Please don't neglect mechanics for everyone by focusing on pure multiplayer content!

We've got the PvP crowd stating that this game is designed for PvP, it's what the game is ALL about.
We've got the PvE crowd screaming that no more multiplayer content should be developed or added, it's a total waste, no one plays with others, least of all ME(the poster)!
<snip>

This discussion has nothing to do with "PvE" vs "PvP". It's about basic gameplay mechanics being available to everyone, not just people engaging in multiplayer (which doesn't automatically equal "PvP" - see "Distant Worlds", the "Moebius" private group etc.)

I also thought I made it quite clear that I think multiplayer-features are fine and I support their addition:

I understand and support that the game has a strong multiplayer mode.

I don't mind FD adding new multiplayer aspects to the game at all, I think ED needs them, but what I do mind is adding multiplay-only aspects and mechanics to the game.

It's the last part of that last quote that I tried to emphasize: if some potentially interesting new feature is added to the game, it shouldn't be multiplayer-only. It should be available to players who play alone - intentionally or unintentionally - too! Especially if a concept like "NPCs" is so well suited for a mechanic like crew or wingmen.

I try to play with other commanders when I get the opportunity - one of the reasons I am really looking forward to the "Distant Worlds" expedition - but more often than not the sheer size of the in-game world just lowers the chance to actually just meet other players by chance in the game, even in "open" and in inhabited space so much, that frankly, even if I wanted to just player multiplayer I'd need to put in an inappropriate amount of time just organizing wings and aligning playtime schedules or stick to the few core worlds where everyone starts. I'd rather prefer being able to enjoy basic gameplay mechanics like the wings and crews without the hassle to find and set up groups to do so.
 
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I think the game is great as-is and, while my first year of the game was spent ENTIRELY in Solo play, with the release of Horizons I've had a bunch of friends pick up and game and finally have gotten use out of the wings function.

That said, I agree that the game would ABSOLUTELY benefit from having NPC wingmen and NPC crewmen. I shouldn't need to rely on my friends to be on at the same time as me to be able to fly in a wing against wings of NPCs, nor should there be any reason I can't have a crew manning the stations in my Federation Corvette... Even if it's just minor tasks. As far as I'm concerned, with both the lack of NPC wingmen with Wings and supposed lack of NPC crewmen when multicrew hits, FD are really missing out on two things that would add a HUGE layer of depth to the game for a lot of people. Take a look back at basically every "space sim" that's considered a classic and included wingmen and you'll see what I mean.
 
Arubeto said:
I do like the game a lot and enjoy playing it, but my main concern about Elite: Dangerous is that the increased focus on multiplayer content seems to reduce the resources spend on developing content that would benefit everyone, from "solo" over "private group" to "open" mode players.


I’m going to agree with you. The only thing in Season 1 that was of any benefit to my play style was 1.1 Community. Bar a few improvements here and there that came with later features, the rest is stuff that I’ll never use.


I love the game, and normally view it though rose tinted glasses. But, I have some reservations about season 2 already, which as you point out, is looking like having a heavy focus on multiplayer. I find that a little disappointing when you think that for £30, a large percentage of features will be irrelevant to me and a lot of others, yet I still had to fund their development.


I think that FD have a romantic notion of players playing online in a meaningful cooperative way. The reality is a lot of players prefer to do their own thing and have no interest in the multiplayer aspect. So while I’m sure mutlicrew will be implemented in a meaningful way and will be amazing, hardly anyone will care or use it. And that seems like a huge waste of FD developer time and effort.


Personally, I’d rather see features and improvements that everyone can enjoy rather than implementing something just so it ticks a box.

</personal opinions>
 
I'd rather FD put multicrew on the back burner for a while and focused on more planetary landings (not that I have landed on anything yet). Fix and add more missions, rather than remove and release poorly written bugged missions.
Keep adding ships too.
Add more things for "high level" players to do. By that I mean, if you have the A spec Conda you want, fighting in a hazres is still a doddle. We need more to do. And not stuff that requires a wing, but harder better paying bountys that's not a wing of 8 Anaconda's. Cos no solo player can win that.
Improve NPC AI too. Better scripts so less 'cheating' is required.
When I heard NPC's won't be flying around planets, that pretty much ended my interest in Horizons.
I don't particularly care about PvP, I've only ever got in to 1 PvP fight in a few months, and I highly doubt I will be get in to a pvp fight over a planet.
I'm not saying cater for the solo player, or multiplayer. I'm also not saying I'll rage quit when multicrew comes out. I'll just probably never use it without NPC crew, because I have about 10 friends on ED. Usually only 1 or 2 are online when I am. And usually busy doing their own thing 500+ly away.

