(info) First bonus for playing in OPEN under consideration for PP

[Tanith Low]

I do not get the anger here at all. They are not talking about a personal benefit. You the player will not get anything more from playing in open as opposed to playing in solo. What they are saying is that the power will benefit from it's supporters playing in open.

If you are interested in your chosen power and how it does you are encouraged to play in open. If you are one of the merit grinders who are only after the rewards (and for powers with a large player base these are a serious issue) you are not affected at all.

 

[Comrade Error]

Hello Commanders!

Gosh, this thread built up steam fast.

I'd just like to make very clear a couple of points.

The concept of an Open Play benefit for Powerplay is purely for Powerplay, not any other aspect of play.

In addition, the benefit is *not* a personal benefit - personal rewards, such as merits, obtained through Powerplay activities would remain identical between Open Play, Private Groups and Solo Play.

Finally, this concept is nothing more than a discussion point right now. There are no guarantees that we will move forward with it, or when we would implement it if we do decide it's a good idea.

Not liking what I'm reading. [sulk]

 

[VR Murgle]

I do not get the anger here at all. They are not talking about a personal benefit. You the player will not get anything more from playing in open as opposed to playing in solo. What they are saying is that the power will benefit from it's supporters playing in open.

If you are interested in your chosen power and how it does you are encouraged to play in open. If you are one of the merit grinders who are only after the rewards (and for powers with a large player base these are a serious issue) you are not affected at all.

Lemme see here, I will be doing something very boring to make a very dull bar go up by a certain amount. Now someone else will do the same as me but his/her actions make the bar go up more. I would therefore have to work harder for the same result. Yep looks personal to me...

 

[Jukelo]

I would therefore have to work harder for the same result. Yep looks personal to me...

You know very well this is absolutely not true. Open players currently have to work harder than solo players for the same result. Sandro said it and it's been explained to you. Open powerplayers have a handicap that you don't have, so you wont have to work harder: you'll have to work the same amount as them to get the same effect (if balance is reached and the bonus applied in open closes the gap exactly of course).
Your only viable angle of attack here is that this handicap is self-inflicted (after all open vs solo is a choice, if just barely considering deciding between the two touches at the heart of what most players find fun and no player should have to choose between what they find fun and what is most efficient), but you just can't claim you'd have to work harder.

 

[Robert Maynard]

You know very well this is absolutely not true. Open players currently have to work harder than solo players for the same result. Sandro said it and it's been explained to you. Open powerplayers have a handicap that you don't have, so you wont have to work harder: you'll have to work the same amount as them to get the same effect (if balance is reached and the bonus applied in open closes the gap exactly of course).
Your only viable angle of attack here is that this handicap is self-inflicted (after all open vs solo is a choice, if just barely considering deciding between the two touches at the heart of what most players find fun and no player should have to choose between what they find fun and what is most efficient), but you just can't claim you'd have to work harder.

Are players in Open really only 50% as efficient in banking merits, as Sandro's two-for-one offer seems to suggest, compared to those in Solo and Private Groups?

If "no player should have to choose between what they find fun and what is most efficient" - great care will need to be taken that Open Powerplay (with the Open Multipler Bonus) does not become more efficient than the other two modes - otherwise those who don't find PvP "fun" would find themselves in exactly the same position that players who prefer Open seem to find themselves in just now.

 

[Weps]

I have no problem with Sandro's concept. The reasons have probably been mentioned already in the 58 pages of this thread.

 

[VR Murgle]

You know very well this is absolutely not true. Open players currently have to work harder than solo players for the same result. Sandro said it and it's been explained to you. Open powerplayers have a handicap that you don't have, so you wont have to work harder: you'll have to work the same amount as them to get the same effect (if balance is reached and the bonus applied in open closes the gap exactly of course).
Your only viable angle of attack here is that this handicap is self-inflicted (after all open vs solo is a choice, if just barely considering deciding between the two touches at the heart of what most players find fun and no player should have to choose between what they find fun and what is most efficient), but you just can't claim you'd have to work harder.

