PVP/Crime Consequences required levels (Answers from PVE players please.)

With respect, a post from an SDC player and whos sole intention is to 'break this game' as seen in numerous reddit posts deserves nothing but derision. Frankly it should be consigned to the trash can. It would be pertinent to the OP to remember that public sdc/code forums can be read by others.

Furthermore the post also falls down on its assumption that people play group/solo because its 'safer'. We do not. Open is no less safe than any of the modes. We play in group for the co-operation & friendliness. Or we play in solo for the solitude.

Finally, whilst I agree there are problems with piracy that require addressing; any suggestions, discussions and strategies from someone who wishes to 'break this game' and espouses singularly fractious comments at will is beyond the pale.

I am PvE and I say to you - No Comment

I am more than happy to discuss this with any other PvP CMDR but I am afraid youve made yourself unfit to lead such a conversation by your actions.
 
I'd like to see more tools made available for bounty hunting - say, a Pilot's Federation mission on the Bulletin Board that is assigned to "random" players (i.e., more than one, but most likely not given to the target's friends). When accepted, any spotting of the target by CMDRs or NPCs result in the target's location being updated on the Galaxy Map for those who accepted the mission. Their location in any mode needs to keep this marker (location, time last seen, current mode) up to date.

No duration limit, either - but if the bounty hunter dies, they lose the mission and it's given to someone else. if the target wants to hide in a different mode, let them. When (if) they come back to Open, they'll find people waiting for them.

Why limit the mission to a single bounty hunter in the first place? More bounty hunters chasing a target, more chance of the target being "apprehended".... :)

That's why I said "random" players (i.e., more than one, but most likely not given to the target's friends). ;)
 
The need for a sensible crime and punishment system has nothing to do with open or solo and everything to do with game mechanics. It is as, or more important for law enforcement and punishment to scale more sensibly precisely for solo players.
 
It's not just about punishing the criminal, but also about rewarding the victim. If I am a trader in a Cutter with a ~12 mill re-buy carrying ~10 mill worth of goods, why risk all that in Open for nothing? Handing out slaps on the wrists of criminals isn't worth the risk, punishing them in anyway still isn't worth the risk, there needs to be incentive for us non-PvPers to actually go to open. In my personal opinion, PvPers in this game are weak. They go after targets that don't want PvP, aren't outfitted for PvP, don't stand a chance in PvP, and shoot you in the back when you run. So to avoid the thing we don't want, we run to solo/pg because there simply is zero incentive to risk what we have in Open. We would love to have an "Open" game mode where PvP isn't "forced" or "unavoidable", and where we could interact with a community and see other people that don't just want to shoot for the hell of it, the closest thing to that is Mobius, which by the way, isn't nearly as large as they say it is, in fact, I've not seen a single person there in 3 days.
 
This whole discussion seems predicated on the assumption that PVE players would like to play PVP if only it was fair. And it's true, that at the moment the punishment system is hideously skewed, and that some people might fall into that category.

But as far as I and I'm sure a lot of people are concerned that's not true. I play PvE because I'm not particularly interested fighting against players, I just don't get much pleasure from that. And I'm definitely not interested in the 'role play' of being asked to dump my cargo or shot out of the sky. I much prefer co-operative play, which is why I play in large private groups or in my own one for friends.

Now, as for things that would at least make PVP more -interesting- if I were in the rare mood for it, I agree with the various comments about
* faster, stronger police response
* more lenience in how responding to being attacked is judged (no wanted status for attacking someone who attacked you first because you didn't scan them)
* a wanted status that is harder to shrug off (but perhaps more lenient towards very minor infractions)
* fix all the weird ways that powerplay currently interacts with the crime and punishment system

I think all those things would make open more intrinsically interesting. But I'm not sure it would tempt me in. Sorry.
 
If an AI was indistinguishable from humans, this wouldn't be an issue.... In fact, if the AI was THAT good I'd bet people would be praying for a human to pirate them instead (at least a human makes mistakes)....
 
There are few players who enjoy the role of prey, and there's no effective way to increase their numbers without driving a greater contingent away from the game entirely. If it's a design goal to keep piracy viable in Open, they'll have to augment the sparse volunteer prey with more interesting, challenging and rewarding NPC targets that act more like players (like responding to CGs, for instance).
 