Just add stuff everyone will benefit from. It's the best possible use of FDs time and resources.
That's all!
 
Even if you're a total solo'er I think its hard to deny that adding Wings was a valid game decision, even if its not perfect. I occasionally Wing up with 1 friend but that's about it. I'm glad it exists and even if I didn't at all I would be glad others had it. Multi crew I agree NPC's would help as it seems a much more niche play style than Wings. In the end its just another case of features that one aspect of the community couldn't care less about but others must have. ED's only fault is the variety of way's it can be played and this will no doubt continue to occur.

Wings is brilliant and essential to any flight sim or space game. I would argue against anyone who said wings should not be in the game. This issue is the lack of npc wing options. Even wing commander 1 back on the Amiga and 386 pc had npc wing mates.
 
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Wings is brilliant and essential to any flight sim or space game. I would argue against anyone who said wings should not be in the game. This issue is the lack of npc wing options. Even wing commander 1 back on the Amiga and 386 pc had npc wing mates.

This! I would love to play in wings more often (and supposedly with multicrews, too!), because its an awesome mechanic! It's just the requirement of finding a player group every time you want to wing up that irks me and why I'd love to see NPC wingmen and crewmen which would always be available (for a price, of course! ;))
 
One of the most annoying things about the lack of NPC wingmen is that right from Alpha 1.0 we had training missions with NPC wingmen. Admittedly we didn't have any control over them but nonetheless they existed in a limited form. just try the training missions Wolfpack Tactics and Supply Strike.
 
This has all been talked about before, it does seem that FD are going to concentrate purely on multiplayer no matter what. NPC content would benefit both groups (solo and open) and after over a year playing, I finally decided to take a break from Elite, simply due to the fact that every update seems to be just for the open crowd.

FD simply just not want to give any focus for everyone - just MP.
 
This! I would love to play in wings more often (and supposedly with multicrews, too!), because its an awesome mechanic! It's just the requirement of finding a player group every time you want to wing up that irks me and why I'd love to see NPC wingmen and crewmen which would always be available (for a price, of course! ;))

And to be completely fair, Wings applied to neutral/hostile NPCs as well. Solo players basically got a difficulty increase out of the bargain, which is not a terrible thing. I'm sure we all have stories about 'that one wing' of X number of Y ships that we took out solo.

I'd prefer NPC crew and/or wingmen to come in both temporary and persistent varieties should we ever get to fly with them. Temporary allies would cost money up front but would have a set 'range' of LYs they operate in and would leave after a set amount of time, maybe even with the possibility of betrayal. Persistent NPCs would stick with you, and gradually improve their skills and ship as they fly with you. Recruiting them would be down to minor/major/power play faction reputation, or come as a quest/CG reward. Maybe you rescued them from a life pod or something, or freed them from/sold them into slavery.

But that's just, like, my opinion man.
 
DD Online was incorrect on my part, I meant NWN Online. Do you know what a round based game is? In all of the games I mentioned, your NPC's can and do function independently of you, they don't just stand their waiting for you to issue a command, although saying that, you can override their default behaviour by queing actions for them in some cases (or change their default behaviour, to a limited extent).

I'm not sure what the roles would be but the fact is that the AI script is already in the game, ie NPC's. They seem to be able to do everything we as pilots can do in our ships already.

I do understand what round based games are, and that's exactly my point, NPC teammates in those work because you can jump into them and control them if you want because you have the TIME to do that thanks to the round based nature of the game. Real time games, you don't have that time, while you are trying to control the NPC, your character is left hanging. There have been attempts at having NPC teammates in real time games, they put your character on autopilot when you control the NPCs, and that leads to bad things, it's not effective, it leads to player death, players don't tend to like that for some odd reason.

It's been stated that FD plans on having a ship with multiple players in it being as effective as multiple ships, and most people assume that means some sort of buff, space magic it's been called, so that the ship is now tougher, more agile and hits harder due to the number of real players in the ship.

