I'm a bit concerned..

[Cosmos]

So I'd like to share a concern I have with regards to the game and how I think certain players or groups appear to have privileged access and influence, and I'd like to get your thoughts on the issue. Before I get started I'd like to make it clear that I have no issue with any player or group in particular, in fact I long argued for guilds and emergent game-play for ED, etc..

What appears to be happening here is that Frontier will, upon request, initiate certain favours for a group, as a thank you for something they deem favourably, or implement a suggestion they happen to like etc... On the face of it these things appear to be benign but I don't think they are even if the intentions of the developers were well intended.

As it stands certain groups are afforded privileged status and I believe there is a special section on the forums which is invite only for leaders of particular groups Frontier deem worthy. With groups being allocated a ranking.

Spoiler

This email is just a little bit of information about Player Group Ranks and what that means. We initially talked about player group ranks on this forum thread: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=167459

We’ve had an amazing number of groups register and it’s delightful to see so many different styles of play and activity covered amongst them.

In order to make sure that we’re able to support as many community groups as possible we’ve got some ranks and rewards. We’ve listed them at the bottom of this email. The main use of group rankings are internal but there are some benefits for group leaders that grow and develop their way up to the higher ranks. Every group is still able to submit for CGs, Minor Factions and ultimately contest to become a power.

We’ve put your rank down currently as ‘Dangerous’. This is the basic level of group meaning that you have direct contact details for the CM team and we will be informing you of updates and news that you can get involved in like the mayhem events I emailed about earlier. The Dangerous groups range from being small groups of 3 or 4 up to groups a little under 100 people. This is the type of rank for groups that want to be included in the conversation but aren’t as large or active as some of the larger groups.

We’re happy to review, discuss or change ranks if you feel the rank should be different for your group. Remember that with so many groups registered we had to draw an initial line and we could possibly have overlooked some groups.

The finalized ranks and details are below.



Dangerous - Dangerous groups are anyone that wants to be a part of the conversation. The only requirements are that you have a group and want to hear more news and updates from us. These groups will be added to the database and contacted via email when there are events, incentives or information that they might like to know about.


What Dangerous groups can expect from us…

- Regular communications about groups and events
- Direct contact with CM




Elite - Elite groups are groups that have an established and thriving sub-community. They might have an estimate of about 100+ member (but not always), run regular events which can be promoted and are supportive of the ED team and community. These groups will be able to submit their activity to us to be promoted in our newsletters, social media or an events schedule which will be creating in the coming weeks.

What Elite groups can expect from us…

- Community site promotional placement
- Social Media promotion and inclusion in comms chatter for key events where possible
- Access to group leaders’ private forum
- Access to competition and event prizing at Frontier Developments’ discretion



Triple Elite - The largest and most engaged sub communities belong in the ranks of Triple Elite. They are likely to have a huge and super-active community, with many hundreds of active members and are a positive influence to Frontier and the community as a whole.

What Elite groups can expect from us…

- Everything in the Dangerous and Elite categories
- Premium Social Promotion
- VIP invitation to Community Events
- Invitation to monthly Group Summit meetings hosted by CM on Skype with potential guest speakers

I do find all of this confusing and incoherent because for as long as I can remember during development FD did viriually all they could to not have the game based around groups or clans etc..

In all the online games I've played a situation like this has never occurred so hopefully people will understand where I am coming from; I expect for all players, and groups/guilds to be equally treated by the developers; Indeed, any achievements or influence should come down to what occurs in gameplay. For example, with EvE you'd gain control of an area and keep it by merit and playing the game, in WoW you'd be the first to down a boss etc.. . In ED we send a message to the devs and ask nicely for something? For a game where we are supposed to have ultimate freedom to blaze our own trail is this how its meant to work?

Another thing that I find troublesome is the implementation of player factions. Again, this is all so incoherent because apparently the game isn't meant to be group controlled. Certain groups have their faction at some rather important areas and I find in some situations the location offers said group an advantage over others. Whilst I won't go through them all there is presently one group (just for example purposes threre are others of concern) who has their name plastered all over the starting area of the game.

No matter how well intended said group might be.. does this not give them an advantage over others? And does planting certain groups factions at key or iconic locations in game represent fairness?

I just can't think of any other game where this occurs so maybe I don't quite get it. Nevertheless its something that doesn't sit quite right. So, what do you think? Have I got this all wrong?

 

[cmdr_Havalok]

WEll every game I know of has worked with its Player Groups/Clans/Guilds/Community outside of the game. The larger the group the bigger the voice. I don't think this is anything unusual. These groups bring players to the game after all. For this to be unfair to others it has to provide something that others cannot have in the game. An advantage. Minor Factions get their names on the BB and a TAG for their ship but what advantage does that really convey? The ships are not better. They don't get better prices at the stations. They do get a sense of their group in the game, and FD does advertise this as a "Player Driven Universe". Even small groups can request a Minor Faction you don't have to have a huge number of players. Indeed, when you put in the request FD has no way of knowing how large or small your group is. The Minor Factions are really more for RP purposes.

