Please see my reply on the previous page.
i will now edit the post in question. so it does not turn in to 5 pages of me answering the same basic thing.
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Yes PVP is unfair.
- Thread starter _Dastardly_
- Start date
i will now edit the post in question. so it does not turn in to 5 pages of me answering the same basic thing.
Catering to this kind of attitude kills games.
YES! the occasional interdiction by an incompitent system security viper is not punishment enough, commiting a crime needs to be more dangerous, having to live as a proper fugitive will be more fun as well.
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He is allowed to have his method of gaming.. If he would rather end up in a side winder than give a pirate 1t of biowaste he is 100% allowed to chose that path..
Having said that. Given only those 2 options i would have to imagine that he would give the cargo.
But if he was to stick to his guns and go out with a bang. then i find that as a perfectly valid choice.
Clearly you've never encountered an NPC... or played any of the other Elite game then...?
But yes, unlike ANY OTHER MMO GAME there are private a solo modes so most likely these will be quite suitable for you.
See:
Titus's Law: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison of PVP to Griefing approaches 1"
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I personally don't like the idea of there being a difference between Player on Player crime vs Player on NPC crime.
Escalating responses by Minor Factions, then Major Faction wide bounties, denial of permission to dock etc etc should be just the consequence of crime, regardless of if it is PvP or PvE.
Security ratings of systems, their government, faction allegiance, and the types of ships targeted should all play a part in the escalation of response, but we should all play by the same rules.
High Security systems belong to Major powers should be safe and quick to issue Major faction wide bounties, dispatch bounty hunters, and issue travel or docking bans.
Back waters with little wealth and security less so
Pirates and murders alike (does this include the opposing PP faction Murder which is a crime but they are an Enemy as well so mixed messages as to any additional penalties response?) can then base themselves out of Anarchies or independent systems where they can keep their noses clean, or base in a Major faction and cross the boarder to committee crimes, but all the while having to deal with a mark on them when they cross the boarder, needed to return home or flee the neutral jurisdiction and hope Player and NPC bounty hunters don't cross the boarder themselves to risk being labelled a murder as well by claiming their extra-jurisdictional bounty.
See that's s the thing, we have the wonderful KWS, which are, in my view, mean to encourage the cross the board to find the criminals with huge bounties, say in the Federation, but are currently hiding in say an Alliance system where they are clean, so the bounty hunter is faced with the "Do I commit the crime of murder in the Alliance to claim this Federation bounty"
This game play isn't really a thing, and this would seem to punish that further as it would be "clean murder' as far as jurisdiction and crime would go.
Okay so Players are Part of the Pilots Federation and so they might disagree with infighting to a degree, but if I as a player go to a low security back water in a poorly defensible ship, I should be aware and accept that is a risk, be it from a player or NPC, and I don't see why the PF should get involved if another member boils me.
If you need to punish those in High Grade ships boiling Harmless Sidewinders in the starting locations, focus the effort on that instance rather than make an additional punishment for any Player on Player action in general, just due to an imbalance in ships, when we are supposed to be able to fly the ship we choose and not consider them a progression, or an imbalance in rating which is more often than not the indication of time spent killing NPCs.
I mean we could get the other imbalance where the Clean player with the lower rating and lesser ship tries to attack the wanted player who has a higher rating in the better ship.
The attack initiated by the clean player wont be a crime but if they lose, would the wanted player be subject to the additional sanctions?
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Nah, I dont agree with you here Titus, and you know I respect you
Why is it I never have these problems? No matter where I am I always have an escape route plotted, I can't remember the last time I ever felt like other players ruined my experience (ITs never happened).. In fact there have been several times where I have been serially chased and interdicted, I elluded my foe in such case, and felt a great sense of achievement. They increased my enjoyment of the game beyond any NPC ever did..
Even if they had 'gotten' me I'm happy to accept that.. When we have a lot of cash in the bank, a few loses arent so bad, surely?
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I think this is what many people desire...at least on the surface.
