Yes PVP is unfair.

[Snarfbuckle]

Here's a daft idea that would be pretty amusing, let's have "Trapwinders", something like a bait car, harmless, clean, No faction NPCs that cruise around in or near the starting systems that show up as players, they wouldn't respond sensibly to comms, but a fair few noobs don't anyway as they haven't worked out the comms yet, or are busy learning to fly.
Would be Ganker spots trapwinder and interdicts, then 20 massively heavily armed unkillable (not actually unkillable, but effectively so) security ships drop in and wipe them out quicker than an FSD charge.
I did say it's a daft idea, and really won't work, but imagine how funny it would be to watch.

You know, that's not a bad idea.

Essentially undercover cops that works with the Pilot Federation to set up honeytraps with fake transponders to catch perpetrators in the act.

Now, the law enforcement response could be dialed down to something more reasonable but I think it could be fun - especially if they are designed as "fake" CMDR's that we cannot see if they are real or not.

 

[2M1R]

In my opinion starting systems must have extra security... In other systems should be a current wanted system. Yes this is brutal but this is cosmos it's beautiful and dangerous place.

 

[Titus Balls]

My thoughts on this are that a "griefer" is someone that murders other players for no monetary or strategic gain. A random serial killer. Does it for giggles to cause other commanders grief.

How would I define this?

The victim

• Is not Wanted
• Is not a member of an opposing PowerPlay faction (Enemy)
• Is not refusing to give up cargo*

The penalty for the attacker could then be as punitive as necessary.

*The exception is for piracy. There needs to be a formalisation of piracy. A pirate should be able send a "hand over some cargo" message as a function of their ship (maybe enabled when a cargo scanner is purchased). This gives the trader a set time (15 seconds) to drop cargo or become a "valid" target for attack. Their FSD would be cooling during that time, so they could not jump away. If they drop any cargo, they are classed as "co-operative" and are not a "valid" target. Any CMDR killing an invalid target would be treated as a griefer. This means traders who want to fight or run, would be "valid" to attack without incurring more than the normal bounty.​

This seems like the most straight-forward way to isolate griefers behaviour so that punishment measures can be taken.

i.e. an instant Wing of seven security Vultures arrives and intervenes the moment an attacker causes hull damage to a victim (fast federal response). Hull damage not shield damage, so "accidental" fire is not misinterpreted. Just don't fire on innocent unshielded commanders.

Whether these rules should apply to killing NPCs? Not my call.

Piracy, bounty hunting and PowerPlay remain unaffected. Thoughts? Improvements? Refinements?

I agree with all of this except we keep throwing about griefer and that does not dissuade them, in game I would define them as a murderer.

It's griefing by another name, but by defining it that way in-game the penalty for murder could be defined. These players should find themselves less and less welcome across the galaxy (but not totally, there should still be safe havens - but at the far end of civilised space where you won't find the best stuff).

I also believe murder should be carried through "death". As we don't die but just escape out ships destruction, why should they also escape justice?

But in the end they should also be able to redeem themselves - how, I don't have an answer yet.

 

[OamodSias]

You know, that's not a bad idea.

Essentially undercover cops that works with the Pilot Federation to set up honeytraps with fake transponders to catch perpetrators in the act.

Now, the law enforcement response could be dialed down to something more reasonable but I think it could be fun - especially if they are designed as "fake" CMDR's that we cannot see if they are real or not.

Pfft, the only adequate response is this:

Spoiler

... or nothing at all.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I personally don't think there should be any difference between player murder and NPC murder, They should both be punishable severly so an updated legal system needs to be in place, this is my idea below:

We need some kind of NPC comms for this to work so pirates can pirate NPC traders with a bit more ease and have NPC pirates pirate PC players in a better way instead of trying to murder them.

We need a security reputation system for Federation, Empire and Alliance. Starts of at 0. Getting caught doing anything criminal in their jurisdiction will cause it to go down into minus figures. The worse it is the more likely you will get interdicted by security forces, the higher it is the less likely. In independent systems you use an average of all three reps. Your rep will slowly go up or down to 0. Your rep can also cause problems with docking in high secruity systems if its bad enough. A really good smuggler will not have been scanned by security and therefore his rep will remain intact and be able to trade with the blackmarket at these places. Known pirates and murderers with enough bad rep wouldn't be tolerated at these safe places so would be turned away.

