Simple Fix to Combat Logging

[Kristov]

In the real world, It's the punishment after the fact that keeps us from committing a crime in the first place. If the punishment is severe enough, the reason for murder would have to be much more important. We're not resistant to knives or bullets. We're not fitted with shock collars that keep us in line. It's laws and punishment that keep society in check.

Exactly, this is why I don't kill all the stupid people I see every day, the threat of punishment for doing so, that's it, nothing more, nothing less. It's why people don't do so many things they'd rather do, because if they get caught, the possible punishment is a deterrent that keeps them from doing it.

In a video game, that threat isn't so much a factor, fines, so what, who cares? Security vessels showing up as soon as you interdict someone who's clean however, well, that's a different thing all together, because the threat of punishment is not a fine at that point, it's destruction of your ship, and THAT is something that will actually have an effect on people who want to break the law. Currently, it's a fine, and that's about it, fines, and we all know exactly how effective that is at being a deterrent.

And just like in real life, that deterrent doesn't dissuade some people from breaking the law anyway, be it a fine, jail time or even death, they still do it, so we'll still have people ingame who break the laws. Hell, we get a good crime and punishment system, I might even become a pirate again, it'd actually be a dangerous occupation and have some fun and thrills associated with it. Right now, well, I'm in more danger out exploring then I ever was pirating, and that's just all kinds of messed up.

 

[GluttonyFang]

If I understood you correct that's a misunderstanding of how instancing works.

You are the instance, not a region of space.

All the NPCs you see in supercruise are controlled by you (and when you merge with someone you see their NPCs which, AFAIK, are controlled by them)

For police to be a detterent they will have to be visible by you, controlled by you in your bubble / instance.

FWIW FD claimed that they could easily add more NPCs ... proof would be them doing it

Oh I understand how instancing works, it's just I'm using the fact that there can be multiple islands and one is not visible to another, thus we don't have to force NPCs to be shown in one island to make it consistent when it drops in on a player (For the sake of FPS/performance), we can just bring them in/create them after entry into normal space. A little lore breaking when trying to explain it, but an understandable explanation.

Edit:

It's meant to be an explanation for this:

That would impact on the number of NPCs in a Super-Cruise instance - which could, in turn, affect the numbers of other ships in the instance.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Oh I understand how instancing works, it's just I'm using the fact that there can be multiple islands and one is not visible to another, thus we don't have to force NPCs to be shown in one island to make it consistent when it drops in on a player (For the sake of FPS/performance), we can just bring them in after entry into normal space. A little lore breaking, but an understandable explanation.

True - if you interdict someone and the police show up then these police don't have to have left the station, travelled through SC space and dropped in on your wake**

They can just "appear"

(I suspect that's what happens now anyway - random magic NPCs )




**Now, if the NPCs really did this .. and as an outsider witness, follow and "have a look" .. wow - what a game !! (Bit beyond ED I suspect but one can dream)

 

[Defector]

Indeed. However, we are playing a game for fun - there are not likely to be any RL type punishments (other than, ultimately, financial) in-game - being blown up by the Police has no lasting effect in-game and there is no removal of personal liberty....

Yeah, I don't think being blown by police in-game is all that effective. I'm talking other penalties. They can be creative. Being barred from most of civilized space for severe or repeat offenders. They'd only be able to call Anarchy systems home. Maybe having rank(s) stripped from them. I've always liked the idea of murderers having to live in the shadows. The idea being that you really gotta want someone dead before you'll actually pull the trigger. It would also encourage pirates to do proper piracy instead of just blowing up the victim. Pirates that don't kill can get a lesser penalty, or it would take much longer for them to get to the higher tiers of penalties.

I think murder should be discouraged, but it shouldn't be impossible. If I decide I want to blow your ship to bits, I should totally be able to, but I should have to live with the consequences of that decision.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Yeah, I don't think being blown by police in-game is all that effective. I'm talking other penalties. They can be creative. Being barred from most of civilized space for severe or repeat offenders. They'd only be able to call Anarchy systems home. Maybe having rank(s) stripped from them. I've always liked the idea of murderers having to live in the shadows. The idea being that you really gotta want someone dead before you'll actually pull the trigger. It would also encourage pirates to do proper piracy instead of just blowing up the victim. Pirates that don't kill can get a lesser penalty, or it would take much longer for them to get to the higher tiers of penalties.

I think murder should be discouraged, but it shouldn't be impossible. If I decide I want to blow your ship to bits, I should totally be able to, but I should have to live with the consequences of that decision.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=235327

Add to the discussion today

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Yeah, I don't think being blown by police in-game is all that effective. I'm talking other penalties. They can be creative. Being barred from most of civilized space for severe or repeat offenders. They'd only be able to call Anarchy systems home. Maybe having rank(s) stripped from them. I've always liked the idea of murderers having to live in the shadows. The idea being that you really gotta want someone dead before you'll actually pull the trigger. It would also encourage pirates to do proper piracy instead of just blowing up the victim. Pirates that don't kill can get a lesser penalty, or it would take much longer for them to get to the higher tiers of penalties.