However, I see some problems. First, 'low level' vs. high level, will be diminishing over time. The longer the galaxy is live, everyone moves up...so the number of players between Elite titles gets smaller over time. Elite level also does not measure 'target capability'.
Honestly, it generally means someone spent a lot of time in RES's. This does not equate to PvP capability. I still foresee many complaints from players getting PvP killed in Open....and many will be upset that there is 'still no real justice system'..when they are killed and their combat rating does not warrant a legal response.
The other issue I see is that 'bad guys' love to be challenged by the environment that is created from being a 'bad guy'. This means that what appears to be a punishment to the 'good guys' actually acts as a reward for the 'bad guys'...leading to more murder of disparate combat ranking. All in all...this seems like a bad idea. (case in point: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=226764&p=3485169&viewfull=1#post3485169)
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Nah, I dont agree with you here Titus, and you know I respect you
Why is it I never have these problems? No matter where I am I always have an escape route plotted, I can't remember the last time I ever felt like other players ruined my experience.. In fact there have been several times where I have been serially chased and interdicted, I elluded my foe in such case, and felt a great sense of achievement.
Even if they had 'gotten' me I'm happy to accept that.. When we have a lot of cash in the bank, a few loses arent so bad, surely?
Oh we don't disagree here, he didn't ruin my fun - I was just annoyed that I wasn't paying attention and got caught - and it was in an anarchy system. His actions were justified.
I suppose I didn't say IN A HIGH OR MEDIUM SECURITY SYSTEM here. I'll always point to https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Crimewatch here - I don't play Eve anymore, but they got this right. System security should come in to play - if you are a trader in LP98-132, you should be afforded NO protection, Your death should not carry any punishment.
In Sol however, any kind of piracy or murder should carry a high punishment.
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I was pirated twice today, it was my first time too!
I usually fly Clipper, Anaconda or nowadays Cutter, but today I was going around in my Cobra, because I wanted to go and collect the bounties I've had waiting around everywhere, in the systems with only outposts or something I can't land at with big ships.
Of course I was flying empty, so the pirates got nothing.
The first attempt was by a single Imperial Courier and after the interdiction I just boosted out of the range, empty Cobra is way too fast. But then he asked if I could stop for a scan, and said that he's trying piracy in a new ship Sure, I stopped and told him what I was doing and that I was empty, and after the scan we went on our ways.
The second time was, I think, basicly middle of nowhere which was surprising, it was a wing of three, at least an Anaconda, Federal assault ship and third something I can't remember. After the interdiction I boosted as a reflex but then instantly thought that they might be able to shoot me down before I'm out of the range, so I stopped before they greeted me. Nice bunch of people too, they asked if I was a trader, and I explained what I was doing, and then they wished me good luck and we went separate ways.
Now, I was thinking, maybe there could be some pirate flag the pirates could fly, which would impose a set of rules on both parties, and breaking them would have consequences, like for the trader an attempt to run would halve/remove?/something their insurance for that piracy attempt, and complying would give an partial insurance for their cargo? (for not risking the ship cause that would cost more to replace). I dunno. For the pirate breaking the rules should have harsh consequences. There could be some pirate rep involved that would dictate how much cargo the pirate could ask. Of course there would need to be extensive checks to prevent abusing something in this.
Killing without proper reason should also have harsh consequences. Repeated killing even harsher. Yes, npc's too.
I usually fly Clipper, Anaconda or nowadays Cutter, but today I was going around in my Cobra, because I wanted to go and collect the bounties I've had waiting around everywhere, in the systems with only outposts or something I can't land at with big ships.
Of course I was flying empty, so the pirates got nothing.
The first attempt was by a single Imperial Courier and after the interdiction I just boosted out of the range, empty Cobra is way too fast. But then he asked if I could stop for a scan, and said that he's trying piracy in a new ship
Sure, I stopped and told him what I was doing and that I was empty, and after the scan we went on our ways.The second time was, I think, basicly middle of nowhere which was surprising, it was a wing of three, at least an Anaconda, Federal assault ship and third something I can't remember. After the interdiction I boosted as a reflex but then instantly thought that they might be able to shoot me down before I'm out of the range, so I stopped before they greeted me. Nice bunch of people too, they asked if I was a trader, and I explained what I was doing, and then they wished me good luck and we went separate ways.