You are, to some degree, right of course however this is as much about perception as is is about reason and yes players in Open choose to make themselves available for PvP presumably because they think it's fun. However there will be plenty of people who will see this as a form of punishment for not wanting to expose themselves to PvP. They will feel they are being treated as third rate citizen and they won't like it and when people don't like something they may just do something melodramatic like back SC or preorder "No man's sky".

Also, as you pointed out, there's the fact that on the one hand the PvP in Open is presented as a burden while in other threads it is defended vigerously as an intergral part of the game that adds a lot of enjoyable gameplay. So maybe people need to make up their minds about wether or not they play in Open because they enjoy PvP or if they're there despite it and if it is part of the fun then maybe a bonus isn't all that appropriate.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

… I would therefore have to work harder for the same result. …

You know very well this is absolutely not true. Open players currently have to work harder than solo players for the same result. …

It depends on what is considered the work. Getting merits in PP involves doing something that requires no direct interaction with other players. Doing these things is absolutely the same in every mode.
The difference results from other players wanting to prevent players from doing PP stuff by directly fighting them instead of doing the counter activity that again involves no direct player interaction.

The "work" can be just the basic mechanic needed to get merits (like Murgle looked at it) or the whole activity and everything that happens within the a certain time frame (like you did).

Players in all modes do the exact same thing to get merits. Players in Open risk getting direct player interaction (combat) that is a distraction form doing PP effectively.

Giving players in Open Mode a bonus for their PP actions is giving them a reward for playing in Open Mode and not a compensation for the reduction of their PP effectiveness as a result of PvP combat.

It could be argued that a player in Open Mode would have to use a different ship load out to be prepared for those PvP combat encounters and this alone is reducing the effectiveness and that therefore a reward/bonus/compensation is required.
I think a better way to make the modes equal in this aspect would be to remove the need of having a dedicated PvP combat ship load out - a better balance between ships and different uses of ships.

Other than that the only difference is the possibility PvP combat. It would be better (in my opinion) to compensate/reward players for exactly that and only if it happens. That's the difference, that's the direct reason for the reduced PP effectiveness of player in Open Mode.

A player in Open Mode that never gets attacked by an other player would do the same thing as a player in Solo Mode, but would be more effective. That's unfair and unbalanced (in my opinion).

If a player in Open Mode, who gets attacked by an other player, gets a reward/compensation because of this, then that player gets a reward/compensation for the reason why there is an imbalance/unfairness/less effectiveness. That's fair and balanced (in my opinion).

 

[ever]

FINALLY!!!! A Welcome change, someone has finally realized how unbalanced Power Play is because of SOLO. Making OPEN bring Your Power, not Yourself more benefits, means a long awaited balance to Power Play. Because in Solo/PG you play Power Play at an advantage. This will also mean the possibility of player generated missions of blockade, escort, hunt, defense, etc. BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BRING BALANCE TO THE FORCE!

 

[VR Murgle]

It depends on what is considered the work. Getting merits in PP involves doing something that requires no direct interaction with other players. Doing these things is absolutely the same in every mode.
The difference results from other players wanting to prevent players from doing PP stuff by directly fighting them instead of doing the counter activity that again involves no direct player interaction.

The "work" can be just the basic mechanic needed to get merits (like Murgle looked at it) or the whole activity and everything that happens within the a certain time frame (like you did).

Players in all modes do the exact same thing to get merits. Players in Open risk getting direct player interaction (combat) that is a distraction form doing PP effectively.

Giving players in Open Mode a bonus for their PP actions is giving them a reward for playing in Open Mode and not a compensation for the reduction of their PP effectiveness as a result of PvP combat.

It could be argued that a player in Open Mode would have to use a different ship load out to be prepared for those PvP combat encounters and this alone is reducing the effectiveness and that therefore a reward/bonus/compensation is required.
I think a better way to make the modes equal in this aspect would be to remove the need of having a dedicated PvP combat ship load out - a better balance between ships and different uses of ships.

