Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Step by step - makes sense.
Should there be an 'Open' Player Vs Environment Option on the Login Screen
- Thread starter excalibus
- Start date
Step by step - makes sense.
It's entirely possible that the delay is because the actions of a few players have caused them to shuffle priorities to get a PvE mode out sooner rather than later. I predicted they'd get to it in 1.5 to 2 years, as it was not a priority item... but it may be a priority now. I have no particular evidence that this is what's happening, but it would be a rather delicious outcome of the whole sordid affair.
eh. People want a lot of things. It doesn't mean they should get them. My 8 month old reaches for knives, but I don't let her grab them.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Indeed. Protecting those who cannot yet protect themselves is a necessary part of looking after someone in one's care.
Now, if only there was some way to protect players who have no interest in PvP (but quite like the social aspect of multi-player gaming)....
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I meant that more as a "you're never going to get open-pve, just better PG controls" type deal. <3
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
I know what you meant - I don't share the opinion that they will necessarily stop after implementing improved Private Group management and rulesets.
Geeez, you guys still about it?
You know what? During last CG I was killed 2 times by other RL players. 1st time I was interdicted by FDL and he blasted my Clipper within next 40 seconds. During those 40 seconds I have lost 2,2 mil credits for rebuy...
Few mins after I was interdicted by Cobra with some kind of weapon I have never seen and experienced before. Freaking powerful weapon (assuming PP one)...
I can defend myself and my Clipper pretty well, but those two guys were out of my league (yet!). So basically I have lost 5 mills of credits in around half an hour.
Should I start whinning about it, asking for some artificial distinction of various gameplay modes, since I'm having troubles fighting off players that most probably invested 10 times more time in their careers and their ships?? Should I join Mobius or any other group assembling scared pilots who are willing to hide under the rock? Or maybe...
...maybe I should smile widely and learn out of it?? Another amazing lesson in Elite Dangerous galaxy!!! That even well fitted Cobra in the hands of a great pilot can be deadly to my Clipper worth probably 3 times more than the mentioned Cobra!! Maybe I should learn to watch my backs in SC as well, checking is anyone at my tail will try to interdict me in a moment, and try to avoid that by jumping out of SC before that happens? Maybe I shoul be more carefull and more respectfull to the pilots that have much longer career than my own? Whatever their intentions. Dont care if they're bullies or not!! There is always a bigger fish in the tank. Since one is bigger than you, one can and probably will be dangerous to you!!!!
This is what pushes me further. To become Elite myself. To become Dangerous myself!! TO BECOME ELITE DANGEROUS!!!
Grow up guys!!! FD gave you more than enough already. You can have fun with or without interactions with other RL pilots. If you affraid of others, hide in Solo. Simple as it is. Stop acting like spoiled teenagers asking for candy, guys. Please. 107 pages about same thing over and over is way to much already... There will never be any additional PvE or whatever gameplay mode, trust me on that...
* I was not willing to insult anyone and any kind of available gameplay, preferred by any of the players with my post. The above are just my raw thoughts you can agree with or not. Please dont insult my point of view as well. *
Fly dangerously Commanders!!
You know what? During last CG I was killed 2 times by other RL players. 1st time I was interdicted by FDL and he blasted my Clipper within next 40 seconds. During those 40 seconds I have lost 2,2 mil credits for rebuy...
Few mins after I was interdicted by Cobra with some kind of weapon I have never seen and experienced before. Freaking powerful weapon (assuming PP one)...
I can defend myself and my Clipper pretty well, but those two guys were out of my league (yet!). So basically I have lost 5 mills of credits in around half an hour.
Should I start whinning about it, asking for some artificial distinction of various gameplay modes, since I'm having troubles fighting off players that most probably invested 10 times more time in their careers and their ships?? Should I join Mobius or any other group assembling scared pilots who are willing to hide under the rock? Or maybe...
