Is it just 'grinders' who feel the game lacks depth?

[Odan Brota]

Elite appeals to me, since I can roleplay in my head as I'm doing things. I play a pompous Imperial Baron who deals in human trafficking, gliding around in my Imperial White Anaconda (with a blue hud), occasionally dipping my toes in a hazres to practice my combat tactics, all the while sucking up to ALD so I can get the rights to utilize the Imperial Hammer, the epitome of imperial over-engineering to turn a deadly weapon, into a weapon that may or may not be legal in certain systems.

I think a lot of the problems that people have with the game, is that you've really got to imagine a lot of things in your mind. My selling mass slaves only pads my bank account in-game; I've got to imagine the reality of what I'm doing. Players unable to roleplay without the game deliberately telling them what they're doing just see "A->B->A->B" trading and mindless NPC slaughter grinding, and even more grinding to get a slightly better railgun.

EDIT: I should also add, that I think Elite would do well to actually flesh out their universe. I'm able to imagine stuff, some people aren't, and there's nothing wrong with that. Frontier need to add more impact to our actions, and hopefully they'll move in that direction with future patches.

 

[Whiterose]

As such I'm often flabbergasted when I read people claim they're having so much fun just playing the game..

Prepare to be flabbergasted. I am on the Distant Worlds expedition and I am having more fun that I have had in a long time. The other night there were fourteen of us having a race around a circle of ships in our SRV's. Then a game of tag, then a game of footie with a canister of tea. Then off to explore. This is a six month expedition for me, when I get back I have other plans. The key thing is goals, and I mean short term ones, goals you can achieve without feeling your are grinding. Getting to Elite combat status is a long term goal, and should not be used as you will soon feel the grind.

 

[Nerwan]

Elite appeals to me, since I can roleplay in my head as I'm doing things. I play a pompous Imperial Baron who deals in human trafficking, gliding around in my Imperial White Anaconda (with a blue hud), occasionally dipping my toes in a hazres to practice my combat tactics, all the while sucking up to ALD so I can get the rights to utilize the Imperial Hammer, the epitome of imperial over-engineering to turn a deadly weapon, into a weapon that may or may not be legal in certain systems.

I think a lot of the problems that people have with the game, is that you've really got to imagine a lot of things in your mind. My selling mass slaves only pads my bank account in-game; I've got to imagine the reality of what I'm doing. Players unable to roleplay without the game deliberately telling them what they're doing just see "A->B->A->B" trading and mindless NPC slaughter grinding, and even more grinding to get a slightly better railgun.

EDIT: I should also add, that I think Elite would do well to actually flesh out their universe. I'm able to imagine stuff, some people aren't, and there's nothing wrong with that. Frontier need to add more impact to our actions, and hopefully they'll move in that direction with future patches.

I totally role played.. what I don't get is how you can keep doing it for such a long period of time. I mean after you've done it hundreds of times before doesn't even that story life get a bit boring as you deliver your 8000,000 slave? Or do you come up with stories about what he's doing on that particular trip.. Also a real slave trader would have genuine challenges to deal with... not an easy and predicable ride.

 

[Jukelo]

For me i think VR helps. Much like I enjoy just getting in my car and going for a drive in the country on a nice sunny day, I can get much of the same enjoyment of just flying my ship when in VR. ED in VR is bordering on a different game than ED on a monitor, you pick up on so much more detail that is just not there on a flat screen and the feeling of being there is quite compelling in and of itself..

That's a very good point, ED can be a damn immersive game when you look past some of the issues there (flat distribution of transient USS even 500k ls from the main star, islands obviously populating progressively only after you enter it...).
And that's also what has kept my interest since December 2014 despit my many critics of the game, until recently. Not VR, as I don't have it yet, but immersion in general: doing a bit of piratey space shooty in the bubble for a week or two to get my fix of that, and once that becomes stale taking my Asp for month-long exploration trips to lose myself among the stars in systems nobody's ever been to, far from all the flawed mechanics in the bubble reminding me this is just a game in a MVP state (well, that was of course before horizons, when every planet in the galaxy wasn't covered in tea yet).
And ED is definitely the game I'll be getting a VR setup for at some point, and that will certainly rekindle the love for some time. But ultimately I'd also like to enjoy the game, not just the immersive escape it can provide. No need to say, I have high hopes for 2.1 to be the first significant update to the game for me, as it seems FD want to start to tackle both gameplay and immersion with it.

