Combat Loggers... how many are there!!!! What kind of punishment do they receive and when?

[Asp Explorer]

Hmmm, if it happens more than once maybe.
I know some people have really bad internet or a lively dog that wags its tail and knocks the router over but really.
If someone gets reported twice they need to be seriously looked at

Have a look here.
http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/tools/charts/router/bar/77-max-simul-conn

How many connections do you think Elite uses? How many connections do you think everything else running on a PC uses? What if someone has no idea what Internet Box they have?

 

[Kenaz]

Unless there is a punishing system for Gankers/Griefers -> combat log or play solo/group. End of discussion. This is an order.

or start a massive combat log=ban private group.
I do think the punishment for killing a player is disproportionate. yet get a slap on the wrist bounty. I feel the bounty should scale with the ship insurance cost, negatively influence major and minor faction, and prevent you from docking at affiliated stations, and ground your flying privileges for a time if you get blown up (jail time in your escape pod (Demolition Man (1993) style)

If you choose to play in Open then you choose to interact with other people, whether you like the interaction or not.
If you then choose to CL and go to Solo or Group why not just start your game there in the first place? Maybe some people like the thrill of a potential 'dangerous' interaction but in reality they don't actually want it.

I see very few people on these threads stating why they want to play in Open but don't want to play with others.
9/10 CMDR's I meet in Open and just give an 'o7' to totally ignore me, so really, why bother playing there? You don't want friendly interaction and you don't want unfriendly interaction

I know this is a testosterone filled thread, and I have a daughter, but am I the only person who sees statements like these as:
"Any girl who goes out into the open/public is asking to be "sexually violated"? If you don't want to be #####, stay at home, obviously"

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

or start a massive combat log=ban private group.
...


I know this is a testosterone filled thread, and I have a daughter, but am I the only person who see statements like these as:
"Any girl who goes out into the open/public is asking to be "sexually violated"? If you don't want to be #####, stay at home, obviously"

I don't think we should tread that mine-ridden path. But yes, deciding how with whom you want to spend in-game time is normal use of the product. The rest of this "combat-logging" thing is mostly trolling.

 

[Jackboot]

Yep I do understand that it is widely viewed that using ALT F4 as a method of exiting PVP is accepted (on the forum) as cheating
But the premise of this whole thread is to try and punish/ban/etc CMDR's that do it over and over again in Open against other pro-pvp CMDRS

My point is - It is not explicity mentioned ANYWHERE other than here on the forums where the VAST majority of players have NEVER EVER BEEN
So how can you punish/ban/whatever players for an accepted method of avoiding unwanted player to player interaction when it isnt mentioned in the rules

Disconnecting is not using "Automation software" "Software", "Hacks", "Mods" or "Any unauthorized software"

So NOBODY is EVER going to recieve a BAN, shadow or otherwise for pulling the plug and exiting the game when THEY want to!

See where I am coming from? I dont combat log because I dont put myself in that situation through using the Mobius private group - had I not been on here I probably wouldnt have a clue about Mobius and would be happily CLogging away in Open

People do use scripts however to auto logoff when there hull gets low. Its widely available. Obviously I won't talk about how to get it here. And people do use it outside of PVP, it makes shadow deliveries much easier as it removes the risk of being scanned completely and it also literally makes you invincible against all NPC's. It does not matter if you are in Mobius or Solo or Open, it works the same. If they don't punish people for doing this, then people will assume that its ok. Soon we will have people using all sorts of ways to blantenly cheat, not just auto logging, because there is no reason not to other than from an ethical standpoint.
Your argument that ignorance of the rules is a valid excuse also should not work. You cannot tell an officer that pulls you over for speeding you didn't bother to read the speed limit sign and expect to be told to go on your way. These rules against cheating are here to make the game better for all of us. The fact that it is so easy to cheat is no reason not to see it as a serious threat to the devs vision of what this game should be.

 

[Andrew Gaspurr]

I know this is a testosterone filled thread, and I have a daughter, but am I the only person who sees statements like these as:
"Any girl who goes out into the open/public is asking to be "sexually violated"? If you don't want to be #####, stay at home, obviously"

This is giving the discussion way too much impact and the comparison is definitely disproportionate.

However, those who say "If you choose to play in Open then you choose to interact with other people, whether you like the interaction or not." make up their own definition of interaction. Chosing to discontinue the game as a response to some other player's behaviour is also an interaction, just not one the shootist has expected. But this is a rather pointless exchange of semantics. But it shows you should not make up definitions just to augment your point. That's Trumping.

 

[Jackboot]

But yes, deciding how with whom you want to spend in-game time is normal use of the product. The rest of this "combat-logging" thing is mostly trolling.

Do you feel like Michael Brookes outright stating that its cheating and Sandro asking commanders to report people who are doing it to be just "trolling"?

