The Star Citizen Thread v 4

[Voivod]

Even EvE online with a pretty normal currency system, is still accused of P2W, let the massive flame war begin!

In all my years of playing EvE Online in numerous different alliances and gaming situations, I have never ever heard someone complain that EvE is P2W.
Unless you're talking about random people who have no idea what they're talking about and are just blabbering whatever excuse they think of.

 

[MaxLexandre]

In all my years of playing EvE Online in numerous different alliances and gaming situations, I have never ever heard someone complain that EvE is P2W.
Unless you're talking about random people who have no idea what they're talking about and are just blabbering whatever excuse they think of.

Oh i'm talking about internet drama with the intent of attack the game. EvE in there goes through the same that SC goes in here. Yeah pretty much what you said on your second sentence, everything is thrown with the intent of transmit a negative message towards a game, one might not like. But that's the internet's "abc", already got used to it. They can be also a tricky community to deal with the times i played, but that's not unique to one game MMO community, not at all.

 

[Voivod]

Oh i'm talking about internet drama with the intent of attack the game. EvE in there goes through the same that SC goes in here. Yeah pretty much what you said on your second sentence, everything is thrown with the intent of transmit a negative message towards a game, one might not like. But that's the internet's "abc", already got used to it. They can be also a tricky community to deal with the times i played, but that's not unique to one game MMO community, not at all.

Yeah but calling EvE P2W is practically just a random ignorant "attack". There's plenty of other more popular reasons people criticize it.

On the other hand calling SC P2W is very popular for obvious reasons and pretty justifiable in my opinion (yes I know you disagree with it).

Comparing the two criticisms is quite misguided.

 

[MaxLexandre]

Yeah but calling EvE P2W is practically just a random ignorant "attack". There's plenty of other more popular reasons people criticize it.

On the other hand calling SC P2W is very popular for obvious reasons and pretty justifiable in my opinion (yes I know you disagree with it).

Comparing the two criticisms is quite misguided.

They still both happen one way or the other.
But still heightening on speculation because the game is not released and the system is not at place. Mostly because most people have different opinions on what they consider P2W, i that played GW2 that is also accused of the same as you can buy premium currency that has no P2W items, but you can convert it, with no limits, to in-game currency, and that annoys the community who refuses to accept it is P2W because of it, the fact is, the game setting and balance is not affected by it, so to me, it's quite irrelevant.

On recent years, the Monetization styles that SC seems to lean for, have proven to be the most successful, also on the player community, that is ability to buy currency with cash, at X rate, and micro-transactions.
Working better than Subscriptions, and Paid Expansions.

For me, the fact you get ships on SC for money, does not make it P2W, at least, it doesn't force you, the normal player, to pay anything, even if the offer is there, i struggle to understand from the start, what is the WIN on SC? Is it meant to us all to get the best and biggest capital ship on the game and stay inside alone with it? Is that the end-game? Have we won SC?

It's due those answers i feel the game-play model of SC is not be really affected by this, on the normal player experience, because the MMO setting is not a race.
But obviously, other people have much more conservative opinions of this things.

 

[Voivod]

For me, the fact you get ships on SC for money, does not make it P2W, at least, it doesn't force you, the normal player, to pay anything, even if the offer is there,

Just out of interest, which game do you consider P2W that "forces" you to buy what it's selling?
If you want to play SC competitively you're going to have a really hard time in a aurora when someone else has a specialized ship for whatever in-game element he wants to compete in.

i struggle to understand from the start, what is the WIN on SC? Is it meant to us all to get the best and biggest capital ship on the game and stay inside alone with it? Is that the end-game? Have we won SC?

It's due those answers i feel the game-play model of SC is not be really affected by this, on the normal player experience, because the MMO setting is not a race.
But obviously, other people have much more conservative opinions of this things.

There's not a single game in existence where you can't "WIN" something.
Just because you don't see the point and are more interested in the experience of playing, doesn't mean others won't want to play competitively.

 

[MaxLexandre]

Just out of interest, which game do you consider P2W that "forces" you to buy what it's selling?
If you want to play SC competitively you're going to have a really hard time in a aurora when someone else has a specialized ship for whatever in-game element he wants to compete in.

There's not a single game in existence where you can't "WIN" something.
Just because you don't see the point and are more interested in the experience of playing, doesn't mean others won't want to play competitively.

Every MMO that has, things you are forced to pay money to, that gameplay can't achieve, when i play one and i see those "pay now booster packs premium limit time OFFAHR!" i just go nope!

The PvP setting is always a double edge sword, no matter if you pay, or not, you'll have to go into something you can handle. On this aspect, this will happen, independent of you have bought one ship, or have earned one ship.
So the win is pretty much not there, specially with the setting of a game like this, more accurately it's just paying to "skip" part of progression and get stuff faster. But competitive wise, as i said, the balance of a player having better ships, or better gear, etc... will happen independent of this. One Aurora simply can't be balanced to beat one constellation (even though it can currently!)... So as long the earning UEC setting is well balanced to let achieve things under a normal progression curve, i'm one happy me.

