'Scratches head'.....ummm, okay, not sure of the relevance to my post but uh...ummm, congratulations I guess?
Yes PVP is unfair.
- Thread starter _Dastardly_
- Start date
'Scratches head'.....ummm, okay, not sure of the relevance to my post but uh...ummm, congratulations I guess?
Scanning - In general, scanning has no mechanical logic that it operates under. NPC Authority can scan to activate a fine or bounty, which in turn causes the appropriate entities to become hostile. Cargo scanning reveals what a person has in their hold, word for word no questions asked. Not a good approach. Kill Warrant Scanning is of questionable usefulness, especially without providing more information than it does now.
- Cargo Scanning -
In Supercruise: If the scanner can maintain an even vector with the target they reveal simple information about the contents of the ship's holds. This and many other mechanics scale in effectiveness with module class and time spent in uninterrupted, accurate use.
- User scans for 4/8/??? seconds to reveal tonnage/emissions/???
Tonnage: The Scanner reaveals within a % of accuracy, based on module quality vs target's possible loadout (anti scanning and smuggling modules), the weight of the target's haulage.
Emission: The scanner reveals within a % of accuracy, as above, heat, radiation effects, radio waves, etc, etc. The information is more or less vague based on the gap between a final score determined by Scanner vs Target loadout and possibly time of accurate scanning, distance, other variables to account for excellent piloting. Critical success in this case might tip you off that a ship is carrying slaves. ie, (CARGO SCAN READINGS: Tonnage - 10, Emissions: exothermic radiation, biological)
???: More could be thought up unless there simply isn't any other useful information regarding cargo that would be fair to gain during supercruise.
In Real-Space: Real space is where mechanical ability must be required more often or at least as often as possible. All scanning types should become more akin to fixed weapons vs gimbals (or possibly both types can exist with various pros and cons) and must be aimed at varying ranges and times depending on module class.
-Scanner scans for % of flat time based on scanner vs target loadout to reveal increasing information at each 25% completion of the scan. ie, quantity in separate units, type of haulage, whether it is stolen, whether it is hidden?!?.
BONUS: Dedicated smugglers must be 100% scanned or their cargo hatch disabled and 25% scanned to reveal hidden haulage, provided by new, specialized cargo holds.
- Kill Warrant Scanner becomes System Authority Transponder (SAT) -
In Supercruise: Just like discovery scanners, this module has a varying rate of success by distance, aim, etc to reveal nearby active warrants on spotted criminals (Whether by NPC's, other commanders or self). I would fully expect there to be fairness in eluding detection by going the long way around, perhaps difficult and expensive silent running in cruise, etc.
In Real-Space: Similar to the cargo scanner but probably much more time efficient than the current KWS, the SAT reveals, if it is not already active, the wanted status, warrants, their separate and total amounts and their locations of issue. The locations are important to real PvP bounty hunting and can be contained in nested menus for those naysayers I have met who think more information would be bad....
Any time after securing the wanted status an SAT user can toggle their transponder into a beacon, uploading the sighting to the local authorities, recording THIS as last spotted on the bounty boards (please remove solo and private group from the equation) and creating a unique signal instance target for other players and NPCs to drop into.
- Interdiction -
Interdictions are currently novel at best. Too easy to submit and escape from in 9/10 situations, they're a favorite for new and old players alike to whine about. Interdiction should be a much more escalation based interaction and also have mechanics in real space.
In Supercruise: The interdictor initiates against their target which is slowed by a the magic science I don't know what explanation ED uses. The mini-game does not start at this point. If an NPC target, their AI chooses how to react. If a PC, this gives both players a chance to initiate comms.
Victims of interdiction can submit or run. Period. Each choice must be meaningful and I'd expect interdiction AI to change, and harmless interdictions from NPCs to end still in supercruise when they perform a full scan.
If they choose to run and fail the subsequent mini-game, their FSD is damaged based on their FSD quality vs the mass and class of the interdictor. Possibly even how badly they failed. The cooldown time for failure is similar if not the same as it is now.
Choosing to submit is a safe route and is rewarded as such, however, submitting only to rely on an easy High or Low wake away is not the case any longer. Upon entering the instance with a submissive target, interdictor and victim are briefly interlocked upon the same trajectory and brought within 1km of each other. This allows for the mass mechanics to function more effectively and more often.
In Real-Space: During real space engagement an interdictor can be used to disrupt the target's drives. Real space interdiction requires careful piloting and energy management as it is very demanding on power, requires the user to remain within a certain parallel plane of the victim and is highly dangerous in the heat department.