 

[StuF]

People do use scripts however to auto logoff when there hull gets low. Its widely available. Obviously I won't talk about how to get it here. And people do use it outside of PVP, it makes shadow deliveries much easier as it removes the risk of being scanned completely and it also literally makes you invincible against all NPC's. It does not matter if you are in Mobius or Solo or Open, it works the same. If they don't punish people for doing this, then people will assume that its ok. Soon we will have people using all sorts of ways to blantenly cheat, not just auto logging, because there is no reason not to other than from an ethical standpoint.
Your argument that ignorance of the rules is a valid excuse also should not work. You cannot tell an officer that pulls you over for speeding you didn't bother to read the speed limit sign and expect to be told to go on your way. These rules against cheating are here to make the game better for all of us. The fact that it is so easy to cheat is no reason not to see it as a serious threat to the devs vision of what this game should be.

Combat logging isnt in THE RULES though - so there is nothing to be ignorant of!
Hacks - check
Software - check
Automation - check

All in the rules (TOS) - so happy days, ban away if these are detected or found

Combat logging isnt mentioned anywhere for anyone to read/understand/digest other than here?
So how can CMDR Joe Bloggs be punished in ANY way for breaking an unwritten rule?
Answer - There can be no Punitave punishment for breaking a rule that isnt written down

Your speeding example is flawed - you have be learn to drive and pass a test, with that process and testing the rules of the road are explained and understanding checked so ignorance of speed limits is eliminated
In Elite where is the test? Where are the rules - with explicit reference to Combat Logging?
Nope there arent any

 

[sewerratuk]

I know this is a testosterone filled thread, and I have a daughter, but am I the only person who sees statements like these as:
"Any girl who goes out into the open/public is asking to be "sexually violated"? If you don't want to be #####, stay at home, obviously"

Seriously? No.
Please don't associate any of my posts with crap like that. You really need a viewpoint readjustment

 

[Jackboot]

Combat logging isnt in THE RULES though - so there is nothing to be ignorant of!
Hacks - check
Software - check
Automation - check

All in the rules (TOS) - so happy days, ban away if these are detected or found

Combat logging isnt mentioned anywhere for anyone to read/understand/digest other than here?
So how can CMDR Joe Bloggs be punished in ANY way for breaking an unwritten rule?
Answer - There can be no Punitave punishment for breaking a rule that isnt written down

Your speeding example is flawed - you have be learn to drive and pass a test, with that process and testing the rules of the road are explained and understanding checked so ignorance of speed limits is eliminated
In Elite where is the test? Where are the rules - with explicit reference to Combat Logging?
Nope there arent any

We have been over this. It is against the rules to cheat. Frontier has clearly stated that it is cheating. In the examples I gave it is clearly being used as an exploit. Must the game give a pop up every time you log in explaining in detail all the ways you can cheat and asking you not to do it in order for it to be punishable to use cheats for your advantage? Isn't that asking a bit much?
What do you purpose they should do about people using scripts or exploits to be invincible in game? Ignore it?

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Do you feel like Michael Brookes outright stating that its cheating and Sandro asking commanders to report people who are doing it to be just "trolling"?

You know well what I mean, I shouldn't have to explain it: They gave their own opinions after being asked and they don't keep posting every day a new thread about it. And I disagree about their opinions.

 

[shadragon]

Can someone clarify for me how easy it is to actually determine that someone has disconnected, rather than changing modes (which FD has made clear is acceptable behaviour)?

Players experience drop-outs all the time due to ISP issues and Frontier server problems. Frontier logs everything. If a player logs off in the middle of combat once, then that's an statistical anomaly. When they have done it fifty times, that's a trend. It is easily detected long term. They know who is doing it. No doubt in my mind.

Current game mechanics cannot combat umm, combat loggers. There is no punishment in place, to the best of my knowledge. I'll bet the FDevs are stuck as to what to do.

So what should be done? Fine? Bounty? Teleport offenders to a random system in core space? Or something else?

 

[Andrew Gaspurr]

As long as FD cannot efficiently tell if Joe Chummer is "combat-logging" or has recurring ISP problems they will just do that: Ask people periodically to refrain from combat-logging and tell them that they take the matter very seriously; which I am sure they do.

 

[StuF]

We have been over this. It is against the rules to cheat. Frontier has clearly stated that it is cheating. In the examples I gave it is clearly being used as an exploit. Must the game give a pop up every time you log in explaining in detail all the ways you can cheat and asking you not to do it in order for it to be punishable to use cheats for your advantage? Isn't that asking a bit much?
What do you purpose they should do about people using scripts or exploits to be invincible in game? Ignore it?