 

[Marak]

We all have our own definition of "Pay to win" it seems.

The one I use is 'If you can pay real life money for an in game advantage' (bigger starting ship?) then this is pay to win. And I don't care. I'm a Founder member of Elite and I have a maybe 5% discount on insurance - that is pay to win (in a small way). Not played EVE much but but you can pay cash to get better ships (and the risk in EVE seems much greater - so you risk losing all that money) so it's sorta play to win.

By my reckoning SC is a pay to win game (which is fine IMO ) but guys/gals who buy the best ships at the outset are going to miss out on an awful lot of the progression and wind up at the endgame content (if there is any) too soon.

And yeah - I know there is no WIN in these games - but if I got a bigger ship than you... then I win.

 

[Monk]

Just out of interest, which game do you consider P2W that "forces" you to buy what it's selling?
If you want to play SC competitively you're going to have a really hard time in a aurora when someone else has a specialized ship for whatever in-game element he wants to compete in.

Well, wouldn't that disparity exist anyway once the game was a few months down the line from release. When ED was released, there were veteran Gamma players who already had their Anacondas. Many of those credits earned on exploits that were later resolved. Granted that isn't P2W, but there will always be a difference between advanced players, newer ones and more casual players. Now, the fact that anyone with a fatter bank account than me can skip all the hard work of earning their way up does grind my gears, but I don't know if I can call it true P2W.

Like ED, there won't be some leaderboard (in the PU) that topping would engender some sort of special status or ability (yet). Also, if they balance it correctly, small ships should have at least a passing ability to escape the large multi-crewed ships.

We'll see....to me, it depends on how much players with late-game ships can dominate an instance. I like how it was in the Discovery Mod of Freelancer. You could bring your monster capital ship to a battle, but if your only opponents were in fighters, you'd be lucky to land even one shot. A bomber mixed into that squad and your capship was toast without support.

 

[Voivod]

The PvP setting is always a double edge sword, no matter if you pay, or not, you'll have to go into something you can handle. On this aspect, this will happen, independent of you have bought one ship, or have earned one ship.
So the win is pretty much not there,

Err I've no idea what on earth you're talking about.
I don't know how to put it simpler...

You have two players of equal skill. Both are interested in winning by making as much credits as possible. One has bought 23 different ships with real cash. The other guy has a Aurora. Who do you think will be better at winning?
Let's say they're both interesting in PvP kills. One has a Aurora, the other guy has bought an awesome fighter (whatever one is called). Who do you think has an advantage over winning now?

specially with the setting of a game like this, more accurately it's just paying to "skip" part of progression and get stuff faster. But competitive wise, as i said, the balance of a player having better ships, or better gear, etc... will happen independent of this.

So basically you're saying it's ok to buy whatever ships you want because eventually, if you play enough, you'll be able to buy them for in-game credits ?

 

[MaxLexandre]

We all have our own definition of "Pay to win" it seems.

That's pretty much it. For me what i refuse to play what is P2W for me, that is MMOs that do force you to pay for something to have it, and without paying so, the players who pay, have that advantage over you. That is directly, if you don't pay, you don't have the advantage, and you can't get it with gameplay. That yes, gets on my nerves.

You have two players of equal skill. Both are interested in winning by making as much credits as possible. One has bought 23 different ships with real cash. The other guy has a Aurora. Who do you think will be better at winning?
Let's say they're both interesting in PvP kills. One has a Aurora, the other guy has bought an awesome fighter (whatever one is called). Who do you think has an advantage over winning now?


So basically you're saying it's ok to buy whatever ships you want because eventually, if you play enough, you'll be able to buy them for in-game credits ?

The player with the better ship and skills wins. Independent of it had bought one ship, or earned one ship. It's irrelevant to you, if you are in a little Aurora and run into a PvP Situation against one Hornet, we all know who is going to win here, the end result is the same.... The same way if you earn yourself into buy one Saber, and PvP one Player that Bought one Connie or lower tier ship, non-combat, you will be on the advantage with one of the game's best fighters that you EARNED, no matter if the other player bought it's ship with cash. That's where i said the double edged sword comes in, it goes both ways here. And the ships you buy with CASH are not immortal what adds one extra layer of risk for who might want to do so, and already does so.

For me it's okay, if i can get everything in-game, with UEC earning, at my own pace, effort and dedication, no matter if they offer the alternative to me to buy UEC credits and get it ASAP. Yeah i'm okay with it.

 

[Voivod]

The player with the better ship and skills wins. Independent of it had bought one ship, or earned one ship.