The victim could be hampered in various ways. From not being able to boost during an effective period of full charge or something, having engine pips debuffed, etc. Either way, reintroduce the mini game on a smaller scale and couple it to the real-time angle of struggle for position between attacker and victim.
Further balancing measures for such a powerful tool include forcing it into a dedicated firegroup as well as the numbers for heat generation and energy consumption.
I'll just leave this here.
- Cargo Scanning -
In Supercruise: If the scanner can maintain an even vector with the target they reveal simple information about the contents of the ship's holds. This and many other mechanics scale in effectiveness with module class and time spent in uninterrupted, accurate use.
- User scans for 4/8/??? seconds to reveal tonnage/emissions/???
Tonnage: The Scanner reaveals within a % of accuracy, based on module quality vs target's possible loadout (anti scanning and smuggling modules), the weight of the target's haulage.
Emission: The scanner reveals within a % of accuracy, as above, heat, radiation effects, radio waves, etc, etc. The information is more or less vague based on the gap between a final score determined by Scanner vs Target loadout and possibly time of accurate scanning, distance, other variables to account for excellent piloting. Critical success in this case might tip you off that a ship is carrying slaves. ie, (CARGO SCAN READINGS: Tonnage - 10, Emissions: exothermic radiation, biological)
???: More could be thought up unless there simply isn't any other useful information regarding cargo that would be fair to gain during supercruise.
In Real-Space: Real space is where mechanical ability must be required more often or at least as often as possible. All scanning types should become more akin to fixed weapons vs gimbals (or possibly both types can exist with various pros and cons) and must be aimed at varying ranges and times depending on module class.
-Scanner scans for % of flat time based on scanner vs target loadout to reveal increasing information at each 25% completion of the scan. ie, quantity in separate units, type of haulage, whether it is stolen, whether it is hidden?!?.
BONUS: Dedicated smugglers must be 100% scanned or their cargo hatch disabled and 25% scanned to reveal hidden haulage, provided by new, specialized cargo holds.
- Kill Warrant Scanner becomes System Authority Transponder (SAT) -
In Supercruise: Just like discovery scanners, this module has a varying rate of success by distance, aim, etc to reveal nearby active warrants on spotted criminals (Whether by NPC's, other commanders or self). I would fully expect there to be fairness in eluding detection by going the long way around, perhaps difficult and expensive silent running in cruise, etc.
In Real-Space: Similar to the cargo scanner but probably much more time efficient than the current KWS, the SAT reveals, if it is not already active, the wanted status, warrants, their separate and total amounts and their locations of issue. The locations are important to real PvP bounty hunting and can be contained in nested menus for those naysayers I have met who think more information would be bad....
Any time after securing the wanted status an SAT user can toggle their transponder into a beacon, uploading the sighting to the local authorities, recording THIS as last spotted on the bounty boards (please remove solo and private group from the equation) and creating a unique signal instance target for other players and NPCs to drop into.
- Interdiction -
Interdictions are currently novel at best. Too easy to submit and escape from in 9/10 situations, they're a favorite for new and old players alike to whine about. Interdiction should be a much more escalation based interaction and also have mechanics in real space.
In Supercruise: The interdictor initiates against their target which is slowed by a the magic science I don't know what explanation ED uses. The mini-game does not start at this point. If an NPC target, their AI chooses how to react. If a PC, this gives both players a chance to initiate comms.
Victims of interdiction can submit or run. Period. Each choice must be meaningful and I'd expect interdiction AI to change, and harmless interdictions from NPCs to end still in supercruise when they perform a full scan.
If they choose to run and fail the subsequent mini-game, their FSD is damaged based on their FSD quality vs the mass and class of the interdictor. Possibly even how badly they failed. The cooldown time for failure is similar if not the same as it is now.
Choosing to submit is a safe route and is rewarded as such, however, submitting only to rely on an easy High or Low wake away is not the case any longer. Upon entering the instance with a submissive target, interdictor and victim are briefly interlocked upon the same trajectory and brought within 1km of each other. This allows for the mass mechanics to function more effectively and more often.
In Real-Space: During real space engagement an interdictor can be used to disrupt the target's drives. Real space interdiction requires careful piloting and energy management as it is very demanding on power, requires the user to remain within a certain parallel plane of the victim and is highly dangerous in the heat department.
The victim could be hampered in various ways. From not being able to boost during an effective period of full charge or something, having engine pips debuffed, etc. Either way, reintroduce the mini game on a smaller scale and couple it to the real-time angle of struggle for position between attacker and victim.