The Large External Groups certainly get FDs ear but that true anywhere. They don't get the final say in anything.

Is there something specific you are worried about?

 

[Salami]

I think frontier has a problem with this implementation, due to the game becoming in need of a total overhaul.
NPC's need a re-imagined AI, balance has to be redone, it would be quite an undertaking.
Don't get me wrong, I too ask for this, but it seems they're struggling with even the current balance, missions, bugs, and have a hard time even fixing these.
So, a total overhaul of this game, well...

But I am pro the MP change, should it come.

 

[Ydiss]

I think it's amazing, personally. I didn't know about this until now. If a group admin has successfully created a group that's hugely involved in promoting activities in game and/or has large/huge numbers of members, I think it's a fantastic gesture to provide them with these benefits. I imagine it must take a massive amount of effort for group owners to look after their group membership and promote activities. They deserve everything they get.

It's all positive for the game. I can't imagine how many players would not even play this game if, as a prime example, Mobius didn't exist or if the communities didn't run activities for others to take part in.

It sets this game apart from so many others that I've played.

 

[Cosmos]

I think it's amazing, personally. I didn't know about this until now. If a group admin has successfully created a group that's hugely involved in promoting activities in game and/or has large/huge numbers of members, I think it's a fantastic gesture to provide them with these benefits. I imagine it must take a massive amount of effort for group owners to look after their group membership and promote activities. They deserve everything they get.

It's all positive for the game. I can't imagine how many players would not even play this game if, as a prime example, Mobius didn't exist or if the communities didn't run activities for others to take part in.

It sets this game apart from so many others that I've played.

I'm not anti group by any means but my point is about how its being managed. I strongly disagree certain groups should have benefits others don't receive. If nothing else it puts smaller, less established groups at a disadvantage. Shouldn't achievement come from playing the game? Large groups can by the way easily promote themselves. I happen to think we have some great groups in game but all being equal, it appears some are more equal than others.

 

[lysan]

I don't have a problem with this, as I'm sure FD will try to balance the cons and pros.
Life is also a balance, and hardly ever fair. (I'm sure my destiny was to be a billionaire)

However FD need feedback, and the dedicated groups can give valuable feedback, beside [insert topic] sucks!

Of course FD need to be sure they cover all the areas and corners of the game, hence the balancing.
I understand your concern, and its definitely valid, I just believe we are in good hands.

 

[cmdr_Havalok]

Another thing that I find troublesome is the implementation of player factions. Again, this is all so incoherent because apparently the game isn't meant to be group controlled. Certain groups have their faction at some rather important areas and I find in some situations the location offers said group an advantage over others. Whilst I won't go through them all there is presently one group (just for example purposes threre are others of concern) who has their name plastered all over the starting area of the game.

No matter how well intended said group might be.. does this not give them an advantage over others? And does planting certain groups factions at key or iconic locations in game represent fairness?

I just can't think of any other game where this occurs so maybe I don't quite get it. Nevertheless its something that does sit quite right. So, what do you think? Have I got this all wrong?

So out of curiosity what System/Station and Faction are you talking about? I would like to go see for myself as I have not noticed it before, but I'm out on the edge of the bubble not near the starting points.

 

[Cosmos]

I don't have a problem with this, as I'm sure FD will try to balance the cons and pros.
Life is also a balance, and hardly ever fair. (I'm sure my destiny was to be a billionaire)

Life is certainly unfair. I generally play online games because the playing field is usually based upon equality, skill and ones actions in game and not privilege.

However FD need feedback, and the dedicated groups can give valuable feedback, beside [insert topic] sucks!

I hear you and I really tried to make the case as politely and as constructively as I could

Of course FD need to be sure they cover all the areas and corners of the game, hence the balancing.
I understand your concern, and its definitely valid, I just believe we are in good hands.

Well if nothing else its good to know the points I make have some merit.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

So out of curiosity what System/Station and Faction are you talking about? I would like to go see for myself as I have not noticed it before, but I'm out on the edge of the bubble not near the starting points.

Eravate.

 

[Salami]

Life is also a balance, and hardly ever fair. (I'm sure my destiny was to be a billionaire)

I smell paradoxes.
If life were to be about balance, then how can the world be in the state it is.
Also, one needs "fairdom" to become balanced.
Neither apply to the world.

Especially not with the ending:

(I'm sure my destiny was to be a billionaire)

A somewhat decent Sith Lord would say: "It's not your destiny."

 

[Certacito]

Minor Factions get their names on the BB and a TAG for their ship but what advantage does that really convey?

