Turret Nerfs are Overdoing it Guys.

[Psycho Romeo]

If we go by that you are basicly Saying.

Turrets are not Useless. Just Horribly Inefficient because anything else is more useful than Turrets.

You know what else is horribly inefficient because almost everything else is more useful?
Small multicannons. Small multicannons are terrible! They're so weak! Almost anything would be better!

That doesn't mean that they don't have their usefulness, even if it's pretty exclusively sidewinders and eagles.

 

[CTCParadox]

While you are right, I would have to argue posting it this way does not help this individual.

He appears to be flying in a more "traditional" way, interpreting the ship like a plane, expecting to fly forward and turn to get bearings - hence why using turrets to make hits outside his view.

The issue seems to stem from this being a space game and space physics are not what most are accustomed to.

Hence why you are right - you halt your forward speed, put it in reverse to the sweet spot and turn to force the target in view with a larger ship. Leave it with Gimballed or Fixed for more output and its a good win. The attacking ship will be forced to either travel further to catch up or circle, leaving them in the targeting arc longer - and by extension with the numbers for larger ships, dead.


Unfortunately we don't have those massive turret-designed ships yet, these are smaller craft that need to follow different rules. Larger ships can win, but only if you play it by their rules in the game.
This game isn't as accommodating for other playstyles yet.

Probably wasn't helpful but as you say flying the ships like planes is missing out on a lot of their movement capabilities.
Learning back movement and lateral thrusters makes a big difference.

CMDR CTCParadox

 

[DragoonKnight]

Problem is if the other Guy just takes a Boost into your Direction and Disables Flight assist while using Reverse himself he will be sitting behind you. And you will be forced to Maneuver Blindly.
Rinse and Repeat.
Getting him into Fixed Arc this Way is almost Impossible Anyways so you can only use Gimballed for this.
But that will be easily Thwarted by him throwing a Chaff and Immediatly Boosting into your Dead Zone again. And then Again pulling an nice Amount of Damage into you before you managed to maneuver him into your Front Arc Again.


I told you Repeatedly.
NPCs might Fall for such Simple Tricks.
I know that because I often enough Killed NPCs doing this with my Transporters when Farming Money.
But Players are not that Stupid that are unable to get behind an Corvette Flying Reverse with an Speed of maybe 160 if we are generous...

And constantly using the backwards strategy against high ranked NPC ships will cause you to eat multiple plasma balls and railgun slugs. So even against "dumb NPC" pilots it is not the best strategy.

 

[DragoonKnight]

Just 2 things.

1.
An Corvette is the Smallest Category of Warships.
Its not an Big Warship.
Big Warships start at the Heavy Cruiser Category.

2.
Actually nope.
An Corvette is not an Capital Ship.
Its not supposed to Fight Bigger Ships.
An Corvette belongs to the Escort Ships and its Duty is to keep Aircraft and Smaller Vessels away from the Capital Ships.

As such Corvettes were usually only Equipped with a Single Heavy Gun Turret on the Front of the Ship.
While the remaining Armament was usually for Fighting Smaller Vessels like Gun Boats and Torpedo Boats as well as Aircraft.


And just so you know.
Corvettes were very Effective at this.
Because they were even smaller and faster than Frigates and Destroyers. They were harder to Hit for Bombers and Torpedo Boats as well as Submarines.
And the Small Calibre Autocannon were much more Dangerous to Aircraft and Boats than the slow Artillery of Destroyers.


But well thats just Speaking Traditionally.
Ingame I think that just like an Fighter can use Anti Fighter Weaponry or use Heavy Weaponry.
An Corvette should also have Viable Weapons for both. Anti Aircraft Escort Duty and Heavy Attack Duty.

I would not Limit it only to Heavy Attack Duty tough.
Especially because in this Game it makes no Sense.

Apparently we wont really get Bigger Ships than Corvettes anyways.
(And honestly unless they really give out some Better Turrets it would be entirely meaningless to give out Bigger Ships anyways....)

So making the Corvette into an Ship only usable against other Corvettes aint going anywhere.



The Joke is.
The Numbers are pretty much Traditional.