...maybe I should smile widely and learn out of it?? Another amazing lesson in Elite Dangerous galaxy!!! That even well fitted Cobra in the hands of a great pilot can be deadly to my Clipper worth probably 3 times more than the mentioned Cobra!! Maybe I should learn to watch my backs in SC as well, checking is anyone at my tail will try to interdict me in a moment, and try to avoid that by jumping out of SC before that happens? Maybe I shoul be more carefull and more respectfull to the pilots that have much longer career than my own? Whatever their intentions. Dont care if they're bullies or not!! There is always a bigger fish in the tank. Since one is bigger than you, one can and probably will be dangerous to you!!!!
This is what pushes me further. To become Elite myself. To become Dangerous myself!! TO BECOME ELITE DANGEROUS!!!
Grow up guys!!! FD gave you more than enough already. You can have fun with or without interactions with other RL pilots. If you affraid of others, hide in Solo. Simple as it is. Stop acting like spoiled teenagers asking for candy, guys. Please. 107 pages about same thing over and over is way to much already... There will never be any additional PvE or whatever gameplay mode, trust me on that...
* I was not willing to insult anyone and any kind of available gameplay, preferred by any of the players with my post. The above are just my raw thoughts you can agree with or not. Please dont insult my point of view as well. *
Fly dangerously Commanders!!
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
"See reason" would imply that there is a correct or right way to play the game - there isn't - DBOBE himself said that.
Not wanting to engage in non-consensual PvP does not equate to not wanting to put any effort into playing the game.
Players don't need protecting, at least not by Frontier. They need Frontier to slap their hand and say, "NO!" I'd much rather see more player involvement to protect those who don't want PVP. That's at least doing something interesting and constructive. It's not exactly a big secret that Elite has PVP.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
The game has optional PvP.
What is being requested is a play mode with an unlimited population to allow like-minded players to de-fragment from Solo and Private Groups to coalesce in a game mode that suits their chosen play-style.
Frontier are unlikely to slap the hand of players who are simply following their encouragement to "play the game how you want to". They did not say "play the game how others want you to" after all.
How do you suggest players get involved in protecting those who don't want PvP? The galaxy is huge - they wouldn't get there in time....
I didn't say I have problems with Vipers or Cobras. To be honest, whilst trading, I don't really pay attention to what type of ship is shooting at me, unless I happen to be next to the station, in the Contacts panel waiting to be in the right distance to request docking. Then I sometimes see what is shooting at me (if something's shooting at me, which doesn't happen too often) and I'm absolutely not concerned. If I'm trading, the purpose of me being in space is to deliver cargo, not admiring samples of technical prowess of spaceship manufacturers
My current Type 7 is not even armed, of the "military" equipment the only thing I have on this vessel are shields, so there is really no point in me being interested what is shooting at me, I won't be shooting back.What I'm saying is that for mindless shooting players flying for example one of the Lakon freighters, a PVP oriented player doesn't exactly need a ship to match the price of Type 9 and not even the price of Type 7. You might have seen better ships outfitted for PVP, with higher rebuy cost, but as you said yourself, you play PVP with people who are interested in PVP of equals, not in hunting down easy prey. I do get the joy of PVP and I have absolutely nothing against it. If it's your thing, go for it and have fun.
As for whether PVP players wanted CQC or not... Well, you got it. You can't be absolutely sure that all PVP players didn't care for that, I'm sure some of the players do enjoy that and think it's a fantastic thing to have. Frontier gave it some thought and decided either they need that sort of thing in this game or that PVP players would like it. In any case, this adds to a total number of things that PVPers can do in Elite. Whether it's well made or could be improved, PVPers do have a mode where they can meet only players interested in PVP and do stuff together.
Whilst the only thing PVErs can do in Elite is still actually one: Solo. As the private groups have no tools to enforce PVE ruleset. Mobius now has the ability to ban players, but other groups don't even have that. I certainly don't have that in my group (not that I need that in my case).
Nothing in open is "optional" my friend. Come out to Frog space and we can touch scoops sometime.
