Horizons FDev, please talk to the active PVP community.

[Etherimp]

First and foremost, let me say that I think FDev has made a beautiful and fun game with Elite: Dangerous. My main activities in the game include power-play and Player-vs-Player, but I fully respect some peoples desire to never get shot or destroyed or "grieved". I feel if people want to avoid PvP, they should be allowed to. I understand that a percentage of the community (possibly a large percentage) have no interest in PewPew at all, and they only want to explore/trade/play in private group/solo/whatever.

That being said, I also feel like the direction this game has taken with PvP is kind of sad, considering it is by far one of my favorite aspects of the game. I've recently been putting together PvP classes for new players within the Power-play community, and a lot of people who come out and learn and engage in wing vs wing or 1v1 combat say it's the most fun they've had in the game so far.

There is also a relatively small and tight knit community of hardcore PvPers in this game. Smiling Dog Crew, Adles Armada, CODE, etc.

What I would like to see (and what I am suggesting), is for some of the Frontier development team members to sit down and get involved in a discussion about game-balance from a PvP perspective. Games like Counter-Strike and League of Legends are very successful, long lasting, and competitive. Part of the reason they stay competitive is because the developers take the advice of their most committed and experienced players. If Valve makes a change to Counter-Strike which is extremely imbalanced or not fun, it's very common that they get feedback from the Pro scene and make changes based on the advice of the Pro's. (Same in League of Legends.)

I will not get into the specifics of what I personally feel is "wrong" with the game, but I will say that there are some very short term (easy) solutions to some of the problems, and there are some other solutions which would require a little more time (read: programming) to implement. Recently, there were changes to SCB's (which were needed), but I feel that rather than the changes opening up more options for ships/builds/modules, the changes actually hurt the diversity you see in the ships that are viable for PvP. Certain ships got royally screwed (See: Courier), where other ships that were already strong in PvP, got A LOT stronger (See: FdL and FAS.), while ships that were struggling to stay viable saw minimal love or hate, but are now out shined by other, better options (See: Python, Vulture.)

I'm asking for FDev to get in touch with the committed Player-vs-player members of their community. Ask them what they feel is wrong with the game and what they feel could be changed to increase the enjoyment of PVP and give people plenty of options to keep it interesting and fun.


Thanks.

 

[DoctorTrauma]

NAILED it. Exactly what many of us who love the game for the PvP aspect are thinking.

-CMDR Doctor Trauma

 

[Roybe]

Although PvP is important to people...you do realize this game is a PvE one, right?

I enjoy my fair share of playing against people directly, but the game offers no true rewards for doing this. The only PvP in the game that is truly rewarded is the out collection of PvE trophies between groups of players.

The game, because of its basic design cannot, and will never be able, to reward PvP players for their activities beyond the personal satisfaction of beating someone.

Since the modes are in place...and non-negotiable...the only way to keep things equal between them is for PvE collection.

Since the PC and the Consoles will never be able to shoot each other in the face...the only way they can be equal is to outplay each other in PvE ways.

The devs will consider ship balance for PvP purposes...but this is as much as any PvP player should expect.

 

[Etherimp]

Although PvP is important to people...you do realize this game is a PvE one, right?

I enjoy my fair share of playing against people directly, but the game offers no true rewards for doing this. The only PvP in the game that is truly rewarded is the out collection of PvE trophies between groups of players.

The game, because of its basic design cannot, and will never be able, to reward PvP players for their activities beyond the personal satisfaction of beating someone.

Since the modes are in place...and non-negotiable...the only way to keep things equal between them is for PvE collection.

Since the PC and the Consoles will never be able to shoot each other in the face...the only way they can be equal is to outplay each other in PvE ways.

The devs will consider ship balance for PvP purposes...but this is as much as any PvP player should expect.

The only reward for PVP is the fun that is had in engaging in PVP, and the pleasure of designing an effective ship or tactic that no one has made work before.


And no, this game is not only PVE. Open play is Player-Vs-Player. If you wish for it to be PvE/Co-op, that's fine; the galaxy is big enough for the both of us.

 

[h347h]

First and foremost, let me say that I think FDev has made a beautiful and fun game with Elite: Dangerous. My main activities in the game include power-play and Player-vs-Player, but I fully respect some peoples desire to never get shot or destroyed or "grieved". I feel if people want to avoid PvP, they should be allowed to. I understand that a percentage of the community (possibly a large percentage) have no interest in PewPew at all, and they only want to explore/trade/play in private group/solo/whatever.