Personally I'm unlikely to ever play Open. Nothing to do with difficulty (I'd love Solo to be more difficult) but sometimes I just want to play alone, don't even want to play in Mobius. But maybe I could be tempted out.

I don't mind the idea of PvP in combat zones or if I'm Wanted, but not being jumped by a wing of pirates/killers if I'm trading or exploring. It simply has zero appeal to me.

However, if risk/rewards varied by location, it would allow both pirate and 'victim' an element of choice. "Badlands" in Open, where there are very high-value missions/cargo for traders/smugglers, and pirates can attack them with minimal punishment. Safer areas, where the trader is more safe, and there's much more risk for the pirate (perhaps punishments including revocation of docking rights in all but "pirate" stations). Then both sides have the option of choosing their level of PvP interaction on a risk/reward scale, to some degree.

Taking it further - perhaps traders (with no bounties on them) can purchase Pilots Federation protection for a % of their mission/trade profits; which allows them to be interdicted, but not destroyed. So there's much less risk to trading in open. If the pirate interdicts and scans one of these ships, they get a cash bounty from the Pilots Federation - protection money. So effectively it's racketeering rather than piracy in this case. The trader has already factored in the cost of the protection so interdiction costs them only time.

If the pirate goes ahead and pirates a 'protected' ship, they don't get the protection money and get a big bounty & punishment, as above.
 
The need for a sensible crime and punishment system has nothing to do with open or solo and everything to do with game mechanics. It is as, or more important for law enforcement and punishment to scale more sensibly precisely for solo players.

Indeed, there is virtually no deterrent for going on a rampage no matter the game mode. Just yesterday I took a BB mission to kill 55 civilians in a neighboring system just to see what the games AI would do about it. Short answer, not a thing. The only time I got hassled at all was when I killed a few civilians right in front of the fuzz at the Nav Beacon.
 
Oh btw.: Lately I came across some Griefers that Stream-Snipe charity streamers that played in open and tried to sneak themselves into Private Groups.

What to do about those that just want to ruin the game for everyone else?
 
3 stage ban. first warning 24 hours, second 3 days, 3rd, permanent. "Ruining" the game for other people is a real issue in the game and just one more reason why so many people play in PG/Solo. Intentionally ruining or "grieving" the game for other people should be a serious offense not taken lightly, after all, this is a business, this is how the company makes money, less money to be made when people are driven from the game.
 
I really don't much care what happens to the pirate/lawbreakers. Sure, security response should be higher in secure systems and the entire bounty system needs fixing, but none of that really matters.

What matters, is my lost time if my ship is destroyed. Mack probably got closest to that by saying that rebuy should be eliminated for victims of PvP encounters. (but not wanted ones) Admittedly there's probably abusable elements of that, which would need addressing. There could potentially also be an option to keep the rebuy, for PvP purists wanting more of an element of danger within PvP battle. But for people simply acting as "prey", you can't reasonably expect them to act as prey and accept that each time they get destroyed by an overzealous pirate or just by an idiot, it'll cost them X Million credits. Noone's going to be happy with that concept.

I'll also pre-empt the response of "there's no point being a pirate if the victim doesn't actually lose something" by saying that, if you actually want people to lose out based on your actions, then there's something broken there. I'd be happy to roleplay a victim, hand over some cargo, even attempt a ridiculously one-sided "trader v raildelance" fight IF that fight doesn't cost me 3 hours of my time to make up afterwards. But actually losing out millions of credits which = hours of my (real) life, nah, forget that.
 
3 stage ban. first warning 24 hours, second 3 days, 3rd, permanent. "Ruining" the game for other people is a real issue in the game and just one more reason why so many people play in PG/Solo. Intentionally ruining or "grieving" the game for other people should be a serious offense not taken lightly, after all, this is a business, this is how the company makes money, less money to be made when people are driven from the game.

While the idea of banning the real griefers out there sounds good, I wouldn't like it if I got wrongly accused and banned.
However, being banned from Open or private mode sounds fine!

Saying that, it's very hard for the victim to distinguish between being randomly murdered for no reason, and being murdered for a role play reason.
 