They should ban people using scripts and cheats in the game - totally behind that as it is explicit in the Elite Dangerous TOS that to use them is against the rules
What this thread is all about is punishment for Combat Logging

From a legal standpoint if your access to the game was reduced/removed due to braking some "unwritten" rule the Elite Dangerous team could very well find themselves in court for violating its consumers rights
All they need to do is clarify:
A) What exactly is defined as "Combat Logging" -taking into account poor internet connections/instancing issues etc
B) What is the threshold for Warning/Ban/Blocking/Resetting CMDR and so on
C) PUBLISH THESE RULES - so people know they are actually there (not just on some forum on the interweb somewhere)

Then and only then will anyone be able to recieve actual punishment that will affect their in-game experience due to "Breaking the Rules"

And to be honest it doesnt matter what the DEV's/Producers/Mods whoever say on here regarding the issue
Until it is included in the terms of service their hands are tied Legally from punishing anyone for Leaving the Game when they want to aka Combat Logging!

 

[Zelos1983]

or start a massive combat log=ban private group.

How is that "punishing" people who play solo and combat log? Just curious.

I do think the punishment for killing a player is disproportionate. yet get a slap on the wrist bounty.

There is already too much punishement for killing other ships, given that it happens so frequently. All it takes is some careless NPC fly into you while docking. This clearly has to be nerfed, not worsened.

 

[Ari Ben Zayn]

All they need to do is clarify:
A) What exactly is defined as "Combat Logging" -taking into account poor internet connections/instancing issues etc

Combat logging is "ungracefully" killing Elite, via Alt-F4, Task Explorer and killing the .exe etc.

Combat logging is NOT: hitting escape, clicking "exit to main menu"

Source: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=105778

 

[Jackboot]

They should ban people using scripts and cheats in the game -
What this thread is all about is punishment for Combat Logging

According to the developers, combat logging IS using a cheat in game.
And it most certainly does matter what the devs say about it, as they are who decides what is cheating and what isn't. They define it, not us.
Also from what I gather, what you seem to be saying is using a script to automatically log out or terminate your connection when your hull reaches a certain % is cheating, but doing it manually is fine. I don't follow.

 

[StuF]

Combat logging is "ungracefully" killing Elite, via Alt-F4, Task Explorer and killing the .exe etc.

Combat logging is NOT: hitting escape, clicking "exit to main menu"

Source: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=105778

Thanks for that - where is that actually stated in the Elite Terms Of Service?
Oh thats right - there isnt a single mention anywhere ref Combat Logging

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According to the developers, combat logging IS using a cheat in game.
And it most certainly does matter what the devs say about it, as they are who decides what is cheating and what isn't. They define it, not us.
Also from what I gather, what you seem to be saying is using a script to automatically log out or terminate your connection when your hull reaches a certain % is cheating, but doing it manually is fine. I don't follow.

Dont presume I am pro-combat logging, that is very untrue. Personally I dont think it is a nice way to play
But again I would be outraged if anyone was punished for it without ED amending their terms to include it - specifically

 

[Zelos1983]

Thanks for that - where is that actually stated in the Elite Terms Of Service?
Oh thats right - there isnt a single mention anywhere ref Combat Logging

Combat logging is just ED slang for sending SIGKILL (kill -9) to the ed game process.

PvP players call it like that because, besides mitigating bugs and missing savegame, some PvP players use it in the middle of combat against other players to prevent loss of their ship. And this little minority is always the loudest in the forums.

 

[babelfisch]

We have been over this. It is against the rules to cheat. Frontier has clearly stated that it is cheating. In the examples I gave it is clearly being used as an exploit. Must the game give a pop up every time you log in explaining in detail all the ways you can cheat and asking you not to do it in order for it to be punishable to use cheats for your advantage? Isn't that asking a bit much?
What do you purpose they should do about people using scripts or exploits to be invincible in game? Ignore it?

1. Just because there is a forum post about something doesn't mean that it's against the EULA. You can't ban someone for not reading the forum.
2. There is no way Frontier could know which players have a poor connection and which players do combat log. You can not ban someone for having a bad connection.
3. There is a perfect solution for this problem which I already offered many times in this thread: Create a private group and ban all combat loggers yourself.
4. If you don't want to create a private group which would solve all your problems I'll assume that combat logging isn't a problem.
5. If you want to fight equal enemies who don't run when you attack them how about fighting the code instead of unarmed traders and sidewinders?

 

[CMDR Mini]

Thanks for that - where is that actually stated in the Elite Terms Of Service?
Oh thats right - there isnt a single mention anywhere ref Combat Logging

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Dont presume I am pro-combat logging, that is very untrue. Personally I dont think it is a nice way to play
But again I would be outraged if anyone was punished for it without ED amending their terms to include it - specifically

So you want Frontier to list every kind of cheat in their TOS ?
No.

Combat Logging is Cheating
+ Cheating is against TOS
= Combat Logging is against TOS.

I tried to make it simple so you can finally understand.