Should there be an 'Open' Player Vs Environment Option on the Login Screen

[Raylion]

Well maybe but I don't really see how. Ignoring this event, Mobius is exactly a PvE mode, those wanting PvE are already there, your suggesting there's a whole bunch of PvE players who essentially want Mobius but are not in Mobius.

It is hard to gauge what would happen, but we have one PvE mode currently, we create another sure because it's "official" a large bunch of folks would go from Mobius to that, but I don't think it would be all, player dilution.

Mobius isn't exactly a PVE mode, its a group based on good will that has grown stupidly big because FD didn't recognise that an Open PVE mode/mechanic would be desirable. I am also suggesting that there are players who are not in Mobius but live in Solo that would also like a PVE mode. I can say that because I play more in Solo than in Mobius.

If there was a PVE option then I would migrate to it immediately leaving both Mobius and Solo behind. If we were taking players from the current Open into Open PVE then you may have a point about dilution, but we're taking players from Solo/Private groups into a potentially larger, official group so I don't think dilution is a strong argument in this case.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

I'm not sure how a Open PvE mode could make the game dying. If (which I highly doubt) so many would go there that open becomes a wasteland then that would mean said Open PvE mode is highly populated, aka the game is doing good and lots of people play with each other.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I'm not sure how a Open PvE mode could make the game dying. If (which I highly doubt) so many would go there that open becomes a wasteland then that would mean said Open PvE mode is highly populated, aka the game is doing good and lots of people play with each other.

I expect that some of the resistance to an Open-PvE mode is from players who prefer their targets to be unwilling.

Even if an Open-PvE mode is not introduced, Open may distil down to PvP players only, in time. It rather depends on whether Frontier get the consequences right for illegal PKing.

 

[Loetmichel]

I'm not sure how a Open PvE mode could make the game dying. If (which I highly doubt) so many would go there that open becomes a wasteland then that would mean said Open PvE mode is highly populated, aka the game is doing good and lots of people play with each other.

+ rep

This shows again why all the anti-PvE arguments are just "we will lose soft targets" from the PvP crowd. If the unlikely happens ans Open becomes unpopulated thats unfrotunate for some players. But it also means that the manjority of the Players have found a place to have fun. If that isnt to the taste of a (then) minority: sad, but ievitable.

 

[bitstorm]

I've seen those video's to prove it!

Aye any little thing gets plastered all over and argued about because <drama>.

Mate, the difference is in play style.

One prefer cooperation with all players. Us against the environment.

One prefers cooperation against all, well all those with a hollow box.

Their non-compatible.

But you can cooperate against the environment in open. Players do it all the time.

You can cooperate against the environment in Mobius, or even in your own private group if need be.

The only difference is the level of risk and I'd say in open the risk is very very low, and that diminishes into Mobius and then your private group.

They are totally compatible.

 

[DHMeyer]

I didn't read all 65 pages of this thread so far, but I do play in Mobius from time to time.
In regards to all the PVE server talk, personally, I think keeping people together instead of splitting them out into different gaming instances will make the galaxy (or at least the bubble) a more vibrant place to be.
That being said, I think the main problem with the issue of griefing (perceived or real) is that it is unsafe in the starting areas and other supposedly high security, high population areas. The penalties for murder are laughable. The deterrent: murder is penalized by a $6000 fine and a week of probation. I think people would be amenable to keeping open the way it is if something like the following were implemented:

I didn't quote the points you've made and they are good points. There is just one thing... Whilst implementing those would be beneficial for the community, it requires thinking through, coding the functionality to be put in place and testing new systems extensively. Whereas introducing an Open PVE option is much easier and quicker to put in place. And also, no matter the crime and punishment system, even if it was absolutely perfect, there will be always demand for an Open PVE mode.

There are players who enjoy active PVP, there are players who will play in Open with PVP because they enjoy the chase and challenge of it, there are players who will never leave solo or small private groups they've made with a few friends and there is also a significant number of players who enjoy open type of gameplay but without the PVP aspect of the Open mode. FD did offer something for the players who want the PVP element and the ones who want to play solo, but it didn't cater for the needs of a sizeable group of proponents of Open PVE. They simply ignored this part of the player base and all they do in regards to it is sweeping things under the carpet. Probably thinking: this is our game, we will make it whatever we want. To wake up in a few months or a year with dwindling sales and empty galaxy and wondering what the heck happened there... Then they will maybe acknowledge the fact, that however they created the game and had the decisive voice when it comes to the way it works, it can't actually function without the players.