Corvettes in Reality had similar Weapon Sizes as Ingame.
An Corvette usually had
1 Big Front Weapon (usually an 100mm or 120mm Turret) Which is Presented by Class 4 Hardpoint. Albeit we dont have Turrets......
1-3 Duty Weapons (usually Anti Submarine Weapons like Hedgehogs or Depth Charges as the main Threat in that time was Submarines. But also Torpedoes in some cases) Which is Presented by the Large Hardpoints
2-6 Secondary Weapons (usually 40mm, 37mm and 20mm Autocannons which were used against Aircraft and Gunboats) Currently Represented by Medium and Small Hardpoints.

In that Regard its actually following things pretty nicely.
The thing is that the Weapons for smaller Crafts are much overdone in this Game.
Gunboats etc which would be the Counterpiece to the Ingame Medium Vessels. Did usually not have so much Weaponry.
Neither had Fighter Bombers which is likely the best Counterpiece for Small Vessels

I know that the Corvette is not really a "big ship", but I was speaking in relative terms of what we are allowed to fly in Elite.
I was simply trying to say that a Corvette should have guns that are both powerful enough to present a credible threat to other ships of its class (Corvette, Conda, Cutter) and those guns should be flexible enough with their firing arcs that it does not have to dog fight a viper the same way that a Vulture would.

 

[Sunleader]

I know that the Corvette is not really a "big ship", but I was speaking in relative terms of what we are allowed to fly in Elite.
I was simply trying to say that a Corvette should have guns that are both powerful enough to present a credible threat to other ships of its class (Corvette, Conda, Cutter) and those guns should be flexible enough with their firing arcs that it does not have to dog fight a viper the same way that a Vulture would.

For the Post Above.
Thats why I said it MIGHT work on NPCs
Generally it depends on the NPCs Rank.
An NPC on Deadly or Dangerous will most of the Time be Fairly Capable of getting back on you if your Trying such Stuff.


And well.
Generally an Corvette should not really be Facing Enemy Corvettes that much.
Thats the Job of Heavy Fighters like the Python or FGS which should be able to do Frontal Attack Runs against its Turrets and Deal Damage if not Intercepted by Fighters.

The main part of an Corvette should actually be Turrets used to Deal with Fighters in an Swift Manner given they are not Careful and enter your Range without Fire Support.
Of course just like an Fighter still can Deal Damage to an Corvette by doing Aimed Strikes at Range or by using Chaffs to Create an Opening.
An Corvette should also be able to Strike at Enemy Corvettes or Heavy Fighters by using its Heavy Frontal Weapon.
But thats Secondary to be Honest.

The real issue is and stays that the Corvettes need proper Turrets that are actually an Threat to Fighters and thus Force em away from your Rear except for Short Attack Windows Created by the use of Chaffs.

 

[Space Time]

Target Only or Fire at Will?
I've been enjoying reading this thread a lot because I'm not the best pilot and so I enjoy Turrets. I do mostly Cargo Missions and enjoy engaging the occasional Interdiction. I was flying a Turreted Cobra (lasers up side, cannons below). Now I'm flying a Python I've had in my mothball fleet for a long time (getting it outfitted + Ins ext.)...
"Good Pilots here, so here's the question"...
Target Only or Fire at Will, which is your preference and why?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
FYI
I don't have the $cr yet to outfit an all Turreted Python... so here's my current turret python setup;
Here's the stats on my Python named "PT-76" (Python Torpedo Boat)
2 = Turret E-2 Beam Lasers (top forward mounted)
3 = Pylon Torpedo Racks I-2 (2 topside, 1 below)
3 = Point Defense (2 topside, 1 below)
1 = Chaff (belly mounted)
-----------------------------
Target Only or Fire at Will. Which do you prefer and why?
~Space Time~

Great Answers All... "Objective, The Getaway Cargo Carrier"
I do need some "Flight Assist Off" practice
We don't have the technology for rear view mirrors yet or rear facing gunner tech, other than that of the Turret as Mines seem only a place holder for something in our future. Yet also, "speed" has yet to become a valuable defense tool, other than for small fighters or a ship like the Clipper. When the Python first came out it was extremely fast, making it perfect for high speed getaway, yet became an even better fighter. The great defensive speed of the craft offset speed's ability to upset combat roles because the Python has/had the ability of becoming heavily armed. It would seem that speed has been abandon as a defensive tool within cargo transport craft and is always hindered by the ability to arm all craft.