That being said, I also feel like the direction this game has taken with PvP is kind of sad, considering it is by far one of my favorite aspects of the game. I've recently been putting together PvP classes for new players within the Power-play community, and a lot of people who come out and learn and engage in wing vs wing or 1v1 combat say it's the most fun they've had in the game so far.

There is also a relatively small and tight knit community of hardcore PvPers in this game. Smiling Dog Crew, Adles Armada, CODE, etc.

What I would like to see (and what I am suggesting), is for some of the Frontier development team members to sit down and get involved in a discussion about game-balance from a PvP perspective. Games like Counter-Strike and League of Legends are very successful, long lasting, and competitive. Part of the reason they stay competitive is because the developers take the advice of their most committed and experienced players. If Valve makes a change to Counter-Strike which is extremely imbalanced or not fun, it's very common that they get feedback from the Pro scene and make changes based on the advice of the Pro's. (Same in League of Legends.)

I will not get into the specifics of what I personally feel is "wrong" with the game, but I will say that there are some very short term (easy) solutions to some of the problems, and there are some other solutions which would require a little more time (read: programming) to implement. Recently, there were changes to SCB's (which were needed), but I feel that rather than the changes opening up more options for ships/builds/modules, the changes actually hurt the diversity you see in the ships that are viable for PvP. Certain ships got royally screwed (See: Courier), where other ships that were already strong in PvP, got A LOT stronger (See: FdL and FAS.), while ships that were struggling to stay viable saw minimal love or hate, but are now out shined by other, better options (See: Python, Vulture.)

I'm asking for FDev to get in touch with the committed Player-vs-player members of their community. Ask them what they feel is wrong with the game and what they feel could be changed to increase the enjoyment of PVP and give people plenty of options to keep it interesting and fun.


Thanks.

God no this is awful. This ruins MMOs. You have a perfectly balanced PvP game for hardcore PvPers in CQC. The more you muck with PvP/PvE balance the poorer the game play will become like EVERY OTHER MMO to date that has tried to do it. It DOES NOT WORK.

 

[Etherimp]

God no this is awful. This ruins MMOs. You have a perfectly balanced PvP game for hardcore PvPers in CQC. The more you muck with PvP/PvE balance the poorer the game play will become like EVERY OTHER MMO to date that has tried to do it. It DOES NOT WORK.

1. Elite is not an MMO. 8-16 players per instance (if you're lucky.) is not considered "Massively multi-player". EVE is an MMO.. WoW is an MMO.. Know what those games have in common? You have the opportunity to see dozens or even hundreds of players congregating in populated areas and neither game allows you to go form your own "private" or "solo" group.

2. CQC is not a perfectly balanced PvP game, and it does not reflect the needs/desires of PvPers who play Open. Have you actually played CQC? Please tell me how it's balanced... Better yet, tell me how you would quantify "Balance" in a 4v4 player match where there is no match-making based off skill, there are no teams, there are no real rewards (aside from XP and a trivial amount of credits.)?

3. Private and Solo mode exist for the sole reason of catering to people who do not wish to be shot at.

4. Balancing ships for PvP would balance them for PVE as well. PvP'ers are testing the capabilities of ships versus opponents who actually think and have problem solving skills and attempt to escape or preserve their own life. How would balancing the Ships and Modules in this game around that NOT benefit the casual PVE player as well?!

5. Which MMO's PVE has been ruined because of PvP? Please give specific examples of how a game was "ruined" because of PVP. EVE and World of Warcraft do just fine.

6. I didn't even propose any actual changes. I only ask that FDev actually speak to the members of their community who are most experienced with PVP in order to get a sense of how they should approach balance.

 

[Troubletcat]

Comparing ED to Counter-Strike or MOBAs is insane.

It may be your favourite part of the game, but for the vast majority of players, including those who only play in open, PvP is a very uncommon occurrence and only a small part of the game. It should absolutely be considered in balance decisions, but dedicating huge amounts of effort to it simply doesn't make sense. ED will never have a professional competitive community in the way that CS and such do. It's not that kind of game.

 

[Hooplah]

This is a hybrid game where PVP and PVE live together. Trying to perfect one side is done so at the expense of the other. One could rewrite this entire post with, "I'm asking for FDev to get in touch with the committed Player-vs-environment members of their community" ending with the same compassion.

 

[Etherimp]

Comparing ED to Counter-Strike or MOBAs is insane.