Thing is, there's no reason to do that, you can achieve the same results without buffing the ship at all, you simply give the players better control over the things they use. Pilot, when not having to also watch the pips, sensors and everything at once, can concentrate more on flying and positioning, which makes the ship more effective without buffing it at all. Weapons Officer, by giving them dedicated weapon controls, they can target better because that's all they do, and turrets wouldn't be under the control of the ship's computer, so chaff wouldn't bother aiming, still mess with sensors, but not aiming. Engineering, better control of the energy flow, able to shut off systems not needed in combat, swap between different systems that are needed in combat but situationally, as well as actively repairing systems that take damage while in combat. Sensors, able to keep track of multiple targets at once(WO only sees what they lock on however) so they can track what's around the ship, also able to track/target Silent Running ships at longer ranges, defeat chaff and ECM, and generally make everything around the ship easier to see.

When these things are all done by individuals instead of a single person, the ship becomes more effective without a single buff being needed. Communication will be the keystone that ties them all together to get that effectiveness, as if you aren't communicating, no one knows what's going on and can't properly do what needs to be done. Pilot needs more speed, says nothing, Engineer doesn't know to put more power to the engines, and so on. These are things that people who've done multicrew in other games are aware of, it's amazing how much more effective a single vehicle becomes when multiple people operate it together as opposed to a single person doing it alone, just having those players communicating allows them to make more use of the vehicle's abilities, simple as that. It's not a new thing for online games, it's been done before and it's always been more effective for a crew to run the multicrew vehicles than a single player, even though a single player can run everything. One player splitting their attention between multiple things at once is less effective than multiple players each concentrating on a single thing while working together.

The AI in Elite Dangerous is not good, they don't do what we do in our ships right now, they don't even get close to it, they do 1 thing at a time and they do that badly in most cases. They suffer no heat issues, they suffer no ammo issues, they don't redirect power or repair their vessels, hell they can't pilot for jack either. You want THAT AI being in charge of systems on your ship that it isn't scripted to deal with at all? 'I need more power to the shields Jerry' "I'm going to boil you up, I'm going to boil you up *spinning in his chair*"...yeah, that'll go over great won't it?

Fact is, most of the people who only want NPCs play solo, they'll get nothing out of an NPC crew, since they won't be effective at what the player can already do solo, they aren't as effective as a player currently, so what exactly will they offer? Conversation? Taking up seats? Giving extra controls to players is one thing, humans can do things no scripting can, but the NPCs won't actually make any use of them, they are after all part of the game code anyway, they don't need extra screens and controls. And we've already seen how good the NPC scripting is for..well..everything and anything, it's not.
 
I'm reminded a lot of when Blizzard focused a ton of care and attention into making more endgame content for raiders, which was only actually a tiny proportion of the playerbase. I don't think it was the sole downfall of wow but it was certainly a contributor.
 
I do understand what round based games are, and that's exactly my point, NPC teammates in those work because you can jump into them and control them if you want because you have the TIME to do that thanks to the round based nature of the game. Real time games, you don't have that time, while you are trying to control the NPC, your character is left hanging. There have been attempts at having NPC teammates in real time games, they put your character on autopilot when you control the NPCs, and that leads to bad things, it's not effective, it leads to player death, players don't tend to like that for some odd reason.
Uhh, you sure you get it? The games he mentioned (DDO -> NWN, Guild Wars, SWTOR and something else that I forget) were all MMOs. They weren't turn-based, and all had autonomous NPC companions. The most you had to do was configure them / issue their general rules (ie tank / DPS / heal) and they'd get on with it. No micromanagement beyond that.

Fact is, most of the people who only want NPCs play solo, they'll get nothing out of an NPC crew, since they won't be effective at what the player can already do solo, they aren't as effective as a player currently, so what exactly will they offer? Conversation? Taking up seats? Giving extra controls to players is one thing, humans can do things no scripting can, but the NPCs won't actually make any use of them, they are after all part of the game code anyway, they don't need extra screens and controls. And we've already seen how good the NPC scripting is for..well..everything and anything, it's not.
I wouldn't say most, but probably quite a few are solo players. There are also large numbers who play alone in open who would like NPC crews even if it's simply because they'll always be available. One good suggestion for them was a co-pilot who acts as nothing more than a docking computer; boom, a useful, efficient, pre-programmed AI crew member with the added bonus that you don't need to waste a module slot on an actual docking computer. All FD need do is add the cardboard cutout to the co-pilot chair.
 
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The AI in Elite Dangerous is not good

Indeed. Which is why FD needs to work on that and give us decent NPC multicrew, decent NPC enemies, decent NPC wingmen IMHO. These NPCs are also a key to make interesting missions / piracy / trading etc. A good set of missions is still not a thing in E : D a full year post-release.

I don't see how this would be useful to solo players only : there are a lot of CMDRs interested in multiplayer PVE content (like the attack of the capital ships). In fact, the only category who would probably not use this would be the PVP community, and not all of it because some enjoy collaborative gameplay as well.