Turrets...
Turrets seem to be the deterrent solution, yet what exactly effects AI Craft (to a lesser extent Player) that would cause them to not follow while a getaway was in progress?
My first thoughts are Lasers, as AI tend (in my observations) to react defensively when their shields become weak or down.
A Clipper made lunch meat of me the other day, because by the time I could identify him by targeting, "the time it took to turning to ID him" gave him enough time to have taken my shields and finish me off in a very short time... "yet only the time it took to see him".
"Fire at Will"? "Target Only"?
The Clipper's Speed, Armament and my lack of maneuvering skills... I think that engagement is very fitting for this discussion of Turrets, which are for now, "the only effective rear view mirror firepower we have".
For now... My answer to escaping this situation is to improve my Flight Assist Off personal training and equip more Turret Lasers as I afford them.
A dedicated Cargo Carrier player, has only Turrets and Speed to jump point, when fighting is not the solution.
Comments always welcome...
~Space Time~

 

[JeffRyan]

Turrets were nerfed? I thought they were already pretty unuseable.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

You know what else is horribly inefficient because almost everything else is more useful?
Small multicannons lasers. Small multicannons are terrible! They're so weak! Almost anything would be better!

That doesn't mean that they don't have their usefulness, even if it's pretty exclusively sidewinders and eagles.

Well, isn't the reason for that due to larger ships have their magical 33% reduction per weapon size against them.

 

[Cmdr_Prussian]

Turrets currently are ridiculously weak beyond usable and also player has no control over them. Like being able to tell turrets to cease fire by simply pressing the fire button again instead of having to change weapon groups/deployment/unlock target

REP for OP

 

[Starwolfe]

Problem is if the other Guy just takes a Boost into your Direction and Disables Flight assist while using Reverse himself he will be sitting behind you. And you will be forced to Maneuver Blindly.
Rinse and Repeat.
Getting him into Fixed Arc this Way is almost Impossible Anyways so you can only use Gimballed for this.
But that will be easily Thwarted by him throwing a Chaff and Immediatly Boosting into your Dead Zone again. And then Again pulling an nice Amount of Damage into you before you managed to maneuver him into your Front Arc Again.


I told you Repeatedly.
NPCs might Fall for such Simple Tricks.
I know that because I often enough Killed NPCs doing this with my Transporters when Farming Money.
But Players are not that Stupid that are unable to get behind an Corvette Flying Reverse with an Speed of maybe 160 if we are generous...

I think you still miss it.

If you turn while he's with assist off, he still needs to travel and turn more than you to get around. Its a fundimental part of the trick.
The result is you turn tighter in reverse forcing the opponent to fly faster and turn larger to get around going forward. They spend more time in your field of view.
Even if they target and shoot you, its back to the numbers game - bigger ships have more shield, hull and potential damage than a smaller craft. You come out on top.

Try it out some time, you'll find it is remarkably easy to keep targets in the sights by it. NPCs would need a bit more movement managements cause of the AI issues, but it is still there.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

Well, isn't the reason for that due to larger ships have their magical 33% reduction per weapon size against them.

Wouldn't call it magical. Larger ships have thicker hulls. Even if they didn't, there's a comparatively very small number of weapons worse than a small multicannon. Well, this is assuming we don't count most powerplay weapons.

 

[DragoonKnight]

Wouldn't call it magical. Larger ships have thicker hulls. Even if they didn't, there's a comparatively very small number of weapons worse than a small multicannon. Well, this is assuming we don't count most powerplay weapons.

Thicker hull should just be represented with more hull armor. This is more like built-in damage reduction.

 

[Sunleader]

I think you still miss it.

If you turn while he's with assist off, he still needs to travel and turn more than you to get around. Its a fundimental part of the trick.
The result is you turn tighter in reverse forcing the opponent to fly faster and turn larger to get around going forward. They spend more time in your field of view.
Even if they target and shoot you, its back to the numbers game - bigger ships have more shield, hull and potential damage than a smaller craft. You come out on top.

Try it out some time, you'll find it is remarkably easy to keep targets in the sights by it. NPCs would need a bit more movement managements cause of the AI issues, but it is still there.

Mate the Problem is.
Even with that Advantage your still less Maneuverable than Him.


And he wont be Boosting to your Side or something. He will Boost Right at you and will be Behind you the moment he Passes You.
How many Shots do you think you have Eaten before you finally get him into your front again ????
He might have an slightly Bigger Way to Cover. But when your Going Backwards your also at best going at an Speed of 200. While he is Nicely doing 380 by Boosting.
He can Cover Twice the Way you do in the same Time because you can not use Boost.