Ok so we agree that one guy can gain the ship through gameplay and win and someone else can buy the ship with real cash and win.
So by your own words it's pay2win

 

[MaxLexandre]

Ok so we agree that one guy can gain the ship through gameplay and win and someone else can buy the ship with real cash and win.
So by your own words it's pay2win

You can win with your earned ship being better than a ship someone bought, the same way the ship someone bought might be better than yours and win, it's not the fact you paid or not for it, that defines who wins a PvP Fight.
On my words, it would be directly pay2win, what i would refuse to play. If the person who had the better ship, who bought it with real cash, had one advantage i could NOT have, by playing the game and not spending money on it. What is not SC's case... If it was, i wouldn't be here.

 

[Jenner]

http://i.imgur.com/RTaXjBt.png
Interesting...

Pretty cool.

 

[Voivod]

If the person who had the better ship, who bought it with real cash, had one advantage i could NOT have,

How about the advantage of being able to pay and buy the best ship for whatever situation.
He just needs to get his credit card out and presto. Best ship for whatever he wants to do in a minute.
How many months will you need to play in order to buy ALL THE SHIPS and be in the same position as someone like him?
Does that count as an advantage that you don't have?

 

[Monk]

You can win with your earned ship being better than a ship someone bought, the same way the ship someone bought might be better than yours and win, it's not the fact you paid or not for it, that defines who wins a PvP Fight.
On my words, it would be directly pay2win, what i would refuse to play. If the person who had the better ship, who bought it with real cash, had one advantage i could NOT have, by playing the game and not spending money on it. What is not SC's case... If it was, i wouldn't be here.

It just isn't that simple though. A high-end ship is more capable than an early ship.

It can carry more cargo.
It can go more places.
It can safely engage with a greater variety of ships.
It can access game-play mechanics unavailable to starters.

There is so much to gain by having an expensive ship that are long out of reach for a general player with a starter package.

 

[MaxLexandre]

How about the advantage of being able to pay and buy the best ship for whatever situation.
He just needs to get his credit card out and presto. Best ship for whatever he wants to do in a minute.
How many months will you need to play in order to buy ALL THE SHIPS and be in the same position as someone like him?
Does that count as an advantage that you don't have?

One advantage that can be countered by EARNING with gameplay the best ship for whatever situation, time is exactly what money usually buys on MMOs, that's exactly the point. Nobody knows how much time it would take, and in there, it's the speculation world, both: a) that they will sell all the ships after release, when the fact is ship sales on starter packages post-release to buy the game and b) that you would be able to buy all of those starter packages, whatever they will be, without any limitation, what only looking at how UEC currency limits are setup, doesn't lean to that really.

There is so much to gain by having an expensive ship that are long out of reach for a general player with a starter package.

The gain is pretty much, cutting time, get things faster, the advantage is never to be, being able to have one advantage normal players couldn't have without paying, gameplay-wise.
The player with the general package would be out of reach if he had to *pay* for it, and not play for it. This is the standard setting on MMOs, the advantage of time, this is exactly as well, how CR justified the UEC currency for cash, back on 2013. This isn't nothing new, if you don't buy the ship buying the game, you buy it, buying UEC in-game, even with the limits, it doesn't really blocks it at all.

 

[Voivod]

One advantage that can be countered by EARNING with gameplay the best ship for whatever situation, time is exactly what money usually buys on MMOs, that's exactly the point.

So people with real cash do have an advantage over people who don't spend cash.
So again by your words it's Pay2Win.

 

[MaxLexandre]

So people with real cash do have an advantage over people who don't spend cash.
So again by your words it's Pay2Win.

In my opinion it's not Pay2Win from the base i'm not forced to pay money for something i can get with gameplay, unlike several other MMOs.
I'm not going to see it as such, my game-play choice is Play2Win.

 

[Voivod]

In my opinion it's not Pay2Win from the base i'm not forced to pay money for something i can get with gameplay, unlike several other MMOs.
I'm not going to see it as such, my game-play choice is Play2Win.

Yeah ok Max, whatever you say

I'm going to bed. o7

 

[Marak]

You can win with your earned ship being better than a ship someone bought, the same way the ship someone bought might be better than yours and win, it's not the fact you paid or not for it, that defines who wins a PvP Fight.
On my words, it would be directly pay2win, what i would refuse to play. If the person who had the better ship, who bought it with real cash, had one advantage i could NOT have, by playing the game and not spending money on it. What is not SC's case... If it was, i wouldn't be here.

But if it takes me, with my little Aurora 4 weeks to get the the same ship that you started with, you have paid for a 4 week advantage over me. And while I've been spending time earning ingame cash for your better ship, You have had more earning potential and so have earned an even better ship. Given the same game play time, there is no catching up.

By my definition this is pay to win. I have no problem with it 'cos I have no ego in video games and I like it when people throw money at a game I want to play, but a pay to win game is a pay to win game.

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I'm going to bed. o7

G'night Voivod