 

[Jex =TE=]

But even so, it was astounding to find that I could have a real effect on the system I chose. A living, breathing galaxy, just as advertised.

And that's where the OP lost me. It's an RNG universe and tragically obvious I'm afraid. Flipping universes is about as living and breathing a universe as if all you did all day was flip burgers. OK you flipped it - now what? I don't see what the big deal is with flipping a system - to me you're just making a minor change in a game that doesn't really affect anything or have any real purpose to it. It's akin to going to a CZ and choosing a "side" to fight for.

The issue is that all these "sides" are faceless, emotionless RNG entities that offer the most minimal interaction with the game world.

 

[dynamicbob]

im one of the most player styles ( i do everything) and even i feel that the DDA forum still is nowhere being met and frontier are still giving it a low prority, if david braben wants long term success a 180 degree turn ( and the grinders will grind anyway) making a living breathing galaxy will undo their grinding and force them into varied gameplay

 

[Viajero]

*Mod hat off

But that doesn't really change what the gameplay is. It is enter a system and "honk". That is the "game", all of the other stuff is social interaction and imagination - not the game.

Well, that is where some of us will have to respectfully agree to disagree

For those of us gameplay is more than just pressing a button in game to get something done or levelled up. "Imagination" is just the usual strawman used in these cases to handwave the very real content away, and precisely where your "going to the shop tac ops" example ceases to be relevant:

I do not think you could see anything "made up in the imagination" or "roleplayed" in those two videos I just posted as examples. Those players where enjoying very real and tangible content in the game, be it having issues in canyons and trying to get back, or just making very real speed passes in a very real formation reef allowing you a very specific panoramic view of real hundreds of miles all the way trying to avoid getting really destroyed because of a poorly timed maneuver thousand of LY from Sol. Nothing in the imagination. All tangible. The fact that it is not directly tied up to ingame character "progress" or "improvement" within spreadsheets or "abilities" or Cr in game is irrelevant. The content and depth of those actions is real, not imagined or roleplayed. Those players are getting skilled at mastering the surface environment by playing that way even without realizing it. And some will also die trying.

None of that is "making things up in our minds" or "rolepalying" as you suggest. That strawman is already old. The game has very specific content and depth that other games can not offer in the same way, or that is offered in different ways. You are free to not like it though, and that is what I suspect is partly happening, nothing wrong with that. I personally much rather you owned it though, than blame the game.

Other games offer more "clikey" mechanics and content that are directly tied with character progress or "levelling" and the like. Elite also has its share of those, but it also offer a different type of content and depth that breaks from that mold I am afraid and that rely in yourself getting more skilled at it, or simply enjoying it, rather than a new module in your ship or more Cr in the bank. And all of it is "not made up in your imagination". You can indeed add to it if you want, but none of that was necessary or required in those videos I just shown.

And as for your other comment about, "social interaction" being a culprit in all this... Well, last time I checked (or at least in my personal book), enabling good social interaction was a key component of any decent game where multiplayer activity is planned to be part of its inherent depth... But I ve heard critics that ED has very poor social components and that it is really a solo game... Well, you now seem to say the opposite, so, what is it going to be?

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

The issue is that all these "sides" are faceless, emotionless RNG entities that offer the most minimal interaction with the game world.

i think this is why so many of us are hyped for 2.1......... whilst it may not seem like much, putting a name and a face to all those guys giving us missions, esp because they persist, and we can build a rep and actually see how we are treated differently (apparently.... proof in the pudding and all that) but I really think (hope) that 2.1 will start to give some personality to the elite universe.

imo it is hard to argue FD have done a simply outstanding job of creating a fantastic game arena, they have build a brilliant (imo) flight model with great ships to fly, and cracking stations to land at etc..... What ED needs now, and arguably has needed for some time, is to inject the human element into the game (by this i mean characters, not meat suits.... the REAL human element is already there, for better or for worse )

 

[Soliluna]

And that's where the OP lost me. It's an RNG universe and tragically obvious I'm afraid. Flipping universes is about as living and breathing a universe as if all you did all day was flip burgers. OK you flipped it - now what? I don't see what the big deal is with flipping a system - to me you're just making a minor change in a game that doesn't really affect anything or have any real purpose to it. It's akin to going to a CZ and choosing a "side" to fight for.