Further balancing measures for such a powerful tool include forcing it into a dedicated firegroup as well as the numbers for heat generation and energy consumption.
I'll just leave this here.
Your right (about the sums). Additionally if you re-read my post then you will notice it says 1-20 mil (not 20mil). Still the traders are not making the extreme numbers you were saying.
Still PVP is an isk SINK, not an ISK generator. Even if you steal every bit of cargo you can the rewards are minimal. It's like exploring.. people do it for fun.
The reason that the traders dont stop and drop cargo and go on their merry way.. is exactly because of my first point, because there is no penalty for killing them... so people will kill them for no reason. For every honorable pirate there's the the gleeful killer that will just nuke them without even opening comms and more that will wait till you drop cargo and then kill you. If there WERE penalties for killing people instead of disabling them and nicking cargo then you might get more 'peaceful' encounters.
There do need to be a lot of changes.. and I dont expect them to be in place instantly. However the forum is a place to discuss them and I've been trying to keep this thread (mostly) on the straight and narrow and viewing both points of view.
There's a lot of depth that we could add into the pvp game.. A (large) module that disrupts distress calls so that pirates have longer to attack the target before the cops come, better ways of siphoning off goods, beacons that disrupt FSD's. Proper hunting of criminals so that people can actually get revenge
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Add a tracking device into the game, so at least the victim can shoot and attach it to the attackers hull to allow tracking by bounty hunters across the galaxy.
Fixed that for you.
I take issue with pirate cost estimates.
The rebuy on my PvP fit FDL is 6.3 million and that's with the beta discount. I would assume most pirates farm RES sites to recoup costs in the event they lose their main stay/need to buff up their rebuy surpluss. A good High/HAZ Res is a farm rate of 1.2-2.4m an hour so a pirate would actually be out about 2.5-3 hours of play to recoup ship rebuy costs if they're fighting like most players fight, which is in a FAS or FDL (Most that I've seen anyway now that 2.5 buffed the power output of the FDL).
With that in mind I'd say risk pretty much evens out between the pvp and trader crowd. Only you're going to find a lot more traders than you are PvP players on any given run through a high-player-pop system in open.
The rebuy on my PvP fit FDL is 6.3 million and that's with the beta discount. I would assume most pirates farm RES sites to recoup costs in the event they lose their main stay/need to buff up their rebuy surpluss. A good High/HAZ Res is a farm rate of 1.2-2.4m an hour so a pirate would actually be out about 2.5-3 hours of play to recoup ship rebuy costs if they're fighting like most players fight, which is in a FAS or FDL (Most that I've seen anyway now that 2.5 buffed the power output of the FDL).
With that in mind I'd say risk pretty much evens out between the pvp and trader crowd. Only you're going to find a lot more traders than you are PvP players on any given run through a high-player-pop system in open.
There's a lot of depth that we could add into the pvp game.. A (large) module that disrupts distress calls so that pirates have longer to attack the target before the cops come, better ways of siphoning off goods, beacons that disrupt FSD's. Proper hunting of criminals so that people can actually get revenge
There's plenty of depth they could add. The biggest thing they could start with is when you blow out a ship's drives they come to a complete stop--or give the pirates tractor beams.
I don't like killing traders that I pirate. I try to avoid it at all costs. But it happens because it is the only way we as pirates can force them to co-operate.
Just what are the risks/rewards for piracy?
do the fines bring increased heat from the fuzz as they stack up?
are they scaled justly from theft of cargo up to plain old murder?
there are a lot of complaints from people stacking shadow mission worth millions not being able to complete then due to randomly being investigated for smuggling at any given point in the run.
So to hijack someone and steal cargo at gun point, is armed robbery and is quite serious should mean a reasonably high bounty placed on your head.
To hijack someone and destroy them should be considerably higher and bring extra heat your way. And the more you do it the more investigation it brings.
Stack 10 shadow missions it becomes harder work. interdict and kill 10 innocents, similar interaction with scaling NPC system authorities trying to bring you down, as well as high bounty to attract the PVP element your keen to build.
This is especially the case in policed systems, not so much anarchy systems as they are supposed to be more hardened hence the name (not completely lawless if there is governance there but a bit more Wild West rather than a free for all, got to be some spice to life).
And should you be caught. Being as there is no prospect of jail time or such in game. Your assets are seized, no insurance, your a pirate you don't believe in insurance.
do the fines bring increased heat from the fuzz as they stack up?
are they scaled justly from theft of cargo up to plain old murder?
there are a lot of complaints from people stacking shadow mission worth millions not being able to complete then due to randomly being investigated for smuggling at any given point in the run.