I think murder should be discouraged, but it shouldn't be impossible. If I decide I want to blow your ship to bits, I should totally be able to, but I should have to live with the consequences of that decision.

Indeed.

- Differntiate between piracy and murder
---- Give piracy a rating
-------- Increase rating by selling stolen goods
-------- Decrease when you blow up ships
---- Introduce "declaration of piracy" function including "surrender"

- Make penalty for murder harsh
---- Fines paid off by you upon death ( +10% to stop bounty farming players )
---- Blow up too many of faction X and the stations start to turn on you / deny entry
---- Revoke membership to Federation of Pilots
---- Increase response by police (more, faster, larger fleets)
---- Increase response by BHs
- Etc etc etc

The list is endless ... FDs time is not but something needs to be done which is why, next patch, they said they would revisit cirme / punishment.

We shall see.

It won't stop people from combat logging mind ... a coward will do it regardless - only monitoring / reporting and FD actually taking action might.

 

[terrycloth]

I still don't understand why combat logging is a problem that needs to be fixed, while switching modes and servers to stack missions is legitimate gameplay. They're both a natural consequence of using peer-to-peer.

If you really want to stop combat logging, remove the death penalty. Just teleport someone to a nearby station with all their cargo and data when they die. Death penalties are stupid in general and encourage overly tedious, conservative play.

 

[Defector]

Indeed.

- Differntiate between piracy and murder
---- Give piracy a rating
-------- Increase rating by selling stolen goods
-------- Decrease when you blow up ships
---- Introduce "declaration of piracy" function including "surrender"

- Make penalty for murder harsh
---- Fines paid off by you upon death ( +10% to stop bounty farming players )
---- Blow up too many of faction X and the stations start to turn on you / deny entry
---- Revoke membership to Federation of Pilots
---- Increase response by police (more, faster, larger fleets)
---- Increase response by BHs
- Etc etc etc

The list is endless ... FDs time is not but something needs to be done which is why, next patch, they said they would revisit cirme / punishment.

We shall see.

It won't stop people from combat logging mind ... a coward will do it regardless - only monitoring / reporting and FD actually taking action might.

I also think combat logging is a big problem, and it would have to be addressed along with crime and punishment. There's the thing, right? The trader is more likely to be blown up because of a weak crime and punishment system, so he combat logs.

 

[GluttonyFang]

I still don't understand why combat logging is a problem that needs to be fixed, while switching modes and servers to stack missions is legitimate gameplay.

Because the former directly affects another player whereas the later do not .-.?

 

[ShimEnki]

Similar solution:

When someone combat logs or even successfully jumps out, the game should reward the remaining player by an on screen promt that they win.

There should be a flashing icon overlayed in the middle ofnthe screen, covering more than half the area with an arbitrary progress bar under it which will fill up an arbitrary amount with an arbitrary number suffixed with XP next to it. After animating for about two seconds, this icon should merge into the right hand side screen, making the combat rank indicator flash for a moment and fade to normal again.

This should be entirely visual, no effect on the actual rank.

Super idea comrad

The logged out CMDR is deciding to use open play and god knows whatever benefits that has, rather than the other two options most games dont even think of offering and so at least the griefer has some game feedback to the action...sure why not?

 

[GluttonyFang]

Super idea comrad

The logged out CMDR is deciding to use open play and god knows whatever benefits that has, rather than the other two options most games dont even think of offering and so at least the griefer has some game feedback to the action...sure why not?

Assumption that the aggressor party is a griefer, that is funny.

Also, that solution does nothing for piracy.

 

[terrycloth]

Because the former directly affects another player whereas the later do not .-.?

It affects the other player a lot less than what you're combat-logging to avoid. So obviously the effect your actions have on other players isn't important to the people complaining about it, or else they wouldn't be PvPing in the first place.

You're allowed to ruin someone's day, but this specific method with a much milder effect is suddenly terrible? It's crazy.

 

[Vyrsai]

It affects the other player a lot less than what you're combat-logging to avoid. So obviously the effect your actions have on other players isn't important to the people complaining about it, or else they wouldn't be PvPing in the first place.

You're allowed to ruin someone's day, but this specific method with a much milder effect is suddenly terrible? It's crazy.

Intended gameplay vs. unintended exploit

Also see my sig

 

[Kristov]

It affects the other player a lot less than what you're combat-logging to avoid. So obviously the effect your actions have on other players isn't important to the people complaining about it, or else they wouldn't be PvPing in the first place.

You're allowed to ruin someone's day, but this specific method with a much milder effect is suddenly terrible? It's crazy.

No, it's not crazy, Open allows for unsolicited PvP, by playing in Open you've agreed to this, so by combat logging, you've suddenly decided that you no longer agree to it, and that's not how things tend to work in games, grabbing your ball and going home when you start losing isn't acceptable, remember?

FD's game, FD's rules, combat logging isn't acceptable, simple as that. Whether someone likes that rule or not doesn't matter, it is the rule and they agreed to follow the rules. The reasons why it's not allowed are simple, you are depriving someone else of their gameplay, gameplay YOU agreed to when you decided to play in Open, and you don't get to suddenly decide that you don't want to follow the rules when things aren't going your way.