Make trading less profitble in the security of the inner bubble and more profitable in the lawlessness of the outer bubble and anarchy systems to make trading in dangerous areas more attractive. Make smuggling into the inner more secure bubble more profitable and less profitable in anarchy systems and low security systems in the outer bubble.

Anarchies shouldn't have a black market, but have most things as legal trade.

 

[KellyR]

Most anarchies only ban toxic waste anyway and who would want to sell that crap? I don't even want it on my ship.

 

[eza]

Do you (or any other folk, feel free to respond), feel that there should be no additional penalties for lopsided encounters? That the world should remain uncaring and cold as is (don't worry folk, this isn't a trick question - there's no right or wrong answer!)?

I personally think that the galaxy already offers plenty of opportunity to avoid PvP: doing your PvE in quiet areas of the galaxy or simply by jumping to another system when interdicted.

The previous Elite games were set in an uncaring world and were very challenging games. There was always an opportunity to get destroyed by something bigger and better than you.

Of course back then you could just reload your last save and try again.
Now we have to pay a small 5% of our ship's cost and we get it back and try again.

To make Elite Dangerous less dangerous would result in it no longer being an Elite game.


I think that simply improving the security system would be enough:
1. increase bounties across the board for both NPC and PC kills
2. make system authority ships more responsive to both crimes and criminals
3. add mass lock mechanic to high-wake jumps
4. invert mass lock mechanic so small ships lock big ones (due to small size being harder to resolve or something)

And optionally:
5. broadcast interdictions within system to local chat channel

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Most anarchies only ban toxic waste anyway and who would want to sell that crap? I don't even want it on my ship.

And that is the problem with the trade system. Who would trade food, you get so little for it. Most places without any agriculture would disapear as no one would take any food to them as there is zero profit in it. The commodities really need an overhaul. Maybe making the internal cargo weight and volume based. Would make more sense and would make trading in other stuff applicable.

 

[Mr_Blastman]

Excuse me, but this is a "multiplayer" game and a "co-op" game according to Frontiers own sales information.
If none-PvP type folks would like social play without a constant barrage of PvP, they should be able to - and also, it is a public game, so anyone can "stick their oar in" regardless of your opinion.

What constant barrage of PvP? PvP is RARE in Open. You can go weeks without it. Stop with the misinformation.

 

[{SAS}Stalker]

Time to get draconian on these PvP killer types...


You kill another player who is not wanted:

• You pay the 95% insurance cost of the now dead player
• You pay 100% of the cargo value (if any was on board) of the dead player
• Your insurance claim value is raised by 1% for the next month/30 days - increases by 1% per kill and can go over 100%
• If the now dead player was on a mission the faction(s) who had hired the pilot now drop their rep towards the killer by one level - same from the major factions too
• Factions who's missions where affected add the value of the mission to the bounty placed on the killer
• Increased attention from the police/naval forces in lawful systems
• Increased attention from NPC Pirates and bounty hunter's in all systems. Pirates in anarchy systems would be especially interested making the whole of space dangerous
• Bounties can remain the same

You want to be the bad boy, then be prepared to get spanked.

After all, this is Elite Dangerous as the PvP players are so keen to point out at every chance.

I'm not wanted and am happy to be attacked and often PvP. How is the above going to deal with people who actively want this play style?

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

What constant barrage of PvP? PvP is RARE in Open. You can go weeks without it. Stop with the misinformation.

surely that depends on if you want to do community goals and what not. how it is over at merope 5C now in open?

 

[{SAS}Stalker]

surely that depends on if you want to do community goals and what not. how it is over at merope 5C now in open?

I'm guessing its got people in there who aren't ready to be there. Its like getting into the sea without being able to swim and then moaning that you want the sea to be filled in as a fix. Just learn to swim!

 

[lenna]

I'm guessing its got people in there who aren't ready to be there. Its like getting into the sea without being able to swim and then moaning that you want the sea to be filled in as a fix. Just learn to swim!

In short , and besides the point that Mike was actually making.

 

[Flea King]

I'm not wanted and am happy to be attacked and often PvP. How is the above going to deal with people who actively want this play style?

Simple. Start a fight. Heckle other commanders you meet. Get them to kick off.

Or, if you prefer, start your own fights. Sure, there may be unfortunate consequences, at least according to some of the systems proposed but hey, that's part and parcel of being a violence ready & hungry commander.