Yep. There's some sensible pirates in open. Usually they let you go if you drop some cargo. You can negotiate, fight, try to run, but it makes some sense. And they may not even have an all-PvP optimised build, because a pirate does need a few things that have no combat value on his ship (cargo space, perhaps hatch breaker limpets too).

Then there are those who just open fire with all they have the moment you drop out of supercruise, and don't stop shooting until you blow up, without ever bothering to scan or ask for cargo (and if they only want random murder, they probably don't even have a cargo scanner, but replaced that with an extra heat sink launcher). Ingame reasonable risk and reward just doesn't enter the picture here, there's no profit tradeoff because they won't get any cargo or bounty from blowing up a clean player, they're just in the game because they like shooting at humans.

And sure, the NPCs sometimes are equally braindead, interdicting me for my precious cargo when my hold is empty. But the threat they pose is nowhere near that from a psycho CMDR who has configured his ship for top PvP performance without any consideration given to profitability.
 
I really don't much care what happens to the pirate/lawbreakers. Sure, security response should be higher in secure systems and the entire bounty system needs fixing, but none of that really matters.

What matters, is my lost time if my ship is destroyed. Mack probably got closest to that by saying that rebuy should be eliminated for victims of PvP encounters. (but not wanted ones) Admittedly there's probably abusable elements of that, which would need addressing. There could potentially also be an option to keep the rebuy, for PvP purists wanting more of an element of danger within PvP battle. But for people simply acting as "prey", you can't reasonably expect them to act as prey and accept that each time they get destroyed by an overzealous pirate or just by an idiot, it'll cost them X Million credits. Noone's going to be happy with that concept.

I'll also pre-empt the response of "there's no point being a pirate if the victim doesn't actually lose something" by saying that, if you actually want people to lose out based on your actions, then there's something broken there. I'd be happy to roleplay a victim, hand over some cargo, even attempt a ridiculously one-sided "trader v raildelance" fight IF that fight doesn't cost me 3 hours of my time to make up afterwards. But actually losing out millions of credits which = hours of my (real) life, nah, forget that.

I agree, there is currently no reward, only risk. As I have said before, us PvEer's, if PvP is to remain 'non-optional', have zero incentive to go into open and risk our ships and or cargo. Why risk ~12 mill re-buy and ~10 mill cargo for nothing? The only people being rewarded are the pirates, they may get the cargo, if not, they get the satisfaction of blowing up the defiant trader, all the while, the traders gets the re-buy screen and loses all cargo.
 
Lets start with the disclaimer that I don't exactly consider myself a "PvE player" - Typically, I do not initiate PvP but when I'm flying in open or a group where it isn't against the rules under the current circumstances, I've no problem with PvP per se. I do not believe the simple act of blowing up another players ship should attract harsher consequences than popping an NPC under similar circumstances. Pirates, PvP bounty hunters, PvP power partisans are not, IMHO, the reason for the apparent increasing trend of "PvE players" avoiding open mode.

Obviously I'm taking aim here are the folks who regard a hollow blip on the scanner as a target without a valid in-game reason for doing so. They aren't wanted in any jurisdiction, they aren't aligned to an opposing power, who cares what cargo they are carrying - the intent is to destroy them not pirate them simply because they are another player.

The bounty for murder is ridiculously low. I've no objection to it starting where it currently is but I think a players history should be a factor. Track how many murder bounties and legacy fines for that crime thy have outstanding at any given time, irrespective of jurisdiction. If you pop a ship illegally and it's your "first offense" sure, hit 'em with 6000. For as long as that bounty or any legacy fine it devolves into is on the books, anywhere in the galaxy, the bounty they get for murder is 12000 and lasts twice as long. A third and it doubles again to 24000, 4x duration and so on - right up to the max bounty cap, whatever that is and if there isn't a cap on bounty duration set one, but make it harsh - at least a couple of months. The only way to stop that progression is to wait out all current murder bounties and then go and pay off all those legacy fines. Leave one legacy fine for murder outstanding - even though the bounty has expired and you're technically "clean" - and you'll still get hit with a 12000cr, double duration bounty for your next murder, not 6000.