It may be your favourite part of the game, but for the vast majority of players, including those who only play in open, PvP is a very uncommon occurrence and only a small part of the game. It should absolutely be considered in balance decisions, but dedicating huge amounts of effort to it simply doesn't make sense. ED will never have a professional competitive community in the way that CS and such do. It's not that kind of game.

I don't see how it's insane. Game developers should consult their committed and experienced players for balance ideas/options.

Who do you think has tested more ship builds in combat, both PvE and PVP? Your average trader, explorer, bounty hunter... or your PVPer who, if his build is flawed, it will cost him a rebuy?

PvE does not test your skills in combat or ship building to the extreme that PvP does, hence why FDev should consult the more experienced PVP players for questions like "Are SCB's balanced? Are hull reinf balanced? What modules need help?", etc.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

This is a hybrid game where PVP and PVE live together. Trying to perfect one side is done so at the expense of the other. One could rewrite this entire post with, "I'm asking for FDev to get in touch with the committed Player-vs-environment members of their community" ending with the same compassion.

The entirety of this game is

1. Trading
2. Exploring
3. Ship vs Ship combat (PvP or PvE, it's all combat.)
4. Power-play mechanics
5. Landing on planets.
6. Mining

How does using the wealth of play-testing experience that PvPers have accrued under the most stressful conditions threaten to harm ANY PVE ELEMENT?



To be more clear ... What exactly are you afraid will happen if FDev consults PVP groups and asks them how to better balance PvP?

 

[Fendalton]

I agree, there is nothing 'dangerous' about this game, and getting Elite rank is easy, move [product] from A to B for x amount of times = Elite. Jump - scan - scoop - jump x 161 million credits work = Elite.

This game is way too passive, it's catered for the casual crowd. PvP is high-end game play, it's a part of powerplay, but because so many people are just outright bad at it, they don't want it to be a part of their special game.

CQC doesn't take skill, there is no variety in the gameplay, everyone plays in Condors with Pulse Lasers, there is no tact required for builds.

We've build a community where even mentioning PvP results in you being accused of griefing, and it's an absolute joke. PvP is high-end content, it requires the most skill, and I agree with the OP.


If Elite: Dangerous isn't a PvP game, it should be called Elite: Endeavors. Dangerous implies that there is actually something dangerous in the game. I really hope that thargoids are released, and they are extremely difficult to kill and solo'ing them is borderline impossible, none of this 'NPC spinning in one location' rubbish.

 

[h347h]

1. Elite is not an MMO. 8-16 players per instance (if you're lucky.) is not considered "Massively multi-player". EVE is an MMO.. WoW is an MMO.. Know what those games have in common? You have the opportunity to see dozens or even hundreds of players congregating in populated areas and neither game allows you to go form your own "private" or "solo" group.

Okay you have your own personal definition of a MMO cool. Other people have their own personal definition of a MMO. Elite fits that bill.

2. CQC is not a perfectly balanced PvP game

Yes it is. Every one can start of with the best ship in the game. You can modify that ship or other ships to meet your play style. The stock Condor is basically the pistol/battle rifle from halo games. It is the core load out for competitive pvp.

, and it does not reflect the needs/desires of PvPers who play Open.

You are right, Open already fills those needs and desires.

Have you actually played CQC?

Yes I have. I guess you could say I'm okay at it.

Please tell me how it's balanced...

As posted above.

Better yet, tell me how you would quantify "Balance" in a 4v4 player match where there is no match-making based off skill, there are no teams, there are no real rewards (aside from XP and a trivial amount of credits.)? [/quote]
There is a match making system based off of skill. It was even discussed on the forums by the Devs. There are teams in team games... The real rewards are prestige in an even match you know that whole thing that PvP is usually based around.

3. Private and Solo mode exist for the sole reason of catering to people who do not wish to be shot at.

Not the sole reason. Some people just enjoy the single player experience it has nothing to do with pvp. They still get shot at by NPCs.

4. Balancing ships for PvP would balance them for PVE as well. PvP'ers are testing the capabilities of ships versus opponents who actually think and have problem solving skills and attempt to escape or preserve their own life. How would balancing the Ships and Modules in this game around that NOT benefit the casual PVE player as well?!

NPCs and players are apples and oranges as far as performance and abilities. Don't even act like an NPC is going to give you a 20 minute fight in an equivalent ship.

5. Which MMO's PVE has been ruined because of PvP? Please give specific examples of how a game was "ruined" because of PVP. EVE and World of Warcraft do just fine.