Now, I was thinking, maybe there could be some pirate flag the pirates could fly, which would impose a set of rules on both parties, and breaking them would have consequences, like for the trader an attempt to run would halve/remove?/something their insurance for that piracy attempt, and complying would give an partial insurance for their cargo? (for not risking the ship cause that would cost more to replace). I dunno. For the pirate breaking the rules should have harsh consequences. There could be some pirate rep involved that would dictate how much cargo the pirate could ask. Of course there would need to be extensive checks to prevent abusing something in this.
Killing without proper reason should also have harsh consequences. Repeated killing even harsher. Yes, npc's too.
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Nah, I dont agree with you here Titus, and you know I respect you
Why is it I never have these problems? No matter where I am I always have an escape route plotted, I can't remember the last time I ever felt like other players ruined my experience (ITs never happened).. In fact there have been several times where I have been serially chased and interdicted, I elluded my foe in such case, and felt a great sense of achievement. They increased my enjoyment of the game beyond any NPC ever did..
Even if they had 'gotten' me I'm happy to accept that.. When we have a lot of cash in the bank, a few loses arent so bad, surely?
Sure, if we have a lot in the bank. What if some psycho commander goes after and kills a player who has everything invested in the ship and cargo. The victim is now back in a Sidewinder. It's Ok for us, sure. They take me down, it costs me 9 million. I can make that back in a couple of hours. But the low level players can really be hurt by this. Such an action is good for no one.
Well the commander shouldn't be so silly to invest everything in their ship and stock. But see above, I do agree system security should come in to play
If you choose to take you Type 9 with hundreds of gold into an anarchy system - with nothing to cover the insurance - then that's your risk. It's literally like entering a war zone with a truck full of food and medical supplies.
If you choose to take the lower risk and stick to high security systems I do agree the response against the aggressor should be higher.
I like you thinking here.
Kind of a "don't be a hero clause" in the insurance contract, with compliances offering piracy insurance on the cargo stolen.
Even makes sense for the Insurance company as the cost of the cargo would usually be less than the cost of the ship.
You live and you learn. When I was a new player I thought it would be a good idea to take on an Anaconda with a Viper. You can imagine how that turned out for me.
I don't really agree. Some are like this, sure, but for most I believe that what is undesirable is confrontational human interaction. AKA, non-consensual PvP.
True, for many anything short of a PvP flag would be too little. But it does deserve telling in a thread where a developer has asked feedback on whether something he proposed would "reconcile the two factions of the PVP and PVE."
For what is worth, I do tend to avoid most threads about PvP in Open exactly because I don't take part in it, and won't even bother trying it until I truly feel that everyone in Open is there because they want the PvP element.
Not quite. From what I see, most simply want to be able to meet other friendly players without having to ever worry about meeting anyone that would force them into a PvP confrontation, which includes player pirates.
The game already allows players to jump into Solo mode and, in so doing, completely avoid any chance of PvP interactions, so I believe piracy wouldn't be (much) harmed by adding ways for players to engage in the social aspect without being forced to interact with players they see as undesirable.
Actually, no loss PvP makes a lot of sense. Lots of PvPers will only bother engaging in PvP when they are assured to not lose anything if they don't win the match. I'm typically among those, both because I hate suffering setbacks in game, and because I hate even more causing setbacks for others. It's part of the reason so many PvP games don't have death penalties in PvP, even when they do have those in PvE.
If you see allowing PvE players to meet each other without risk of PvP to be the same as killing piracy, then it's not just because those players don't like piracy; rather, it's because it's in the way of a feature they would love being implemented.