What if I want to play Mahjong? Do I get on the forum and demand Elite have Mahjong? No, I go somewhere else and play Mahjong. This is what Elite is. You're free to play however you like, unless you want to play Mahjong. We don't have that here.
The galaxy is huge, which is why you rarely actually have to engage in PVP, which makes this entire discussion pointless in the first place. But forgetting that important fact, I'd say you could start with CGs, common trade routes, starter systems. (I know there are some groups that currently do protect new players in the starting system.) Sometimes I hang out at CGs and follow pirates around until they interdict someone. I jump in, they fight me, the trader goes free. It's ridiculous amounts of fun.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Mahjong is, as you rightly say, not a supported play-style in this game. Why bring it up?
Rarely is not infrequently enough for player who have no interest whatsoever in PvP, so not pointless at all. Every player encounter in Open differs from that which would take place in a PvE mode simply due to the fact that said player could choose to attack (and get away with it). Player protection requires player protectors in every instance that there are other players who may need protecting - that's why it doesn't work. Also, it takes time to travel to the proximity of the wake signature to be able to drop in. Fun for you, as you say. Not necessarily so much fun for the players that are not protected in time.
I bring it up because PVE, in the way that you want it, is not currently supported either. It's also possible that you'll never be able to provide an outlet for every playstyle. Somebody always loses. I just hope Elite Dangerous: WOW edition, isn't the result of that.
This tells me that Open PvE is 'needed' for convenvience. And I am all against Open PvE being established for convenience.
Just because some players get annoyed or angry by PvP doesn't mean we need a new ruleset and room for these. For me it is inconvenient to hunt down players so I want a mode where the FSD needs to charge 500% times slower so it is easier and less annoying for me to hunt wanted pirates.
See any reason the PvE supporter tell me why Open PvE is 'needed' is based, as you have already stated it, on convenience (or the lack of this) and annoyence.
This is why I claim to say some players want that mode but by all respect, noone 'needs' Open PvE to play Elite.
It has worked and still works. Really don't want to play PvP? Don't play open. Wheather it is intentional or not but PvP is one of the key features of open play at the moment.
From my point of view the reasons for Open PvE are ease of the mode, avoidence of PvP and therefore an avoidence of risk and adapting the game to certain player's playstyle.
None of these reasons justify for me the establishment of a new mode.
Oh, I might mention that it isn't really about PvE but the new establishment of a new mode at all. My main reason against Open PvE is that it is a whole new mode. If there would be a solution to support the PvE crowd in open itself I am fine but we don't 'need' a new mode for that which further splits up the player base.
That said, can you think of any mechanic that might please PvE players in open apart from immortality or any other given cheat?
As for driving analogy, last time I was going through France, we took a longer and less travelled route, especially to visit some points of interest. So your analogy could be valid if the purpose of the journey is to get from point A to point B in the shortest possible time. Which is not always the case.
Lets stick to this analogy though. If the point A in Elite is the Noobwinder and point B is Federal Corvette or Anaconda, then there are really no shortcuts or no "quick and easy" way of getting to point B, whatever mode you play in. You still need the credits, whether you play in Open or in private group or in Solo. In case of Federal Corvette (or Imperial Cutter if that's your point B), you still need to get to a certain rank with one of the factions. Playing in Open doesn't make anything more difficult. Even people who play Open writing in this thread accentuate that interaction with other players is rare in Open, hostile interaction seldom happens and when it happens it's very easy to avoid.
It stands to reason to draw a conclusion, that since Open is not dangerous and PVP can be avoided, then there is no additional challenge to be found by playing versus environment in the current Open mode. So the difference is that in Open a PVE player can find more annoyance (hardly an appealing gameplay element) and less like minded people interested in doing things similar to what you do.
It makes a perfect sense to me to stick to the modes where I can find likeminded players and suggest Frontier to create an Open PVE mode, so there can be even more interaction between the PVE players. Whether they listen to this suggestion or not, is completely up to them.