 

[Flynth]

From my point of view, the PvP is so rare, and based on the instance system not balanced or managed well (hard to get 16+ ppl in the same system), this just get worst with this change.

All traders / weak players / underminers tempt to hide in Solo or PG (alone or PVE groups), and this kills the piracy, powerplay and end of the day the "MMO-like" feeling. sometimes I just kill weak players for fun (after ID, wait until they shoot me) or chat with them, but when I just be the DANGEROUS part of the game, why i need to get any restrictions from stations or anything when my "enemy" can go Solo to avoid any results of my bad habits, avoid blockades or undermine my group. Piracy killed by solo mode, this will results new game name: Elite Dangerous or Hide in Solo...

Please don't implement this without closing down the Solo / PG options.

 

[Oogie Boogie]

Hello Commanders!
As an example suggestion: a high combat rank player in a combat capable ship boils a low combat rank player in a trade vessel. In addition to a bounty, the murderer is unable to dock at high security systems and suffers an increased insurance premium excess for an amount of time.

Would a system like this help reconcile the two factions of the PVP and PVE, or would it not really address the issue?

Thoughts?

Honestly I don't think so. Would say 95% of bad guys would not care about these kind of "punishment". Money is mostly not an issue anymore since Robigo smuggling. Not able to dock on specific station - as well not a big deal. Here some ideas...

Protect Traders:
- Trader should buy protection by a NPC wing to travel through space.
- Police should react much faster then currently (within 10 seconds) if your crime function is "on".

Punish Bad Guys (really only for special crimes, griefing, killing several not-wanted low ranks CMDR's):
- Create NPC special forces (which are really, really strong) for special crimes as bad guys like to fight and don't care to die in the fights.
- Wanted status should be live for 7 days, even if you die (or switch ship and let the station kill you by the station)
- Install a bounty hunting modul and similar tools, which allows every player in open detect and hunt effectively the bad guys (with information about the bounty) - even if they are not in your friends list.

That this don't collide with the normal PVP fightings, players could activate a kind of "Yes, ready for PVP" status, which is visible for other players.

 

[Mr_Blastman]

surely that depends on if you want to do community goals and what not. how it is over at merope 5C now in open?

Was pretty darn empty on Sunday afternoon of griefers/killers/murderers.

 

[Huros]

Crime and Punishment - A phased, holistic approach or Season 3/4/5 "Law and order”.

Phase one

Expand the forthcoming “Engineer contacts” to Bounty hunting contacts.

BH contacts are able to offer high value contracts that may take two or more hours to “follow the clues” and find the target, who may be in a high sec system outside the jurisction of the bounty issuer. they will also provide access to re-buy bounty posts - see later.

Implement “Tracker Limpets”

These enable the PC to track in real time through the galaxy and system map where the persistent NPC is. Trackers should have number of jumps limited or time limited. - possibly structural integrity mechanic so when it equals zero they may fall off modified by quality of controller module and a bit of randomness.

Email from Contacts “for a price”/comission to help locate the mark. - works for pirates after cargo and bounty hunters after pirates.

All this equals a much more challenging bounty hunting experience.

Introduce Notoriety or “criminal rep” - (Good idea Snarfbuckle)

Police Licence - Faction and or system only. Cargo Scan can create a wanted status in a system. Percentage of bounty bonus generated on scan and awarded to Licensed CMDR who scanned it. So if Cmdr scanned and killed then larger reward.

Phase Two
Criminal ranking.

From Clean to Pirate King eight ranks just like explorer or trader. Low level ranks should not be wanted or have bounty attached to them. the Pirate rank should be faster to rank up than the elite ranks. Quicker, easier but more dangerous .

Ranking should open up pirate anarchy permit worlds all over the bubble. Closing off system stations at different levels of increasing security levels. And capitals should really be closed to high rank pirate types unless they have Privateer Warrants - see phase three and or ranking in the relevant navy

Make this a balanced and rewarding option compared to playing it straight. Open up Pirate only ships too, only available at specific ranks from pirate factions, and weapons. e.g., disabling weapons, cargo bays - shielded from scanning. (incentivise the career with smuggling missions etc)

On reducing your criminal rank. The rank should decay, and if you do “go straight” and do things like charity missions etc it should decay quicker. Yes, you might not be welcome at that pirate den anymore after being a damn goody goody for a month or two. Rank should drop away, revenge bounty? no. Introduce more serious punishment for murder and piracy. IE elite player destroys harmless sidey then a maximum tariff should be applied.