The issue is that all these "sides" are faceless, emotionless RNG entities that offer the most minimal interaction with the game world.

It's not often that I smile let alone laugh, but I laughed at that.

 

[Jex =TE=]

Well, no. The game does lack depth. If you think of a game's logic as a flow chart, you could define the game's breadth by the range of actions/choices available to the player; and the depth is the length of each decision tree, the number of branching decisions, and the impact of each decision on the player and/or his or her environment.

In ED, there are many things to do (breadth); but with no consequences, few follow-on choices. Take exploration, jump into a system, honk, point at a star/planet until you know its name. Then what? What consequences are there to that action? What new decisions has it opened up? How has it improved/disimproved the lot of the player? What has the player learned? It has improved a bit with Horizons (ability to detect which planets can be landed on, can approach and land on them, find points of interest, mine resources) so you're not just finding and tagging randomly coloured balls, but it still has a way to go.

Note - I'm not say the player needs to be some 'hero' that affects the entire galaxy, but there should be more impact from his/her actions and consequent decisions/actions arising from them.

I think we need to start understanding there are 2 universes just like there are in real life.

There is "The Universe" and "Our Universe"

We can't impact "The Universe" that much however we can impact "Our Universe" a great deal.

ED doesn't offer the chance to do either. Your just a guy stuck in a cockpit pointing at things.

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I'll admit I didn't read the wall of text but, I feel compelled to reiterate what I said two years ago:

I love the grind. The "grind" is the freedom to go and do what you want, on your own schedule, without the simple minded carrot leading you down a short path to "fun". If the game is a "grind" for anyone, change your gameplay, mix it up, use your imagination. Too many people, IMO, are too used to being lead down a path concentrated excitement, which usually ends in a week (if that) or less.

Space is not some action movie adrenaline rush (although in ED it can be) it's a lot of things but, a "grind" is not one of them.

You must be new to the forums here. Everything you just said has already been discussed at length or doesn't apply. I've not read of ONE person on these forums EVER ask to be lead down a garden path.

How many times do you need to be told - simple gameplay mechanics which lack imagination aren't fun for a lot of people or want more imaginative game play scenarios and less grind.

The issue has nothing to do with paths, it's to do with extremely boring and simple game play mechanics that are mind numbingly repetitive. You like that kind of game play so good for you but that is not was sold in the kickstarter and this isn't 1984 anymore.

 

[Mercy Killing]

Okay, so far we've all touched on just about everything there is to do in the game as either being shallow (the prosecution, so to speak) or subject to interpretation/interaction(the defense)as a means of depth with no compelling proof from either side. (At least no compelling proof for ME.)

Stalemate?

 

[Soliluna]

Well, that is where some of us will have to respectfully agree to disagree

For those of us gameplay is more than just pressing a button in game to get something done or levelled up. "Imagination" is just the usual strawman used in these cases to handwave the very real content away, and precisely where your "going to the shop tac ops" example ceases to be relevant:

I do not think you could see anything "made up in the imagination" or "roleplayed" in those two videos I just posted as examples. Those players where enjoying very real and tangible content in the game, be it having issues in canyons and trying to get back, or just making very real speed passes in a very real formation reef allowing you a very specific panoramic view of real hundreds of miles all the way trying to avoid getting really destroyed because of a poorly timed maneuver thousand of LY from Sol. Nothing in the imagination. All tangible. The fact that it is not directly tied up to ingame character "progress" or "improvement" within spreadsheets or "abilities" or Cr in game is irrelevant. The content and depth of those actions is real, not imagined or roleplayed. Those players are getting skilled at mastering the surface environment by playing that way even without realizing it. And some will also die trying.

None of that is "making things up in our minds" or "rolepalying" as you suggest. That strawman is already old. The game has very specific content and depth that other games can not offer in the same way, or that is offered in different ways.

Other games offer more "clikey" mechanics and content that are directly tied with character progress or "levelling" and the like. Elite also has its share of those, but it also offer a different type of content and depth that breaks from that mold I am afraid and that rely in yourself getting more skilled at it, or simply enjoying it, rather than a new module in your ship or more Cr in the bank. And all of it is "not made up in your imagination". You can indeed add to it if you want, but none of that was necessary or required in those videos I just shown.

It's funny, you call it a strawman - but I am simply using the argument some who agree with you have used for describing the depth in the game and how others are incapable of seeing it.