It is not possible for FD to make everyone happy with one type of multiplayer gameplay available, no matter how many new mechanics systems they introduce in Open, it won't be good enough. The most logical solution is to simply create an Open PVE and give people choice they are asking for.

 

[Viking84]

How any rational person can simultaneously believe that the Mobius group is good, but an Open PvE mode is bad, is beyond me. If you agree that there should be an option for PvE in some form, then make it official, don't faff around with player moderated monster groups that only a fraction of the player base even know exist because you have to read about it in the forums.

I can understand those who want everyone in Open, for various reasons, but if you believe groups are OK, then Open PvE will just be another, enormous and very sociable group, most likely taking the majority of it's player base from those that currently play in Solo.

Me personally? I'm torn. I voted yes because I honestly don't trust FDev to implement a proper crime and punishment system. They have not prioritised it so far, and have not spoken about improving it to any meaningful extent. Failing this the only other option is Open PvE, although I would personally prefer one game mode only with proper punishment mechanics, and safer/more dangerous areas of the galaxy so the PvP'ers can still pray on those brave enough to venture into the Anarchy systems - I just don't think it will ever be properly implemented.

 

[bitstorm]

+ rep

This shows again why all the anti-PvE arguments are just "we will lose soft targets" from the PvP crowd. If the unlikely happens ans Open becomes unpopulated thats unfrotunate for some players. But it also means that the majority of the Players have found a place to have fun. If that isnt to the taste of a (then) minority: sad, but ievitable.

Well that's a load of old rubbish, I don't even do PvP!

I don't think it's as simple as you make out, plenty of non-PvPers don't want a PvE mode. For the reason that plenty of ED players don't want the game to be one big "safe space".

On the game not dying, the dilution of players into separate game modes means less human interaction in each group.

So for a contrived example, say 75% of players do migrate to PvE, then other 25% left in open (some Pvpers, some not PvPers but like open) just get bored that much sooner. They sod off, suddenly ED's population down 25%.

No more game modes please, I want other solutions.

There's probably an argument that says the focus should be on *encouraging* Mobius players back into open, not giving them another place to go because <someone got shot therefore now unsafe place>.

Loads of ways you could do this.

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How any rational person can simultaneously believe that the Mobius group is good, but an Open PvE mode is bad, is beyond me.

Resources, development time. The fundamental differences in how Mobius works vs how a PvE game-mode would have to work. Negative effects of having both PvE and Mobius. The issues with having Frontier manage a group vs having players managing it. Probably a bunch of other stuff.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

There's probably an argument that says the focus should be on *encouraging* Mobius players back into open, not giving them another place to go because <someone got shot therefore now unsafe place>.

No mode should be encouraged over another, the only thing that matters now is what a player want and prefers and thats how it should be.

And getting shot at never has been a problem, happens all the time even in Solo.

 

[Viking84]

So for a contrived example, say 75% of players do migrate to PvE, then other 25% left in open (some Pvpers, some not PvPers but like open) just get bored that much sooner. They sod off, suddenly ED's population down 25%.

Are there any official numbers to be had for the split between Open, Group and Solo currently? I cannot imagine that those who are currently happy with the free-for-all Open would migrate to PvE. On the other hand a LOT of players currently in Solo either because they have no interest in PvP, or because of some bad experiences would move to Open PvE for the added social interaction without the fear of mindless gankers ruining their day.

As there will never be just one mode (Open) due to the promises made during the kickstarter phase, I believe efforts should be made to gather as many players as possible in one place. Open currently isn't cutting it for (according to this poll) over 50% of players, so why not give them somewhere else to congregate? It's not like Elite needs PvP to survive, it just isn't that kind of game, and it was never meant to be.

 

[bitstorm]

They simply ignored this part of the player base and all they do in regards to it is sweeping things under the carpet. Probably thinking: this is our game, we will make it whatever we want. To wake up in a few months or a year with dwindling sales and empty galaxy and wondering what the heck happened there... Then they will maybe acknowledge the fact, that however they created the game and had the decisive voice when it comes to the way it works, it can't actually function without the players.

But we both know players often make demands for things which clearly won't benefit the game, we both see them all the time on the forum.

One example people arguing for Robigo smuggling when it was really lucrative. These people get their big ships that much sooner and get bored that much sooner.

What people demand is simply not always in the best interest of the game and retaining players.

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No mode should be encouraged over another, the only thing that matters now is what a player want and prefers and thats how it should be.

And getting shot at never has been a problem, happens all the time even in Solo.

Open is Frontier's intended game mode I think.

I would utterly love to see all players there.

Not sure what your point is on getting shot in solo? Clearly players are not doing this, if folk weren't differentiating between NPCs and players this thread would not exist.