Create a crime “tariff table” for the game to reference when a crime occurs. With modifiers for location, security level, victims and perp combat rank, and previous/ criminal rank, opposing PP faction, Declared at war faction on faction(think this is coming) Victim wanted status (i.e. mitigation vs aggravation )

Police reaction. - four levels of reaction/bounty. Local, Faction, State and Galaxy

Make EVERYONE, PC and NPC obey the same rules. Chaff, ECM, Silent running - anyone?

Phase Three

Create a “post bounty” option on the re-buy screen that allows the killed PC to allocate funds to a revenge bounty. First to claim and permanent until claimed…. can’t wait for those £100M bounties. - The Pirate target should not get informed of the bounty, nor should it go on the “top bounty list” but instead the “target” should be mailed via the in game message system to the bounty hunter once he has accepted the contract. Which is more realistic too.

Work into BGS the pirate factions and their influence more evenly and more sophisticated- i.e. reduce nearby security.

Create a “Black market contact” like the Engineer and the previously mentioned Bounty Hunter contact. This should be able to offer smuggling and other nefarious missions and rewards. But must be worked on with criminal rep, and they will want a cut of your earnings if they help you avoid bounty hunters.….

Privateers and Letters of Marque. Privateers should introduced at great power level. They should allow an “imperial player” to pirate and murder int he federation(specified int he letter) or Alliance or independent systems, seize contraband and legitimate cargo without any hostilities frothier “home nation” the cargo should then be sellable on the open market back home. This would also promote PVP and with the revenge bounty some crafty cross border care full hunting, and some potential    -for-tat game play rivalry.

>triple the value of mined materials or really release the background sim to find the real value of these things. I genuinely believe the value is massaged for game play balance purposes which in a way is counter productive. I also believe that a ton of platinum should be worth >60K. Three things would happen. First we would see a large number of players actively mining and enjoying the profit. Very quickly we would see the “griefers” (our pirate class) appear and start to seize the mined goods. Then we would see a rise in bounty hunters looking to claim those revenge bounties.

This holistic approach allows a much more dynamic and open incentivised style of play. Balanced and fun. Risk and Reward. Clean or wanted. Blaze your own trail…..Burn out and fade away, or twinkle in the black for ever….

Reflections/TL;DR - rewrite the constitution of Crime and punishment in elite.

On a conflicting potentially divisive view of this; yes it may well turn players in to either Criminals or law-abiding players, but is that any different from the way it is now or atlas the way it should be? Do we not want PVP promoted in the game? competition? Risk /reward?

Also with a system such as this the Robigo mines and secret smuggling missions become more than just a quick money fix. They suddenlyhave a broader impact on your status, and rank you on a path you might not expect while you make criminal contacts too. They might not get you to pirate king without killing a few people but they will have an impact on how you are treated at other ports. Suspicion will follow you everywhere….

Bounty hunters need a ranking system too. Based on value and number of persistent marks they go after. This should open up more bounties and resources.

 

[Mr_Blastman]

In short , and besides the point that Mike was actually making.

Not . What do you want to do? Talk to God and have him change the laws of physics so you don't have to swim in water? So the water holds you up? Or better yet, you have gills?

It doesn't work like that.

If someone wants to play in the big boy pool (Open), they learn to play the Open way.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

Was pretty darn empty on Sunday afternoon of griefers/killers/murderers.

interesting... I popped in accidentally on monday. I quickly popped out again, however I am still there now. i may check out open again tonight the baby allows it and actually sleeps!.

I wonder if there is a geography or ISP bias for player grouping in ED? (just a thought)

Not . Wh
If someone wants to play in the big boy pool (Open), they learn to play the Open way.

i think the point is, stations are going into turmoil and its getting worse. suddenly a possible fix is found and we are begged to go and get supplies to help...... Is it really feasible role play wise for the people trying to help to be at the mercy of gank squads?

You think that the believable simulation of the future is yes, that is accurate, I think it isnt. Sadly neither of us can prove who is correct.

but I was actually responding to your comment that i was unlikely to be attacked in open, so I asked for clarification... it turns out i am unlikely to be attacked in open so long as i do not take part in any cooperative community play or (presumably)go near any of the popular areas, which is not the same.