An otherwise law-abiding pilot who pops a crook before the scan completes or who is a little careless with their fire in a furball and destroys a clean ship will have no problem - they'll do what they do now, clear out of there until the bounty expires then go back and pay off the legacy fine. The guy hanging around popular systems frying every hollow blip just because they are players, not so much. The financial penalty they face will escalate and if they are one of the folks serially sidey-zapping at Eravate it will escalate VERY quickly.

Now, of course this will be open to the "get a huge bounty and then have a friend pop you in a sidey" credit exploit, but this is where the other mechanics people have suggested come into play. Roberts suggestions are good ones and will work, I think. However, I would extend the prohibitions on docking to when the bounty would expire whether it is claimed or not. With the exponentially increasing bounty duration I mentioned above, this would seriously inconvenience somebody trying to exploit the bounty system for credits, particularly with Roberts suggestion about the docking prohibition extending to major factions for serial criminals. Farm the escalating bounties and be banned from docking anywhere in the federation for a matter of months, even when your bounty gets claimed by your buddy? Try it again and now you can't dock in the Empire either? The salt will be delicious.
 
Good post, and I'll do my best to give as good a response.

My background: Beta player that played exclusively in open till sometime around the time of the xbox release, now play in mobius.
My definition: My views on piracy have evolved - at one stage I was simply against it... now I separate it from "ganking" like this: Pirates are about "loot" and gankers are about "kills", usually easy thrill kills. Sure pirates may need to kill the occasional victim but in general it'd be a bad idea for them as it "bites the hand that feeds them", so a "real pirate" attempts to get the booty and attempts to avoid the kill.

· Whatever FD implement will still allow you to get destroyed by another player. (Bar a PVE mode which is unlikely, this is always going to happen)

Yeah, it's never guaranteed, but for a pirate it should be a last resort for self defence, not a goal within itself nor something desirable. It's all about the loot remember, not collecting bounties.

· Saying that any PVP player who kills another player should be pushed back into a sidewinder is just unrealistic.

Agreed

· Credits flow like water in this game if you know what you are doing and any changes to this will effect ALL players.

Yup

· Having instant endless spawning wings of Defence Cutters, Corvettes and FDL, is just immersion breaking.

Having ships that magically slow down when you turn off their engines is also immersion breaking. Sorry, but that stopped being a good argument when they made spaceships fly like spitfires and justified it for "playability".

· Currently there is no real reason to go into Anarchy Space, so saying that is only where PVP should happen just won’t.

Also agreed, and this needs to be part of the solution

So.. right now we have a system where you can go anywhere in space and do anything to anyone and it just doesn't matter... not one little bit. As you rightly pointed out there's no reason to travel to an anarchy, so there's no reason for pirates to be there either. Similarly there's no reason for pirates to NOT go to civilised areas of space, coz there's no effective policing there. None of it makes any SENSE, there's no logic to it, it's just a big pretty galaxy with no-one really in it, even in the occupied bits.

There's two parts to my suggestion which can broadly be described as building a case for business, and building a case for crime.

Firstly the business case. Business accepts risks, but it needs to know that the vast majority of the time the business will be profitable and successful. To support this I'd like to see several security levels at a star system level, applied in a logical, meaningful way according to the level of civilisation in a system. For instance a federation system with a high population and a bunch of high tech stations should have a high level of security. Similarly a system with a prison settlement should also have high security. A backwater mining platform that belongs to an independent system should have a very a low level of security, and an anarchy should have none, other that station security and bounty hunters. This would mean that traders on the "high street" in civilised areas could be very confident in making their deliveries as planned without molestation, but would leave them more fearful of going into the "dark alleys". It would give them more to think about when planning their routes than just "where's the biggest profit". Police response in high security areas to crime and to those incursions of those with bounties would be swift, brutal, and scaled to the threat level, but as the security level dropped so would the level and appropriateness of police response. Bounties would be major faction wide, so that if you had a federal bounty you would have it in ALL federal systems, not just the one you're in. Players who commit murder (in an non-anarchy system) would receive a higher level of bounty which would attract more police/bounty hunter response within that major faction and would be refused docking at that major faction's stations. Nav beacons in the highest security systems (but not compromised ones) would KWS scan ships as they jump in and alert the authorities to "be on the lookout", effectively raising the chance of random encounters with law enforcement officers. The idea is to make these systems hot and uncomfortable but not impossible for outlaws, and VERY uncomfortable for murderers. There also needs to be something in place to prevent people shedding a bounty with a sacrificial sidewinder - perhaps Sandro's idea to tie a fine (not bounty so it can't be collected by a friend) value of the value of the ship they committed the crime in to the person, so that a sacrificial sidewinder death would still cost them as much as losing their big ship, but their friend wouldn't benefit. Bounties need to MEAN something.