I am a member of a player faction that has its name in game on the BB. We also have a mention on the Galaxy map when a player looks at our home system. What we don't have is a tag on our ships, we show up like everybody else as "No Faction". We have about 160 members and lots of activity. We have as far as I can tell, as much of a voice as every other player group that is on the forum, so I see no advantage for us other than a sense of belonging to something bigger than ourselves. I can think of 1 or 2 groups that seem to have more than the ear of FD, but then maybe that is only how it appears as they are putting in a lot of effort to put themselves out there and organise things.

 

[{SAS}Stalker]

The in game groups aren't invite only they are open to anyone who wishes to put the effort into making and administrating a group of players. With regards having the Devs ears, its very very clear that they have a vision for where they are wanting to go and a development plan but they have always said that they will actively support emergent game play.

Group leaders have a direct contact with Zac and Ed (anyone can also do this by creating a group) but also anyone can submit news items and CG suggestions to the devs via the usual forum routes. Its not as if groups and group leaders are dictating the direction of the game in any way shape or form, if you think of it as an onion we can merely scratch our name on the outer layer and not much more. I think your concerns are pretty unfounded Cosmos to be honest.

 

[Hemlock Reaper]

I smell paradoxes.
If life were to be about balance, then how can the world be in the state it is.
Also, one needs "fairdom" to become balanced.
Neither apply to the world.

Especially not with the ending:
A somewhat decent Sith Lord would say: "It's not your destiny."

This happens in everywhere, no matter the origination or business.

 

[finchywinchy]

Hmm. Sounds like they're developing the metagame so they don't have to develop the actual game. Pity. If that's a concern for them, they should open the game up to modding, so all those folks working on fleshing out the fantasy could work on something tangible instead.

 

[Jypson]

I'm a solo player, and as things stand now, I would have no idea there were player groups at all if it weren't for the forums and /r/Elitedangerous. Maybe there are GALNET mentions as well, but I don't read GALNET at all now that the summaries have been removed from the station menu.

For me, that's important. I love you guys , but prefer the isolated experience in game. I'm not sure what your status is, but I feel fairly inoculated from the MP aspect. If you're part of a smaller community group and feel like you're not getting that warm FD embrace that you feel you oughta, I would say your concerns are valid and worth discussing indeed.

 

[Cosmos]

Hmm. Sounds like they're developing the metagame so they don't have to develop the actual game.

Certain moves do appear to be making up for a lack of native gameplay one would expect to normally accomplish such tasks. I think this hits the nail on the head.

 

[Haleks]

With regards having the Devs ears, its very very clear that they have a vision for where they are wanting to go and a development plan but they have always said that they will actively support emergent game play.

Asking to create a group by e-mail is emergent gameplay?
Giving us the means to create our own groups with dedicated tools/gameplay and efforts would be more like it...

 

[KING5TON]

Just put groups in the game already.
Allow people to create minor factions (the groups). Allow them to pick a home system (within reason). Allow people to sign up in game. Fold all this into PP.
This proposal is just rubbish IMO. You're not giving groups what they want and you're going to annoy your run of the mill players by giving groups preferential treatment.

 

[JeffRyan]

ANY group in ANY other game uses the same tools. Most ingame guilds that I know or have taken part in whether on Star Trek, EVE or TOR or whatever hardly uses the ingame tools for organisation other than chat. We use websites, enjin or principally teamspeak to organise. I can add facebook to that list as well. INGAME tools have usually been used only to identify the guild in game and for text chat. The only thing that's really missing is a way to say 'I'm a member of the Prismatic Imperium' in the game.

 

[Cosmos]

Just put groups in the game already.
Allow people to create minor factions (the groups). Allow them to pick a home system (within reason). Allow people to sign up in game. Fold all this into PP.
This proposal is just rubbish IMO. You're not giving groups what they want and you're going to annoy your run of the mill players by giving groups preferential treatment.

Yep, its the preferential treatment I find hard to stomach with FD being the gatekeeper to what actually happens on a seemingly ad hoc basis.

ANY group in ANY other game uses the same tools. Most ingame guilds that I know or have taken part in whether on Star Trek, EVE or TOR or whatever hardly uses the ingame tools for organisation other than chat. We use websites, enjin or principally teamspeak to organise. I can add facebook to that list as well. INGAME tools have usually been used only to identify the guild in game and for text chat. The only thing that's really missing is a way to say 'I'm a member of the Prismatic Imperium' in the game.

We're not talking about how groups organise themselves outside the game or which tools they choose to use. We are talking about preferential treatment for those selected and if thats a fair way to manage the game.

 

[Don Alvarez]

Running a very small group, I don't mind that FDEV gives preference to large groups on some things. I do take exception to being excluded from the group forums though. Just because I only operate a small group, it doesn't follow that I'm also lacking ideas for larger groups or group content in general. The simple fact is I just don't have the time or desire to manage one.