Though, just to come clear: I'm never going to take part in player piracy, neither as the pirate nor as the victim. Outside Arenas and Battlegrounds I don't ever attack first, so no chance of me being the pirate, even if I knew every other player was willing; and, as far as being the victim goes, I would rather uninstall, delete my account, and burn my boxed copy of the game than allow a player pirate to steal anything from me.
(Or, more likely, if I found myself in that situation I would combat log, no matter the punishment for doing so, as long as it served to deny the player pirate the chance of getting anything from me.)
This would make a lot of BB missions tricky as a lot of the combat ones make you kill an NPC in a neighboring system.
I'm having a spot of déjà vu... (dear Lord was that really three years ago!?)
Seriously, a few of us have been mooting the idea of impounding players' ships since before there were any ships because it was obvious to many even before alpha that if a game gives players the tools to be jerks towards other people, some of them will choose to be jerks. In an ideal world the game would present mechanisms that successfully dissuaded people from continuing to act like jerks, but depending on the structure of the game that can be difficult if not impossible.
So if you can't control the behaviour what can you do? You can remove the tools of the trade instead. A multi-billionaire with a fleet of fully kitted combat ships isn't going to be concerned about rebuys or legacy fines, but if you temporarily stick them in a stock Sidewinder with a mission-locked FSD and couple of non-upgradable spud guns it's going to put a serious crimp on their style.
This idea has popped up a few times and always polarises the community, but if Sandro is considering further tweaks to the crime and punishment system I think it's only fair that it gets another airing alongside the other oft-repeated recommendations.
And unlike the first time the "ASBO Sidewinder" was suggested, there's already an orange ship skin in the game.
Deal. But after every 10 hours in Solo, players have to login to Open and do rare goods trading in a shieldless Asp Scout for 10 hours.
I defend the innocent, I fight the crime - the pirates. I protect the newbies.
All of the above will get me wanted. The griefers, murderers and pirates are likely to not care about any of your additional penalties. All the good folks out there with me, will stop doing what they do.
NO to your question about higher penalties, it would be very counterproductive Sandro. No.
I'd also reply to the OP saying that PvP is not fair. It is. Ask for someone like me, there are whole factions of players who do this. Hire protection. Use roleplay for additional fun from the multiplayer factor of the game. Any newbie, trader, or explorer, can "hire" someone for protection (most people go for 1t of beer...) On the technical side, the actual combat is very fair. You can take out anything in a silly Courier or any other small ship. Elite is very skill-based, unlike other games that are grind-based.
Actually, if another player ever steals anything from me, no matter how little or how much I otherwise like the game, I'm out. I log off to never return. It has happened before (though it's very rare because I usually don't play games where there is even a remote chance of someone stealing anything from me).
So, I would go out with a bang. Because if I allowed the player pirate to take anything from me, I would leave the game in disgust, never to return, whereas merely losing everything I have would still leave open the possibility of playing the game again in the future.
(It might be worth noting that I have more games in my backlog than I expect to be able to play in my whole life. Hundreds of games, in fact, and that isn't even counting the games I would like to replay. So throwing away a game, any game, for whichever reason isn't a big deal for me.)
Hostile NPC encounters and hostile player encounters have nothing in common, at all, for me. NPC encounters are fun, entertaining, what I play games for; hostile player encounters, on the other hand, I rate as slightly more unpleasant than dealing with a rabid cat.
So, played all other Elite games. Loved them. Not only them, but I have literally played dozens of space sims, including every game in the X series, in the Wing Commander series, in the X-Wing series, and many others. Still, that doesn't make meeting other players in unwanted PvP any more enjoyable than scrubbing a toilet with a toothbrush.
As one would expect for the Go kill...
Civilians
Traders
Police
Political Agitators
Type Missions, you are literally killing innocents and or Authority figures
Or the contract killing of People of value to the offended faction
Why would that not create issues?
Contracts to kill CLEAN targets should always result in a back lash or have consequences.
It makes them different from the Pirate Hunting or Mercenary Combat Zone contracts.
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