Now the case for crime. If we're going to chase all the pirates to the "dark alleys", they need victims which means giving them reasons to go there. To this end I'd be doing a few things
- I'd be putting most of the rares into these systems, and increasing their value somewhat.
- I'd follow the laws of supply and demand, and increase the profit margins of goods traded in dangerous systems (and consequently decreasing their value in safe systems).
- I'd be placing hazardous resources in these areas. For example dangerous but valuable stellar radiation, old mine fields that could be harvested, radioactive mine-able ores, alien artefacts, and I'm sure there's many more. This would not only give miners a reason to go there, but would also satisfy the logical question of "if there's such a valuable commodity there why is it an uncivilised anarchy" with the answer "because it's a dangerous and uninhabitable area". It would also (along with appropriate NPC pirate responses) make these areas dangerous in solo and group modes, without having to rely on players to balance it. (They might want to up the AI danger level in solo/group modes, whatever.)
- I'm sure there'd be a lot of other ideas that could be suggested to get the non-piratey types interested in a "walk on the wild side" too.
- Piracy NEEDS better tools for non-lethal piracy. I'm no game dev but I'd suggest non-weapon ways of affecting victim modules, some sort of electronic net that could be strung between 2-3 wing'd players, improved hatch breakers, and so on. Remember this is about supporting piracy while discouraging thrill kills.

An important feature would be that the areas with these valuable resources & high value stations would be very limited in number. This would
- allow those traders who want the safe life to trade in the "well lit" systems with minimal (but NEVER zero) chance of attack, and the knowledge that if such an attack should occur the attacker would face meaningful consequences
- allow those who seek higher profits, rare items, etc a certain number of places where they knew they could be found, at the acceptable of a suitably increased risk
- allow those of negotiable morals actual "hunting grounds" to look for "fat traders" who - having accepted the risk - were less likely to combat log or whine on the forums about being robbed.
- allow "real" pirates to operate with significantly less consequences than "psychos", as would be the case in the real world (a mugger will receive a lot less police attention than a serial killer).

An expansion on this would be to allow your "Pilot's Federation" reputation to go into negative figures, and to create an "Interstellar Cosa Nostra" underworld organisation (Mafia, maybe mafia cross triad, maybe several different competing crime syndicates). This would act as the opposing faction for the Pilot's Fed, and could support it's members with Mafia only missions and specialised equipment (improved hatch breakers, etc). To join you'd need to reduce your rep to zero then into negatives, find a contact, gain their trust etc. It would have a system of "Code" or "Omerta" (silence) and leaving would result in a string of assassins hunting you down to prevent you from breaking that Code.
 
Now hopefully this will not get merged back into another thread.
I am not interested in your feelings or hurt pride, whether it’s right, wrong or working as intended.

What I am interested in is the **level** of consequences that would need to be seen to get players out of the safer private/solo modes and into what will be inherently the more dangerous Open.

If someone can destroy me it's not PvE. It's still PvP.

If my goal was to avoid being killed by another player, I would not play in Open.

There are some that would venture forth..but those wanting to avoid the above...there is no reason to come out.
 
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If someone can destroy me it's not PvE. It's still PvP.

If my goal was to avoid being killed by another player, I would not play in Open.

There are some that would venture forth..but those wanting to avoid the above...there is no reason to come out.

And that's the thing. It doesn't matter what you put in place, you're never going to get everyone. Some people specifically WANT the PvE experience, others are ONLY after solo play... neither of these will ever be interested in open mode as it stands today. There ARE however some (such as myself) that would love to come back to open, if only it "made sense".

If you put sensible chances into place in open, there'd actually be no reason to fight against a PvE Open mode, coz those would be people you'd never get into "Classic Open Mode" anyway.
 
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