Actually WoW did NOT do just fine. It is even segregating PvP away from PvE more. It was a problem for WoW and now they are trying to make adjustments to do exactly what I am talking about. Moving away from the balancing of PvP and PvE. Proof here...

http://blizzardwatch.com/2015/08/06/legion-brings-new-honor-system-pvp/

The reason is because players like me who were Mythic Raiders and multi time Hero of the Horde/HighWarlord got sick of the nerf buff cycle and left the game.

6. I didn't even propose any actual changes. I only ask that FDev actually speak to the members of their community who are most experienced with PVP in order to get a sense of how they should approach balance.

That second sentence is a proposal for changes...

 

[Fendalton]

snip

Lol that commanders name, SGT Fuccboi. Amazing.

My ratings in CQC are like, 2:1 KD and 50% WR, and I still think I'm bad at it. All solo play, as my teams are rubbish and I have no-one to blame but myself if I loose in Deathmatch. (Except when the stupid game puts you in a match with 10 seconds to go, which counts as a loss)

 

[h347h]

Lol that commanders name, SGT Fuccboi. Amazing.

My ratings in CQC are like, 2:1 KD and 50% WR, and I still think I'm bad at it. All solo play, as my teams are rubbish and I have no-one to blame but myself if I loose in Deathmatch. (Except when the stupid game puts you in a match with 10 seconds to go, which counts as a loss)

Yeah I reported that ASAP after the match. Yeah I didn't even mean to add that one either because of the whole name/shame thing. Guess ill get a mod in here to clear it out because I can't seem to clear it.

 

[Kneejo]

The only reward for PVP is the fun that is had in engaging in PVP, ...

Do the traders that get killed feel the same about this? I'm glad I'm not in the bubble at the moment,.
so I don't have to deal with those who ONLY like the PVP aspect of the game, while it was designed to be PVE.

There's no argument here.. we are not cannon-fodder for those who do nothing but PVP.

And no, I'm not frustrated I got killed 2 or 3 times, out of hundreds of fights. I'm merely speaking up for those
I've tried to protect from those who have this single minded PVP mindset.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

In other words, EtherImp is saying he's a dedicated and experienced pilot, who made a name for himself, and now feels he deserves the right to say he's best suited to state for all of us to the developers what should be changed..

 

[Fendalton]

Do the traders that get killed feel the same about this? I'm glad I'm not in the bubble at the moment,.
so I don't have to deal with those who ONLY like the PVP aspect of the game, while it was designed to be PVE.

There's no argument here.. we are not cannon-fodder for those who do nothing but PVP.

And no, I'm not frustrated I got killed 2 or 3 times, out of hundreds of fights. I'm merely speaking up for those
I've tried to protect from those who have this single minded PVP mindset.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

In other words, EtherImp is saying he's a dedicated and experienced pilot, who made a name for himself, and now feels he deserves the right to say he's best suited to state for all of us to the developers what should be changed..

PvP and PvTraders is completely different.

PvP is 2 FDL's going at it. PvP combat is different to Piracy.

Please note, that when we talk about PvP content, we are not talking about piracy, we are talking about the likes of who has the best stealth build, who can out-manoeuvre who in a fight, if running 4 Multi Cannons and max shields can out-DPS a Pulse Laser build, things like that, running reflective vs reinforced composites, That's proper PvP.

 

[AJW]

If the developers want to 'consult' anyone (rather than engaging in market research, which is the normal way of finding out how to attract more customers), it would seem logical to involve a representative sample from the existing player base as a whole, rather than individuals who concentrate on one specific aspect of the game.

 

[Chance-]

God no this is awful. This ruins MMOs. You have a perfectly balanced PvP game for hardcore PvPers in CQC. The more you muck with PvP/PvE balance the poorer the game play will become like EVERY OTHER MMO to date that has tried to do it. It DOES NOT WORK.

How do you even come close to saying that CQC is a "perfectly balanced PvP game for hardcore PvPers". It was literally the biggest joke in the PvP scene. Go look at the ranks for the hardcore PvP players and see how much CQC they've played. NONE. It is not what we want for PvP. Big ship combat is fun and the risk of losing that ship is one of the most adrenaline pumping feelings their is. If you can't play with the big dogs in open and accept you might just lose your ship, stick to private or solo. I don't even understand how you can possibly thing that listening to the part of the community that pushes combat ships past shooting mindless AI that have half the hull mass than them to be something that can ruin the game. We know how the ships work and what can be done to make them better but no one listens to the PvP community because if something they don't like happens, we are considered griefers. I am off in the core because I got so tired of listening to people whine and complain on the forums about how if they were killed they were being griefed. CQC is not a part of the main game. It's a random off shoot that they tried to pass off as a pvp experience. Sorry for the rant but please, think about it from our perspective for a second before you call it awful. All he is asking is that they actually listen to us for once instead of ignoring us like they have for every other thing we've ever asked them to fix. (See combat logging for more fun arguments.)