If you look at the combat logging posts, it's usually the person who INITIATED the combat who does it when things don't go their way, I've had someone do it to me, they interdicted me, they started firing without comms or anything else, I responded in kind, they were about to get boiled up, they logged. It's not uncommon for the ganker/griefer types to do that when they realize they bit off more than they could chew, after all, they seek to cause OTHERS distress, not die themselves, that's not part of their game plan, so, they combat log when it appears they'll lose the fight.

Report the folks who do it, that's the procedure for now, probably always will be the procedure, since FD can check the logs and see what happened, I've said it before, it's a lot easier to tell when someone has done this then people realize. There will be false positives, but a repeated pattern of behaviour isn't hard to spot either, so weeding out false positives is actually rather simple. Supposedly punishment for transgressions of the rules is shadowbans, being put on special servers with only other players who've also been busted for breaking the rules. FD doesn't name and shame, so we've no idea how many people actually get busted, but having worked in the industry, I don't doubt it's happening. Also, if you check the hack forum for this game(there is one, 32bit version only last time I looked however), people there have posted that they've been busted by FD, it DOES happen, it's not a guess

 

[AJW]

No, it's not crazy, Open allows for unsolicited PvP, by playing in Open you've agreed to this, so by combat logging, you've suddenly decided that you no longer agree to it, and that's not how things tend to work in games, grabbing your ball and going home when you start losing isn't acceptable, remember?

FD's game, FD's rules, combat logging isn't acceptable, simple as that. Whether someone likes that rule or not doesn't matter, it is the rule and they agreed to follow the rules. The reasons why it's not allowed are simple, you are depriving someone else of their gameplay, gameplay YOU agreed to when you decided to play in Open, and you don't get to suddenly decide that you don't want to follow the rules when things aren't going your way.

If you look at the combat logging posts, it's usually the person who INITIATED the combat who does it when things don't go their way, I've had someone do it to me, they interdicted me, they started firing without comms or anything else, I responded in kind, they were about to get boiled up, they logged. It's not uncommon for the ganker/griefer types to do that when they realize they bit off more than they could chew, after all, they seek to cause OTHERS distress, not die themselves, that's not part of their game plan, so, they combat log when it appears they'll lose the fight.

Report the folks who do it, that's the procedure for now, probably always will be the procedure, since FD can check the logs and see what happened, I've said it before, it's a lot easier to tell when someone has done this then people realize. There will be false positives, but a repeated pattern of behaviour isn't hard to spot either, so weeding out false positives is actually rather simple. Supposedly punishment for transgressions of the rules is shadowbans, being put on special servers with only other players who've also been busted for breaking the rules. FD doesn't name and shame, so we've no idea how many people actually get busted, but having worked in the industry, I don't doubt it's happening. Also, if you check the hack forum for this game(there is one, 32bit version only last time I looked however), people there have posted that they've been busted by FD, it DOES happen, it's not a guess

Con you point out exactly where anyone 'agrees to PvP' when playing in open? It isn't in the EULA, and it isn't on the menu. There is no such rule...

 

[Vyrsai]

Con you point out exactly where anyone 'agrees to PvP' when playing in open? It isn't in the EULA, and it isn't on the menu. There is no such rule...

https://www.elitedangerous.com/en/gameplay/

Experience unpredictable encounters with players from around the world in Elite Dangerous' vast massively multiplayer space. Fly alone or with friends in a connected galaxy where every pilot you face could become a trusted ally or your deadliest enemy.

Help rebels overthrow an oppressive regime, put down a rebellion, or just hunt other Commanders. Your combat skills will keep you safe in a cutthroat galaxy.

It's also been stated many times over by the devs including D.B. himself.

 

[AJW]

https://www.elitedangerous.com/en/gameplay/

It's also been stated many times over by the devs including D.B. himself.

That is an advertisement, and not a set of rules. An advertisement a player may never have even seen. One cannot 'agree' to something one hasn't read...

 

[Vyrsai]

That is an advertisement, and not a set of rules. An advertisement a player may never have even seen. One cannot 'agree' to something one hasn't read...

That's the worst argument I have seen on these boards to date.

It's part of the game, deal with it or play in solo or a PG. It's not going to change, and combat logging will always be an exploit / cheat and will be a punishable offense.

 

[AJW]

That's the worst argument I have seen on these boards to date.

It's part of the game, deal with it or play in solo or a PG. It's not going to change, and combat logging will always be an exploit / cheat and will be a punishable offense.

It isn't an argument. It is a statement of fact. Deal with it.

 

[Vyrsai]

It isn't an argument. It is a statement of fact. Deal with it.

There doesn't need to be a "rule" stating something that just is. There's no rule that you agree to purchase fuel for your ship, and yet it's unavoidable. OMG call your lawyer they don't have it in the rules.

Like you said it's advertised to have PVP, so yes you agree to partake in it since there is and never was anything stating otherwise. You have 2 potential other modes to play in to avoid PVP, use them.

I'd also say that if the developers and the owner/creator of the game says Open is fair ground for any and all PVP = to a ruleset.