So to hijack someone and steal cargo at gun point, is armed robbery and is quite serious should mean a reasonably high bounty placed on your head.
To hijack someone and destroy them should be considerably higher and bring extra heat your way. And the more you do it the more investigation it brings.
Stack 10 shadow missions it becomes harder work. interdict and kill 10 innocents, similar interaction with scaling NPC system authorities trying to bring you down, as well as high bounty to attract the PVP element your keen to build.
This is especially the case in policed systems, not so much anarchy systems as they are supposed to be more hardened hence the name (not completely lawless if there is governance there but a bit more Wild West rather than a free for all, got to be some spice to life).
And should you be caught. Being as there is no prospect of jail time or such in game. Your assets are seized, no insurance, your a pirate you don't believe in insurance.
Adding to the argument about pvp'ers facing a lot more buy back time than traders, how often does a pvper lose a ship to a trader ? (Unless they get rammed by a panicking t9 then the actual chance of a loss is quite low. )
Now consensual pvp between two parties that want to participate in pvp is something else. Then there's a good chance of losing a ship, but that's a different beast and not covered by this thread....
Now consensual pvp between two parties that want to participate in pvp is something else. Then there's a good chance of losing a ship, but that's a different beast and not covered by this thread....
While you are right that there is a vast mentality difference, you like to paint the PvEer in yet another variant of the stereotype. A PvEer may very well know all about the "current meta" and choose not to play it, precisely because they are not interested in PvP. Not only because that very meta may run counter to the PvE meta (PvP: burst all the things; PvE: sustain is everything), but also because not everyone is a minmaxer who plays to get the most efficient killer loadout at the cost of all else. Heck, some people may just prefer a specific type of ship or gun simply because they like how it looks or sounds. For example, what if someone is so big a fan of gatling guns that they only run with multicannons, no way to keep up with a high burst damage PvP meta designed around pushing through SCBs as quickly as possible?
The fundamental difference is not even between PvE and PvP, but between minmaxers and the more relaxed players, and this divide exists also among PvE players (but a PvE-minmaxed setup is still quite different and usually not that effective in PvP). Other MMOs have specialized gameplay for minmaxer (e.g. WoW: Arena and Rated Battlegrounds for PvP minmaxing, Hardmode raiding for PvE minmaxing). But while a relaxed and a minmaxing PvE player do get along because neither is there to attack the other, but take on difference challenges presented by the game (relaxed PvEer goes to RES, minmax PvEer does SSS alone), PvP always needs a high level of minmaxing and is always about engaging other players. And while it may not be griefing, it takes a high degree of disregard for fellow player's interest and leisure time to believe oneself entitled to force them into a competitive situation where there is simply no chance. You say PvPers rise tot he challenge? Attacking fresh Sidewinders or unarmed traders* is anything but a challenge. It's a nice piece of twisted logic to make that the PvEers fault for not "accepting the challenge" when PvP occurs where all the challenges is on the PvEers side, and non on the PvPers.
Imo, "proper" PvP can only exist where both sides are in it for the PvP, and the game is designed for it, not just to "also allow it". For example, I do play shooters. TF2, Battlefield, Eternal Crusade. Those games are basicaly 99% PvP and I love it, because the game is built for it, everything is balanced for it, and getting shot in the head doesn't void the previous 2 hours of what you've achieved. You stand up (respawn) and fight again. You lose maybe half or a whole minute of respawn time and running back to battle. In ED, you may lose an hour, or an entire day, when you are expressly not in the mood or equipment to PvP (and sorry, just arming and shielding a trade-Conda is no match for a minmaxed PvP loadout anyway, so why even try?).
For the record, I don't say it's griefing to attacked a lone trader, not even when you are attacking in a wing of Clippers. But doing it and then claiming the moral high ground and accusing the PvEer for either being too dumb or lazy to check out (and follow) the PvP meta, or cowardly when they go into Mobius or solo (I am not saying you ever said such, but lots of PvPers do indeed regard PvE players as cowards for going the only route to absolutely stay away PvP) is utterly, deeply, silly.