And honestly, the results of this poll are pretty impressive. I know this isn't necessarily the most accurate study ever produced, but what do the players multicrew advocates have to prove they are not a VERY small minority ?
 
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I'm reminded a lot of when Blizzard focused a ton of care and attention into making more endgame content for raiders, which was only actually a tiny proportion of the playerbase. I don't think it was the sole downfall of wow but it was certainly a contributor.

No, WoW's downfall is the fact that it's WoW, it's always been a rather shallow game with little real substance, and over the past few years they've not made any real effort to even hide that fact. Kung Fu Pandas was the killer for WoW, it was already losing customers at that point, millions of them, and that was pretty much the finishing blow, it's been downhill from that point.

Other games that are older and still being played by enough people to keep them up and operating, like Asheron's Call, have repeatedly focused on the end game content for the minority playerbase, didn't hurt them at all to do that either.

Funny thing, people keep saying that FD is only catering to the multiplayer crowd, but there's been exactly 2 things that were aimed at that crowd added to the game to date, Wings and CQC, that's it. Multicrew is definitely aimed at the multiplayer crowd, which would indeed be a bad idea for a single player game, no two ways about it.

Another funny thing, Elite Dangerous isn't actually a single player game, did you know that? The adverts for the game all mention this multiplayer stuff, it's touted as THE online multiplayer experience even, did you know that? Seriously, did you people know this is really a multiplayer game and not a single player game? Did none of you ever realize that? Didn't read the adverts, watch the videos where David says that repeatedly, multiplayer game, online multiplayer game, an MMO, repeatedly, he's said that about this game, you knew this right?

Funny thing about online multiplayer games, you've got to actually have, you know, MULTIPLAYER stuff in them, like, oh, Wings and multicrew and CQC. It's sort of required, legally, that when you say your game is an online multiplayer game that you provide online multiplayer content, funny how that works out isn't it?
 
This is an MMO GAME. stop soloing and you have it fixed. Grrreeets!

If it were that easy. Have you tried to form a wing with random players in "open" in some random inhabited system? I have, and let me tell you, it's not as easy and straightforward as you thing.

First, given the unfavorable ratio of "huge gameworld"/"not so huge playerbase" you find yourself alone in a system more often than not.

Then, if you managed to actually find another commander, in most cases he already has some own thing to do and isn't too interested to spontaneously form a wing with a stranger (that assumes of course that he answers you in the first place, which is a rare case already)

With multicrew, there will also be the question if you really want some random player take over your turrets. He might think it's fun shooting within a station to see a firework.

And you have to hope the guys you try to hire as crewmen won't rather be captain in their own ships instead of being your underling and performing some minigame task.

Of course you can always use the forums or other ED sites to find potential wingmates (or crewmembers, in the future), but if thats the prerequisite for taking advantage of such a basic gameplay feature like wings or crews it's way too cumbersome IMHO.
 
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They should have gone to spec savers.

They should have made the game off line.

Then we would have had a better and more stable game with more features and content and no requirement to find friends to play with.
 
No, WoW's downfall is the fact that it's WoW, it's always been a rather shallow game with little real substance, and over the past few years they've not made any real effort to even hide that fact. Kung Fu Pandas was the killer for WoW, it was already losing customers at that point, millions of them, and that was pretty much the finishing blow, it's been downhill from that point.

Other games that are older and still being played by enough people to keep them up and operating, like Asheron's Call, have repeatedly focused on the end game content for the minority playerbase, didn't hurt them at all to do that either.

Funny thing, people keep saying that FD is only catering to the multiplayer crowd, but there's been exactly 2 things that were aimed at that crowd added to the game to date, Wings and CQC, that's it. Multicrew is definitely aimed at the multiplayer crowd, which would indeed be a bad idea for a single player game, no two ways about it.

Another funny thing, Elite Dangerous isn't actually a single player game, did you know that? The adverts for the game all mention this multiplayer stuff, it's touted as THE online multiplayer experience even, did you know that? Seriously, did you people know this is really a multiplayer game and not a single player game? Did none of you ever realize that? Didn't read the adverts, watch the videos where David says that repeatedly, multiplayer game, online multiplayer game, an MMO, repeatedly, he's said that about this game, you knew this right?

Funny thing about online multiplayer games, you've got to actually have, you know, MULTIPLAYER stuff in them, like, oh, Wings and multicrew and CQC. It's sort of required, legally, that when you say your game is an online multiplayer game that you provide online multiplayer content, funny how that works out isn't it?