Worse. Even if you manage him to get him in your Front now and then for a Short While. Going Backwards its almost Impossible to Aim Fixed Weapons at him because that would prevent you from keeping him in Front for an longer Moment.
So you can only use Gimballed Weapons here.
But as he can Just Boost Past you. He will for that time just Throw you a Chaff. And then give you a few nice Hits with his Railgungs while Passing you and sitting at your Rear Again.


Mate no Offense.
But the Tactic your describing is something most newer Players are Attempting to do when First Encountering this Problem because most NPCs will simply Follow you and thus stay in your Arc.
And in PVP its usually ending with the Fighter hardly taking any Damage at all while the Corvette is Destroyed or usually will attempt to Run away after Realizing how Fruitless this Tactic is because the Human Fighter simply Boosts past you and then waits for you to turn around again while Shooting at you.
Repeating that Cycle over until your Dead while he hardly takes any Damage at all.

 

[Sunleader]

Thicker hull should just be represented with more hull armor. This is more like built-in damage reduction.

Its neither Magical nor is it because Thicker Hull.
Its because there is an Larger Area that needs to be Damaged which is Resulting in less Damage being Dealt to it.

Because if you Put a Needle into an Sheet of Paper you only get a Small Hole. If the Sheet of Paper is Big enough it wont really Care about that. Its Structural Integrity wont be Compromised.
But if you Ram an Pencil Through it. You can assume that you got an High Chance to Cause the same Paper Sheet to Tear apart in that Area if the slightest additional Force is Applied.

In Reality this would need to be done Double Tough.
Not only should Smaller Weapons cause less Damage on Large Targets.
But Large Weapons should Receive an Damage Bonus on Small Targets as well.

An Large Weapon Hitting a Small Ship should get an 66% Damage Bonus.
That would also go a Great Way to improve the Situation for Larger Ships and giving them the Ability to Fight Smaller Ships with Turrets.
Because then Turrets while still not being very Useful against other Enemy Large Ships due to their Lower Damage Output compared to Fixed or Gimballed Weapons.
Would actually become useful against Small Vessels because they get a whopping 66% Damage Bonus on them which brings them up to the same Damage an Fixed Weapon would do.

 

[Universal Evil]

Its neither Magical nor is it because Thicker Hull.
Its because there is an Larger Area that needs to be Damaged which is Resulting in less Damage being Dealt to it.

Because if you Put a Needle into an Sheet of Paper you only get a Small Hole. If the Sheet of Paper is Big enough it wont really Care about that. Its Structural Integrity wont be Compromised.
But if you Ram an Pencil Through it. You can assume that you got an High Chance to Cause the same Paper Sheet to Tear apart in that Area if the slightest additional Force is Applied.

In Reality this would need to be done Double Tough.
Not only should Smaller Weapons cause less Damage on Large Targets.
But Large Weapons should Receive an Damage Bonus on Small Targets as well.

An Large Weapon Hitting a Small Ship should get an 66% Damage Bonus.
That would also go a Great Way to improve the Situation for Larger Ships and giving them the Ability to Fight Smaller Ships with Turrets.
Because then Turrets while still not being very Useful against other Enemy Large Ships due to their Lower Damage Output compared to Fixed or Gimballed Weapons.
Would actually become useful against Small Vessels because they get a whopping 66% Damage Bonus on them which brings them up to the same Damage an Fixed Weapon would do.

This is actually a great idea to balance out this problem with the turret being so weak compaired to fixed/gimballed...

Shame Fdev proberly wont do anything about this issue...

+ 1 Rep

 

[Snarfbuckle]

Its neither Magical nor is it because Thicker Hull.
Its because there is an Larger Area that needs to be Damaged which is Resulting in less Damage being Dealt to it.

Because if you Put a Needle into an Sheet of Paper you only get a Small Hole. If the Sheet of Paper is Big enough it wont really Care about that. Its Structural Integrity wont be Compromised.
But if you Ram an Pencil Through it. You can assume that you got an High Chance to Cause the same Paper Sheet to Tear apart in that Area if the slightest additional Force is Applied.

Which is already double dipping in damage resistance.

Larger ships already HAS more HP and armour by having larger Armour/Hull values.

If they want smaller weapons to do less damage they could have just bumped the armour/hull values.

 

[jay3141592]

The damage modifier for small guns doesn't make any sense indeed. A small hand gun inflicts the same kinetic damage regardless of whether I shot a mouse or an elephant; the elephant simply has more mass and can absorb it much better.