(*Unless it is for reasonable piracy. Not demanding "all their cargo", not demanding it to be abandoned so you can sell it legally (What kind of sissy pirate is that, afraid of being scanned by the cops? As of they're going to pay the fine at all), not killing for the sake of it. I was once flying a Hauler, got interdicted by a Cobra. Demanded 4 tons of my cargo. I tried to get away with 1 ton, he attacked, I dropped all simply because that was quicker than dropping 4, then fled barely holding together, the other player stopped shooting once I had given in to the demand. It was great fun. It was the only time I had such an experience. Nowadays it seems piracy consists of a) "pirates" that just trying to kill anything looking vaguely trader-ish, b) pirates that demand the entire cargo jettisoned only as legal canisters even if they are physically unable to haul away even a tenth of it.)
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Oh when I started out I am embarassed to admit it but I lost a couple ships to traders, way long ago. That's when I didn't know what I was doing. Most pirates don't worry about the traders, we worry about the CMDR bounty hunters and psychos which are after us all the time.
I said this earlier in the thread but the discussion has moved on far enough since then that it bears repeating. Bounty hunting, especially PvP bounty hunting needs some attention. The key to this is fixing the wake scanner/wake following. To be useful it has to be reliable. The servers should track not jut where we are, but the last N instances we used to be in. If someone follows my (high or low) wake out of one instance, if the instance I traveled to is still there they MUST be joined to it. If I'm gone or it doesn't exist any more and the game needs to put them in a new one then the game MUST spawn the (high or low) wake for them showing where I went. If I get N/2 instance swaps ahead of him then they could start seeing "Weak high energy wake" or "Weak low energy wake" to warn them I'm getting away from them. Ideally I or the spawned wake would be autotargeted on their scanner if they dropped in to the instance from following my wake
Wake scanners need to work faster so there's a reasonable chance of keeping up with a ship stringing their jumps. Right now try to follow my high-wake and if I'm running away my FSD will be charging for my second jump about the same time you complete the scan. How MUCH faster we won't be able to know until they work reliably though. It will definitely need to be faster than it is now, but I'm prepared for FD to wait on that balancing pass once chasing somebody through their wake(s) is reliable and isn't just a "one and done" thing.
Wake scanners need to work faster so there's a reasonable chance of keeping up with a ship stringing their jumps. Right now try to follow my high-wake and if I'm running away my FSD will be charging for my second jump about the same time you complete the scan. How MUCH faster we won't be able to know until they work reliably though. It will definitely need to be faster than it is now, but I'm prepared for FD to wait on that balancing pass once chasing somebody through their wake(s) is reliable and isn't just a "one and done" thing.
Or asking for an actual risk/reward system.
High sec systems have a thriving economy because of safety, but that safety shouldn't come for free. From a lore perspective the police and navy required to keep a system safe can't be cheap, so naturally that will mean taxes. But on the other hand that's where your cheap and squishy Types 7s and 9s should be flying, bulk trading low value commodities like grain and fish. On the other hand anarchies are where a daring Python trader should make a killing importing just about anything, since nobody else would want to.
Makes sense from a lore PoV, and is good for gameplay. Allows traders to exchange safety for profit and vice versa and makes a lot more sense than the current system.
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Would be nice huh?
Hisec higher populations should have lower prices since more people feel safe to trade there in volume, Lowsec should have lower prices on supply as less people would be buying. Making trading from low -> High (or vice versa) higher profit.
Someone already made this point in this thread I think, and I replied that it's not suppose to be a general jab at PvE players in general, but people that refuse to adapt to the environment in Open and complain about it.
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For the record I don't recall calling anyone that use Mobius/Private/Solo to be a coward seriously. Also, Open Play is where PvP and PK will happen, if someone wishes to play in Open, one must be prepared for everything the environment offers, not the part they prefer to participate in only.
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I would say that the point made, that the PVP player is forcing their pvp meta on the player(s) engaged in non PVP activites, if the boot was on the other foot how much would the PVP player like it? If they *had* to trade for 1:1 hours so that they could PVP (or some other ridiculous idea). (This is a metaphorical sideline to the current discussion not a serious suggestion.. simply an attempt to get the PVP side to see how it would be for them...)
I get what you are saying, what I don't get is why insist on playing in Open when there is a massive player base in Mobius to interact with.
I just think that some people want every part of the game there own way. The only way PvPers get to role-play is in Open so why shouldn't they be allowed to enjoy the game their way as well
I think there is a good argument for Mobius to become an official game mode (non-pvp enforced by game rules).
I already talked about this, too, the argument of "forcing playstyle upon another" can be made from either side and is pointless.
Players being Traders, Explorers and Miners dont force PVP'ers to Trade, Explore and Mine. Yes the GAME framework might, since those are credit generating activities, but that's not the same thing.