 

[bitstorm]

Are there any official numbers to be had for the split between Open, Group and Solo currently? I cannot imagine that those who are currently happy with the free-for-all Open would migrate to PvE. On the other hand a LOT of players currently in Solo either because they have no interest in PvP, or because of some bad experiences would move to Open PvE for the added social interaction without the fear of mindless gankers ruining their day.

Well as I say that was the perception of what Mobius offered before today. So you're talking about the people coming from solo being those who thought Mobius was an unsafe place to be which I'd probably say is equally comparable to the number who were in open but never joined Mobius (lots of open players have never heard of Mobius).

As there will never be just one mode (Open) due to the promises made during the kickstarter phase, I believe efforts should be made to gather as many players as possible in one place. Open currently isn't cutting it for (according to this poll) over 50% of players, so why not give them somewhere else to congregate? It's not like Elite needs PvP to survive, it just isn't that kind of game, and it was never meant to be.

I don't agree that 50% of players think open isn't "cutting it" whatever that means. Forum polls are pretty meaningless for making decisions. The poll isn't even about that, and the polls always occur when knee-jerk drama levels are at their highest.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

Open is Frontier's intended game mode I think.

I would utterly love to see all players there.

Not sure what your point is on getting shot in solo? Clearly players are not doing this, if folk weren't differentiating between NPCs and players this thread would not exist.

All modes are intended, thats why all are there Open PvE isn't intended, in that regard you are right.

Because the shooting the player does has never been the problem (maybe for some, can't speak for everybody) its the ill intend of players.

 

[bitstorm]

All modes are intended, thats why all are there Open PvE isn't intended, in that regard you are right.

Because the shooting the player does has never been the problem (maybe for some, can't speak for everybody) its the ill intend of players.

Well that's more of an RP server than a PvE server.

Like http://edrp.space/ or similar.

By intended modes, solo wasn't intended I don't think, it was borne out of the offline mode issues.

Private yes intended, Mobius no that wasn't intended.

I just feel development time and resources should go towards bringing Mobius and solo players back into the (open) fold.

The more players in open the more we all win, less division more interaction, more interest. The future of ED I think really is in the human element, procedural generation can only go so far.

Unify players, don't make another game mode.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

OK so it sounds like you want an RP server not a PvE server?

Like http://edrp.space/

No, I'm happy with solo. But some would like to play in a Open PvE enviroment where PvP isn't possible, and I can understand why. Its pretty easy to understand why to be honest.

By intended modes, solo clearly wasn't I don't think, it was borne out of the offline mode issues.

Private yes intended, Mobius no that wasn't intended.

I just feel development time and resources should go towards bringing Mobius and solo players back into the (open) fold.

The more players in open the more we all win, less division more interaction, more interest. The future of ED I think really is in the human element, procedural generation can only go so far.

Not another game mode.

Not true solo was there from Day 1, the Idea for offline came later. Alltough you sorta right with mobius, while we are not at the player limit for Private groups yet, its bound to happen so it will reach the point one day where it becomes something that wasn't intended.

No, waisting time on trying to force people into open who have no interest in open is a bad Idea. keep in mind that while you are saying it would be the best for everybody that would only work if everybody likes and wants the same things you want which isn't how Humans work
An Open PvE mode would be at least something where its done for people who want it without trying to force people into something they don't want. But then again, while I'm pro Open PvE I can see the argument that development time shouldn't be wasted on it.

In the End its FDs call, FD gotta do what they think is best if that means they make a open PvE mode then cool, if that means they don't (which I admit looks more much likley) then thats cool too. Beccause I always said FD has to to do what they want, this holds true even when I disagree.

 

[excalibus]

okay then allow mobius to have proper administrative controls, with access for the administrators to the players 'pvp' stats that make requests to join the group, then remove the admitted cap on the maximum number of players for the group, and make the group joining an option from the login screen... Oh wait then we will have other groups complaining because they do not get the same treatment...

Sooo... we are back to asking for a Multiplayer PVE Only mode on the login screen...

I understand that you feel it will dilute the player base, I disagree, I beleive that it will actually coalesce the player base that wants to play Multiplayer PVE only, those that are playing in the myriad of private groups, those that are playing mostly in solo due to not wanting PVP but do not know about mobius etc.

Further to that, it is IMHO downright unprofessional for a gaming software company that creates an online game to cater to as broad a range of players as ED does without making readily available for all players such a mode of play. If ED was a multiplayer PVP only orientated game, then there would be no need for such a mode, but as it is not PVP only, and in fact a large part of the game is designed to be PVE only, it makes perfect sense to have a Multiplayer PVE Only mode...