This should indeed be handled by the respective damage versus hull values. That'd be more obvious, and in line with any sort of reasonably sensible physics model.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

The damage modifier for small guns doesn't make any sense indeed. A small hand gun inflicts the same kinetic damage regardless of whether I shot a mouse or an elephant; the elephant simply has more mass and can absorb it much better.

This should indeed be handled by the respective damage versus hull values. That'd be more obvious, and in line with any sort of reasonably sensible physics model.

Exactly.

Eagle
Armour: 75
Mass: 50 tonnes

Anaconda
Armour: 945
Mass: 400 Tonnes

Small pulse Laser: DPS 3

The Anaconda has 800% the mass of an Eagle and 1260% the amount of armour of an Eagle.

Armour Damage against an Eagle: 4%
Armour Damage against an Anaconda: 0,4%
Anaconda damage by ADDITIONAL 66% damage reduction: 0,1%

So where exactly is it LOGICAL that a laser that does X damage suddenly makes 1/3 of that damage when the larger ship already takes 1/10 of the damage the smaller ship receives simply being more massive.

If the laser does X damage it should do X damage and Hull/Armour should be the defining factor, not a magical reduction in weapon efficiency.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

Thicker hull should just be represented with more hull armor. This is more like built-in damage reduction.

Thicker hull could not be represented with more armor. More armor would affect large weapons against large hulls. Large weapons are unaffected against large hulls. Only smaller weapons are affected against large hulls.

That would also go a Great Way to improve the Situation for Larger Ships and giving them the Ability to Fight Smaller Ships with Turrets.

You're being narrow minded. This won't just affect turrets, it will affect all weapons. And you don't bring a bazooka to shoot a motorcycle. Consider that large ships aren't supposed to be great at fighting smaller ones. Actually, large ships already do quite fine against smaller ones.

The damage modifier for small guns doesn't make any sense indeed. A small hand gun inflicts the same kinetic damage regardless of whether I shot a mouse or an elephant; the elephant simply has more mass and can absorb it much better.

This should indeed be handled by the respective damage versus hull values. That'd be more obvious, and in line with any sort of reasonably sensible physics model.

The elephant has a thicker (harder) skin. The bullet is slowed down some on entry, delivering less than total damage.

To make the example more extreme and more visible, shoot a mouse with a gun and shoot a tank with a small hand gun. The bullet bounces off the tank. The bullet will cleave the mouse in two.
Another extreme example to illustrate the mechanic, throw a dart at a mouse and throw a dart at an elephant. The dart will likely deliver a mortal wound to the mouse. The dart would probably hardly penetrate the elephant's skin.

Exactly.
So where exactly is it LOGICAL that a laser that does X damage suddenly makes 1/3 of that damage when the larger ship already takes 1/10 of the damage the smaller ship receives simply being more massive.

If the laser does X damage it should do X damage and Hull/Armour should be the defining factor, not a magical reduction in weapon efficiency.

Maybe you didn't read the post. It's because larger ships have thicker armor. Larger caliber weapons have no issue delivering their damage despite this. Smaller caliber weapons do. So smaller weapons do less damage. It makes perfect sense.

 

[Sunleader]

Which is already double dipping in damage resistance.

Larger ships already HAS more HP and armour by having larger Armour/Hull values.

If they want smaller weapons to do less damage they could have just bumped the armour/hull values.

Nope. Because that as well is Realistic.

1.
Armor has nothing to do with Hull Size Directly.
But an Bigger Ship usually has the Bigger Capacity for Armor and will thus usually have Thicker Armor.

2.
Larger Hull means that you also got more HP. Because you have an Larger Threshould of Stuff that needs to be Destroyed before your Ship is Destroyed.

3.
Larger Hull also means that Damage done to your Hull by smaller Weapons will be less Importand because it fails to cause anything that will Affect your Structural Integrity.


So Nope.
Both. The Smaller Weapons doing less Damage. AND The Larger Ship having more HP is Correct.
Because for a Fact. An Larger Hull has both Traits. Smaller Weapons will Create Less Damage AND You will need to cause more Damage to actually Destroy it.
Hence thats entirely Correct here.

The Armor is Variable and Depends on each Ship Independently
Which is in the Game as well. The Python for example which is a Medium Sized Ship. Has more Armor than the Clipper which is an Large Sized Ship.