Two things regarding what you describe:

1. It's not exploration. You can do that anywhere in the game, you don't need to be exploring.
2. It's gameplay, but it's not deep. You could get any game out of its earliest alpha and find you have the ability for your character to move around and enjoy the features of terrain. It's pretty much the first thing the game designers do once everything is down on paper and the engine is rendering something - make a way of moving around a game level.

I'm not hating on the game, the gameplay is simplistic, but it's also fun.

I think the easiest way to express why I am positive that the gameplay in the game is shallow is this: the most onerous task the game has asked of me is to configure my keybindings and then learn them.

 

[ThatRubberDuck]

The only thing I wish for is for the bb boards to generate more of those kill x no of pirates for a few mill, or at least decent payout combat missions, the ones I find are for like 160k and that's probably at 1 in 10 stations I go to, if anyone knows of anywhere that has decent payout ones then let me know please

 

[xondk]

Personally I think a lot of times depth means affect the world greatly, granted I haven't read this thread fully yet, but the whole idea about depth is weird, what 'is' depth? that you can go into a abandoned space station and save a person? is it the variety of things you can do? what exactly is it? the term has always been confusing to me.

 

[Jukelo]

I think the easiest way to express why I am positive that the gameplay in the game is shallow is this: the most onerous task the game has asked of me is to configure my keybindings and then learn them.

Damn that's good, I'm stealing it.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

the most onerous task the game has asked of me is to configure my keybindings and then learn them.

lol as much as the in game UI is cracking, you are right, the menu options UI is godawful!.

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

Elite is quite average - when it comes to gameplay mechanics. The reason I still find it compelling, is because it's a space game.

 

[Nerwan]

I think the problem here, is that people simply find different things enjoyable. I mean some guys get their kicks standing by train stations ticking off the numbers of trains they've seen. They do that for days and days out of the year and even go on holiday just to see different train numbers. I don't enjoy such activities, I'm more of a thrill seeker in real life so it's not that surprising that I don't enjoy that kind of thing in game either...

 

[Jane Turner]

Is it just me who thinks you get out of the game experience what you put in? If you want to play a role, or explore game mechanics, or enjoy co-operative endeavours with like minded players, the game has the tools to allow you to do that. But at the same time, if all you want is in game achievements, the quickest and easiest ways to get them tend to make them feel less like achievement and more like make work.

No its not just you. I think that the game is as deep as its wide, its just that the light of "rank advancement" and "end game ships" only exist in the top few meters and most players don't bother with the murky depths of the BGS. It deep, dark and full of mystery.

 

[Jex =TE=]

I'm always amazed that gamers want to be lead or told what to do with "content". Why can't people see that ED is a galactic (literally) sandbox where there are no "rules" or hand holding? Want to be a pirate? Go be one. Want to be a trader? Go be one. Want to be a military officer? Go be one. Want to be an explorer? Go be one. Etc. etc.

A lot of "content" is hand holding narrative for those that lack the intellectual ability to create their own. IMO.

So you're one of those people that think looking at things is exploring. That after sitting in a loading screen, you get excited over what colour RNGesus is going to make the next set of circular jpeg's in space. All the other mechanics you described are not intellectually challenging and are far too similar to each other.
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I've had tons of fun just flying randomly... friend of mine and I said 'Let's go to Barnard's Loop' saw some of the coolest sights on that trip, laughed as he and I went to Betelgeuse and promptly belly flopped on Betelgeuse 2. Then he and I started flying to Eagle Nebula, then we redirected to Lagoon Nebula. All and all, a good month last month. He and I have had adventures totally unrelated to the 'grind' some seem to fixate on, the world's a sandbox. Think like GTA... the biggest fun's totally unrelated to progression or missions, it's the experience you make for yourself.

Right now I'm actually sitting in Zeta Doradus, and flew for a half hour to it's neighbor Benoit. Was sad the engine doesn't shift system to system.

My favorite experiences in ED are those, the moments I've said "I wanna do something crazy" and then did it.

A few friends of mine and I are planning on seeing if we can get a group of Sidewinders to Sagittarius A*.

Elite's a game where grinding for a status symbol means you miss the journey and fun that can be had with it.

View attachment 106921

Any game, the goal should be to 'have fun' how you do that should be your call... don't let some NPC on a job board dictate how you enjoy yourself.

Yeah I've seen that sun about a thousand times now and that picture about 100 times now.