You are right of course. I wonder what the law says on false advertising? That Horizons trailer showed ship to ship combat and SRV vs SRV combat on planet surfaces.......anyone who watched that, then bought the game on the strength of that, and decides to play in solo...is in for a rude surprise ....space crickets..........said it before and I say it again, Solo/Open is a catch 22 and will be the death of ED........
 
No, WoW's downfall is the fact that it's WoW, it's always been a rather shallow game with little real substance, and over the past few years they've not made any real effort to even hide that fact. Kung Fu Pandas was the killer for WoW, it was already losing customers at that point, millions of them, and that was pretty much the finishing blow, it's been downhill from that point.

Other games that are older and still being played by enough people to keep them up and operating, like Asheron's Call, have repeatedly focused on the end game content for the minority playerbase, didn't hurt them at all to do that either.

Funny thing, people keep saying that FD is only catering to the multiplayer crowd, but there's been exactly 2 things that were aimed at that crowd added to the game to date, Wings and CQC, that's it. Multicrew is definitely aimed at the multiplayer crowd, which would indeed be a bad idea for a single player game, no two ways about it.

Another funny thing, Elite Dangerous isn't actually a single player game, did you know that? The adverts for the game all mention this multiplayer stuff, it's touted as THE online multiplayer experience even, did you know that? Seriously, did you people know this is really a multiplayer game and not a single player game? Did none of you ever realize that? Didn't read the adverts, watch the videos where David says that repeatedly, multiplayer game, online multiplayer game, an MMO, repeatedly, he's said that about this game, you knew this right?

Funny thing about online multiplayer games, you've got to actually have, you know, MULTIPLAYER stuff in them, like, oh, Wings and multicrew and CQC. It's sort of required, legally, that when you say your game is an online multiplayer game that you provide online multiplayer content, funny how that works out isn't it?

Yeah if a greedy company that employs lawyers and psychologists can make such errors of judgement then I'm quite sure smaller companies that don't can as well.

Aside from focusing on stuff that only a small minority of players care about, the other thing Blizzard got wrong was alienating the core fans in one way or another by trying to appeal to new ones.

A point about the argument about where focus should be spent etc: All players, including multiplayer players use the PVE content, so that right there should indicate where the focus should lie. Especially when trying to attract new players. I can't count the amount of times I've seen people say "I'm the only person I know that plays this game" Especially so on the Xbox.
 
Uhh, you sure you get it? The games he mentioned (DDO -> NWN, Guild Wars, SWTOR and something else that I forget) were all MMOs. They weren't turn-based, and all had autonomous NPC companions. The most you had to do was configure them / issue their general rules (ie tank / DPS / heal) and they'd get on with it. No micromanagement beyond that.


I wouldn't say most, but probably quite a few are solo players. There are also large numbers who play alone in open who would like NPC crews even if it's simply because they'll always be available. One good suggestion for them was a co-pilot who acts as nothing more than a docking computer; boom, a useful, efficient, pre-programmed AI crew member with the added bonus that you don't need to waste a module slot on an actual docking computer. All FD need do is add the cardboard cutout to the co-pilot chair.

First thing, if you can que up actions, it's a round based game, and every single one of those games, which I've played by the way, are round based games. And you CAN jump into your NPCs in those on the fly, sometimes to simply alter their presets, sometimes to actually take over fully, that's all due to the fact that they are round based games. Shall we get into the fact that those NPCs are all also pretty...well...the NPCs in this game are better, and the NPCs in this game are well noted for being bad. No heat, no ammo, they don't change power levels, they don't repair, and they are pretty good at having no clue where anything is around them and ramming them. Yeah, lets get those NPC in charge of YOUR ship, keep those damn things out of mine, thank you very much.

And I'd be willing to wager that an NPC crew member on your ship wouldn't be allowed to dock your ship for you, you'd still need a DC for that, and if that's ALL you want NPC crew for, you literally are better off using a DC, you pay a cheap price 1 time for it, instead of paying it every day/week/month. Seriously, that's why you want NPC crew? That's a joke, right?

As for the 'polls' on this subject, well, the MASSIVE one that's been referred to, hmm, not even 1% of the forum users have voted, and the forum users don't even make up 5% of the game's playerbase, so I'm gonna have to say that that poll is about as meaningful to whether or not the playerbase wants multicrew or not as the color of my dog's treats is to whether or not the playerbase wants multicrew or not.
 
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