR users will be amazed however and blown away.

 

[Wolfox]

I feel all this is a troll conversation.

Keep it up

 

[ghcannon]

I feel all this is a troll conversation.

Please elaborate

 

[schurem]

ignore the troll and keep on ha}{0ring m8. Your posts are keeping me on the edge of my seat.

If you have time and bandwidth, would you please try the (free!) DCS world flight simulator? For me that is the second most important bit of software for VR. Its free on steam. You may want to enable the beta (1.5) version of it once installed.

What I am most concerned with is the readability of the cockpit instruments and gauges. Its ok if you have to lean in a bit to read em, but on DK2 they are illegible even if you get your nose right up to them. If you find out you like the sim, you might want to try some of the cheaper modules for it such as the F-15C and/or the A-10A (not to be confused with the utterly hardcore detailed A-10C).

 

[vodzurk]

What I am most concerned with is the readability of the cockpit instruments and gauges. Its ok if you have to lean in a bit to read em, but on DK2 they are illegible even if you get your nose right up to them. If you find out you like the sim, you might want to try some of the cheaper modules for it such as the F-15C and/or the A-10A (not to be confused with the utterly hardcore detailed A-10C).

This is what had me disappointed with the DK2 and selling it after a fortnight. Even after changing the HUD colours, it still sucked so bad to be a real pain when playing.

I'm hoping that knowing this news, with CV1 that FD will introduce a toggle to optimise the HUD... ie make the text bigger (and possibly the optimal colour if the sub-pixels are differently sized) when a CV1 is detected. Doing it for DK2 possibly couldn't have been worth it... paying a developer £££'s to change it, just to undo the effort (pay for it again) with CV1. As far as requirements go, if one requirement might go away of its own accord in future, then it's lower than other requirements that might bring in more cash.

 

[ghcannon]

ED will not scale the UI but instead will further increase the resolution of the offscreen render target into which the UI layer is rendered.

 

[vodzurk]

ED will not scale the UI but instead will further increase the resolution of the offscreen render target into which the UI layer is rendered.

Either way would be fine with me... so long as I can read the text.

Hopefully now that the goalposts are fixed for CV1 (assuming FD have SDK1.0), FD can increase the priority of implementing a solution.

Damn, I was so hyped this morning... and to find the text is still a PITA... *sigh*.

 

[Drexel Viehbock]

ED will not scale the UI but instead will further increase the resolution of the offscreen render target into which the UI layer is rendered.

Thank you so much for using your time to inform us. I have been waiting on a VR platform to invest in for a while. Almost pulling the trigger a couple of times when the DK2 was still up for grabs. I decided to wait it out. I have not even seen a DK2 or VIVE demo personally. My last VR experience was the VFX 3D system a lifetime ago. So, no matter what, I am SURE I will be impressed (CV1 or VIVE). I am going to invest in the CV1. If you had found a complete NO-GO with Elite, I would have held off.

Thanks again!

Drex

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I would not let someone attempting to "hack" a pre-release device to work on an out-of-date SDK/workaround/etc be any kind of a deciding factor on whether or not you pre-order tomorrow.

You might not, but I did...

 

[Lestenio]

@ghcannon


Have you changed your mind in any way now you have played around with it for a few days?

Also, is it made up of 1 or 2 screens

 

[Jake_blakeson]

This is what had me disappointed with the DK2 and selling it after a fortnight. Even after changing the HUD colours, it still sucked so bad to be a real pain when playing.

I'm hoping that knowing this news, with CV1 that FD will introduce a toggle to optimise the HUD... ie make the text bigger (and possibly the optimal colour if the sub-pixels are differently sized) when a CV1 is detected. Doing it for DK2 possibly couldn't have been worth it... paying a developer £££'s to change it, just to undo the effort (pay for it again) with CV1. As far as requirements go, if one requirement might go away of its own accord in future, then it's lower than other requirements that might bring in more cash.