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Do the traders that get killed feel the same about this? I'm glad I'm not in the bubble at the moment,.
so I don't have to deal with those who ONLY like the PVP aspect of the game, while it was designed to be PVE.

There's no argument here.. we are not cannon-fodder for those who do nothing but PVP.

And no, I'm not frustrated I got killed 2 or 3 times, out of hundreds of fights. I'm merely speaking up for those
I've tried to protect from those who have this single minded PVP mindset.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

In other words, EtherImp is saying he's a dedicated and experienced pilot, who made a name for himself, and now feels he deserves the right to say he's best suited to state for all of us to the developers what should be changed..

If you don't like the pvp aspect, play the pve mode.

 

[Hooplah]

......How does using the wealth of play-testing experience that PvPers have accrued under the most stressful conditions threaten to harm ANY PVE ELEMENT?......To be more clear ... What exactly are you afraid will happen if FDev consults PVP groups and asks them how to better balance PvP?

Remember the Python and how great it was for combat, defense, trading and exploration with longer range. Enter the PvP complaints per how it was too hard to defeat in combat. So it was reduced to the limited version it is now. So much for the PvE fans who lost a ship with great loadout possibilities. This scenario has been repeated many times over for the primary balance concerns of PvP.

No, the issue seems more like let's discuss PvP and don't bother inviting PvE to the table.

 

[Etherimp]

Okay you have your own personal definition of a MMO cool. Other people have their own personal definition of a MMO. Elite fits that bill.

The word "MASSIVE" has a clear meaning. Anyone who thinks 16 players is a "MASSIVE" amount of players is mistaken.

Yes it is. Every one can start of with the best ship in the game. You can modify that ship or other ships to meet your play style. The stock Condor is basically the pistol/battle rifle from halo games. It is the core load out for competitive pvp.

That must be why CQC is so incredibly successful and popular, right? Because it's such an awesome, rewarding, competitive environment! Nope.

You are right, Open already fills those needs and desires.

No, it doens't. That's what this is about.

There is a match making system based off of skill. It was even discussed on the forums by the Devs. There are teams in team games... The real rewards are prestige in an even match you know that whole thing that PvP is usually based around.

No, there isn't, because in my experience hardly anyone plays CQC.. I have never queued up with a team and got matched against another team. Furthermore, there's no "ranking" system, so it's overall pointless. You're playing for stats, that's it.. Noob stomping level 1's and gaining stats off of it is not braggable or competitive or fun.

Not the sole reason. Some people just enjoy the single player experience it has nothing to do with pvp. They still get shot at by NPCs.

And that's fine.

NPCs and players are apples and oranges as far as performance and abilities. Don't even act like an NPC is going to give you a 20 minute fight in an equivalent ship.

Exactly my point. And how would balancing the game around PvP change that?

Actually WoW did NOT do just fine. It is even segregating PvP away from PvE more. It was a problem for WoW and now they are trying to make adjustments to do exactly what I am talking about. Moving away from the balancing of PvP and PvE. Proof here...

http://blizzardwatch.com/2015/08/06/legion-brings-new-honor-system-pvp/

The reason is because players like me who were Mythic Raiders and multi time Hero of the Horde/HighWarlord got sick of the nerf buff cycle and left the game.

Lost track of the WoW scene around Season 4 after I achieved Merciless Gladiator status. Balance among the classes was always an issue but balance between PVE and PVP wasn't a huge issue that I recall. PvP gear was better for PvP, and PVE gear was better for damage.

That second sentence is a proposal for changes...

Yes.. I want the Devs to actually balance the game. Please tell me what you're afraid will happen (Specifically) if they listed to PVP players and make balance changes to ships, modules, or add new modules in the game to open up more options/variety in builds?

 

[Chance-]

Remember the Python and how great it was for combat, defense, trading and exploration with longer range. Enter the PvP complaints per how it was too hard to defeat in combat. So it was reduced to the limited version it is now. So much for the PvE fans who lost a ship with great loadout possibilities. This scenario has been repeated many times over for the primary balance concerns of PvP.

No, the issue seems more like let's discuss PvP and don't bother inviting PvE to the table.

Now hold on just a second. Did you just blame the PvP community for the Python nerf? The same PvP community that's been asking for a python buff for a long time?