ED essentially forces players who want a PVE Only experience to fragment. The forum membership is only a small percentage of the player base, so I would take from that, that only a small number of players actually know about the various private PVE groups including the biggest group Mobius.

You might like to wave the 'fragmenting the player base' banner but the truth is, the playerbase is already heavily fragmented... 1.4M Sales, say 1.2 M Players (allowing 200K for multi account owners or 15% total sales which is a very high number IMHO) how many are in open? how many do you see at CG's? how many do you see when you are in the bubble flying around known high traffic areas?

At most you will see 32, due to instancing... So by that aspect of the design, the playerbase gets even further fragmented... fragmenting the playerbase is a totally redundant arguement... it is a moot point... because by design and by the players own choices of where they play, the game is already seriously fragmented...

 

[bitstorm]

okay then allow mobius to have proper administrative controls, with access for the administrators to the players 'pvp' stats that make requests to join the group, then remove the admitted cap on the maximum number of players for the group, and make the group joining an option from the login screen... Oh wait then we will have other groups complaining because they do not get the same treatment...

Sooo... we are back to asking for a Multiplayer PVE Only mode on the login screen...

Eh? Just give the tools to all groups, why are you suggesting limit it to Mobius? Why does it need to be on the login screen, leave it as it is, it works for 20,000 CMDRs.

You might like to wave the 'fragmenting the player base' banner but the truth is, the playerbase is already heavily fragmented... 1.4M Sales, say 1.2 M Players (allowing 200K for multi account owners or 15% total sales which is a very high number IMHO) how many are in open? how many do you see at CG's? how many do you see when you are in the bubble flying around known high traffic areas?

At most you will see 32, due to instancing... So by that aspect of the design, the playerbase gets even further fragmented... fragmenting the playerbase is a totally redundant arguement... it is a moot point... because by design and by the players own choices of where they play, the game is already seriously fragmented...

Eh? Because there's a limit of 32 on an instance... If the limit was 5 it wouldn't matter if you're seeing 0. The limit has got nothing to do with it.

So what if it's already fragmented? This is why I'm advocating efforts to unify the playerbase back into open.

 

[Lianachan]

This is why I'm advocating efforts to unify the playerbase back into open.

Ain't going to happen, so forget it. Why should everybody be "unified" to the way you want to play? Many of us are assiduously disinterested in it.

 

[StuF]

Ain't going to happen, so forget it. Why should everybody be "unified" to the way you want to play? Many of us are assiduously disinterested in it.

Exactly - unified into a griefers paradise no doubt

 

[DHMeyer]

If an alternative to Mobius is offered and some players split off then Mobius has less players. Less players in your group is less human interaction.

Open isn't necessarily the one true group or anything, I'm not saying that.

Everytime you create a new area dilution occurs.

Dilution isn't an isolated argument, it's just one example of a negative impact of creating a PvE mode in the context Mobius actually doing mostly what people want anyway.

As I say I feel this issue is being made out to be much bigger than it actually is. Like I've probably more chance of finding a barnacle than being griefed by SDC.

One thing I will say I am a bit concerned that SDC go after DW now, but this only because the community here has done what they always do and turn a molehill into a mountain giving SDC the attention they want and the exact reason they did this in the first place.



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Well maybe but I don't really see how. Ignoring this event, Mobius is exactly a PvE mode, those wanting PvE are already there, your suggesting there's a whole bunch of PvE players who essentially want Mobius but are not in Mobius.

It is hard to gauge what would happen, but we have one PvE mode currently, we create another sure because it's "official" a large bunch of folks would go from Mobius to that, but I don't think it would be all, hence player dilution.

The reason why Mobius group was created was to provide players with PVE environment. It was the only thing that could be done to meet the demand for such a gameplay style. And this solution is very far from perfect because: 1. It is managed by one person, who shouldn't be asked to volunteer their time for the good of ED and FD and who is facing enormous workload instead of being able to enjoy the game and the community 2. This solution hit technical limitations that affect its efficiency 3. Apparently it still requires some attention from FD staff 4. This solution is still not a permanent functionality of the game, the day Mobius decides not to give a damn anymore, this functionality will be gone.

Your fears of the community being split in case of Open PVE mode being created are illogical. If such mode was added, players from Mobius and other groups created for PVE players will happily move to that mode thus leading to PVE players population being concentrated in one place as opposed to split throughout private PVE groups. I think that people who created and maintain open PVE groups will be happy to not have to do so anymore and just enjoy the game instead.
Private groups are certainly suitable for LAN parties or playing with a few friends only, but not for thousands of players looking for the social element in ED.