I did some research into this issue with the DK2 and from what I read about the screen technology a lot of the text blurriness and readability issues can be contributed to the actual screen that Oculus used in the DK2. The screens they are using in the DK2 were actually used on some cellphones but later dismissed by cellphone makers because they appeared blurry and hard to read. It has something to do with how the screens process pixels, I believe the pixel layout of the screens is, instead of RGB, is RGGB. The idea was that your eyes actually process more green then red so by adding a 2nd green pixel it would work more like your eyes do. Unfortunately that is not how it turned out. ED was designed with orange\red HUD, before DK2 was released, and FD had no idea that Oculus was going to switch over to the new screens, so the worse color combinations were used in game for the DK2.
I speculate that after the DK2 release Oculus knew they had made a foopar but had released the DK2 to developers anyways so they could work on developing software for VR with the promise that the new screens they were going to release with the CV1 would fix the readability issues.
This is how I understood what I found when reading thru developer forums for the DK2, if any of this is wrong, feel free to chime in I would love to better understand the process.
The good news is the CV1 is not using the same screen technology as the DK2 and I hope, fingers crossed, that the new screens fix the issue.

Also from what I have read the runtime 1.0 has only been rushed out to certain software developers along with the CV1 so they can get their games ready for the release. Does the OP have runtime 1.0 ? or is he running on runtime .8 ? That could make some difference in performance.

 

[carabassa]

I think that runtime 1.0 can make a great difference not only in performance but for example adapting the image to the new optics (size, shape, chromatic aberration), things that with 0.8 and steamVr may not be taken into account.

 

[ghcannon]

@ghcannon


Have you changed your mind in any way now you have played around with it for a few days?

Also, is it made up of 1 or 2 screens

I ruined my PC while trying out with 0.6 SDK. Read more here

Trying to revive my PC now. Will test more and share experiences. Also - it turns out I may not need to give back the HMD until at least March Dont hate me. My primary reason for having it is, after all, coding for it. So that'll start very soon.

As for the displays - I've no idea I can't tell from outside and I certainly don't want to do any hardware alterations on it - it isn't really mine after all

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I did some research into this issue with the DK2 and from what I read about the screen technology a lot of the text blurriness and readability issues can be contributed to the actual screen that Oculus used in the DK2. The screens they are using in the DK2 were actually used on some cellphones but later dismissed by cellphone makers because they appeared blurry and hard to read. It has something to do with how the screens process pixels, I believe the pixel layout of the screens is, instead of RGB, is RGGB. The idea was that your eyes actually process more green then red so by adding a 2nd green pixel it would work more like your eyes do. Unfortunately that is not how it turned out. ED was designed with orange\red HUD, before DK2 was released, and FD had no idea that Oculus was going to switch over to the new screens, so the worse color combinations were used in game for the DK2.
I speculate that after the DK2 release Oculus knew they had made a foopar but had released the DK2 to developers anyways so they could work on developing software for VR with the promise that the new screens they were going to release with the CV1 would fix the readability issues.
This is how I understood what I found when reading thru developer forums for the DK2, if any of this is wrong, feel free to chime in I would love to better understand the process.
The good news is the CV1 is not using the same screen technology as the DK2 and I hope, fingers crossed, that the new screens fix the issue.

Also from what I have read the runtime 1.0 has only been rushed out to certain software developers along with the CV1 so they can get their games ready for the release. Does the OP have runtime 1.0 ? or is he running on runtime .8 ? That could make some difference in performance.

You are correct about the pentile pixel arrangement of the DK2. But we've known that since we got our hands on them. You're a bit behind

I don't know what the pixel layout of the CV1 is - can't really check as I don't want to open it.

I tested with runtime 0.8. I honestly don't think anybody has 1.0 yet since it just isn't ready. But you did give me an idea - I'll ask tomorrow if there's a newer dev. version.

 

[ghcannon]

Continuing the saga

Just revived the PC, put the old drivers and tried again with 0.6 runtime - no juice.
The HMD is simply not getting picked up by the service. Neither is the base station.

Going back after the hack with SteamVR. Have a chance to see how it is with the older drivers.

 

[Asp Explorer]

If you want to check the pixel layout, maybe get it to display a monitor test screen (you know, the multicolored and greyscale gradient ones) and look at the lenses using another lens.

 

[ghcannon]

Don't have another lens in the house. Neither me or my GF wear glasses.
In the same time I'm thinking whether I'm allowed to reveal tech specs like these ... tbh probably not :s