Clipper is hardly the best combat ship. Nice ship, for sure, but it has many disadvantages, especially when it comes to combat. One thing you could probably learn from this experience is that sometimes less expensive ships, but more suitable for the job at hand, are better than the more expensive ones. To a degree, can't imagine even player piloted Cobra win with a player piloted Python.
Did FD give players enough already indeed? I'm under impression they are supposed to build up this game and are planning to add new features for about a decade. That's one. Two, it's not like anyone here is twisting their arm or pointing a gun at them. It's just a poll and a suggestion.
As soon as you organise an effective police force to protect all of the systems that should be secure (so you can skip the Anarchy systems in your efforts, together with combat zones etc.), I'm sure many players currently playing in Mobius or solo will be happy to try playing in Open more often. I'd suggest starting with some protection services, like chasing and hunting down a criminal until they pay back for insurance and cargo for the ships they destroyed, and you could take it from there and slowly expand. Organise a police station with a small wing of Condas in every civilized system, then have regular patrols of some cheap ships, like Vultures, combing said system in search of criminals, then add some task force for special operations. And don't forget that in civilized space you will get some support from the local authorities as well. Yeah, player driven and organised Interpol is a great idea, I'm all for it, can even pay 10% of my ingame income in taxes to fund this, no problem at all. If that was possible.
There is just one, tiny issue (well, two tiny issues actually)... We know of slightly below 4k systems (3784). Even if we consider 100 of them to be "secure" and even if you get to the first stage of the plan (let's say 5 players protecting other players per secure system), you need 500 players to do nothing else but to work as convoy security guards in the civilized space. Since you would need them 24/7. Lets say each of them is doing 3h shift, which means you need 4k players to do just that. If you want to add that police station stage, say, 3 Anacondas per system, 300 in total at any given time gives 2.4k players needed. Regular patrols in the systems? Another 2.4k at least. So you need roughly 10k players to successfully police the inhabited space and make it more or less secure.
The most you can do is to create a small task force to chase after griefers and this will always be the case. You may be successful and get few hundred players into one association / guild. But then you are not even going to be able to chase after the criminals, because the system won't put you in the same instance, so you will be chasing shadows. And if you finally find them by extreme coincidence, they can just combat log and here your policing is done.
Online game being policed by players looks awesome. On paper. It's not really possible in any online game (although in many you can actually hunt down griefers, which I've done in the past), and completely impossible in Elite. You would need to form convoy wings with every trader ingame, which again, is impossible. Numbers are not on your side here.
What risk? Either it's rare to encounter a hostile player in current Open and if a hostile player is encountered, it's easy to avoid them and therefore there is no risk in playing in Open - therefore making an Open PVE mode no different than current Open except for giving players the choice of not getting pestered and not having their time wasted for no reason. Or the points stated by people who have encountered hostile players who tried hostile interactions repeatedly are valid and therefore they shouldn't be forced to play with those people. Simples.
As for the mechanic of suggested Open PVE, there have been several suggestions. Personally I'm perfectly fine with a quick and harsh response from authority vessels (You hunt in Conda? Have 10 more. In 5 seconds from when your attack on a player started - kind of stuff) in systems that are supposed to be secure. I'm also perfectly fine with no PVP damage in no PVP zone model as well. Never had any issues with this model being used in several multiplayer games I played (granted, they mostly had more challenging PVP and better rewards in PVP zones to keep PVPers there as well as to attract other players there - win / win type of situation). If you chose to play in Open PVE that means you accepted you're not going to shoot other players, so you shouldn't be doing that anyway - your immersion won't suffer as technically you said you are not going to press the trigger when a player is in your crosshairs, so you didn't expect to deal any PVP damage in the first place. That's not a cheat, that means you are breaking the game rule you accepted joining this mode.
For now we don't have an Open PVE mode, nor is Frontier suggesting they will create it. I'm sure if they are interested in such a thing, they will ask players for ideas, we'll have another 100 pages of them then.
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