Other than that the only difference is the possibility PvP combat. It would be better (in my opinion) to compensate/reward players for exactly that and only if it happens. That's the difference, that's the direct reason for the reduced PP effectiveness of player in Open Mode.

A player in Open Mode that never gets attacked by an other player would do the same thing as a player in Solo Mode, but would be more effective. That's unfair and unbalanced (in my opinion).

If a player in Open Mode, who gets attacked by an other player, gets a reward/compensation because of this, then that player gets a reward/compensation for the reason why there is an imbalance/unfairness/less effectiveness. That's fair and balanced (in my opinion).

Getting merits for killing a commander of an opposing faction rather than a bonus, I like that idea a lot more.

 

[Ozram]

FINALLY!!!! A Welcome change, someone has finally realized how unbalanced Power Play is because of SOLO. Making OPEN bring Your Power, not Yourself more benefits, means a long awaited balance to Power Play. Because in Solo/PG you play Power Play at an advantage. This will also mean the possibility of player generated missions of blockade, escort, hunt, defense, etc. BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BRING BALANCE TO THE FORCE!

Also, power play IS in essence, a PVP aspect of the game. Creating a communal incentive to play it in open only makes sense. It really is a matter of achieving that balance though, for those who genuinely wish to stay in Solo or PG (as opposed to those who hide in the alternate modes in order to specifically gain the advantage of running unopposed). I don't (and I imagine this is also true of most people posting here) have the numbers to play with and come to a conclusion on what would be fair, but there is no question that partaking in power play from any mode other than open affords a direct advantage.

 

[VR Murgle]

Also, power play IS in essence, a PVP aspect of the game. Creating a communal incentive to play it in open only makes sense. It really is a matter of achieving that balance though, for those who genuinely wish to stay in Solo or PG (as opposed to those who hide in the alternate modes in order to specifically gain the advantage of running unopposed). I don't (and I imagine this is also true of most people posting here) have the numbers to play with and come to a conclusion on what would be fair, but there is no question that partaking in power play from any mode other than open affords a direct advantage.

Power Play might be a reason for PvP it is not however PvP. PP use PvE mechanics to accomplish a goal and the fact that players can be on opposite sides does not make it PvP as the actions required do not necessitate player interaction they merely encourage it.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

What is the incentive for Open? Player interaction.
How would one promote Open? Promote player interaction.
How does this proposal intent to promote Open? Increase faction revenue.

I don't play PP. I will never play PP. So I at least have no personal stake in this matter. But still I can see the flaw in enticing those who would rather not play Open into Open.

Would it not make more sense to create missions which require co-op to be completed? These missions require one CMDR to carry some sort of haul, while another CMDR also has to be signed into the mission as escort (or something along those lines). These missions could have big PP rewards and would by default have to be played in open. As a bonus, player interaction is incentived, but in the form of PwP instead of PvP.

Otherwise you get CMDRs who would rather play in Private/Solo go into Open against their preference, but lured in by the bonus which will likely result in disgruntled CMDRs who feel forced into some sort of mode.

 

[Roland2]

What is the incentive for Open? Player interaction.
How would one promote Open? Promote player interaction.
How does this proposal intent to promote Open? Increase faction revenue.

I don't play PP. I will never play PP. So I at least have no personal stake in this matter. But still I can see the flaw in enticing those who would rather not play Open into Open.

Would it not make more sense to create missions which require co-op to be completed? These missions require one CMDR to carry some sort of haul, while another CMDR also has to be signed into the mission as escort (or something along those lines). These missions could have big PP rewards and would by default have to be played in open. As a bonus, player interaction is incentived, but in the form of PwP instead of PvP.

Otherwise you get CMDRs who would rather play in Private/Solo go into Open against their preference, but lured in by the bonus which will likely result in disgruntled CMDRs who feel forced into some sort of mode.

Since PvP and Co-Op are available in Private Groups, any bonuses and Co-Op missions should be available in PGs as well as in open.

 

[Flea King]

It seems less of an attempt to lure folks into Open as to reward those who persist in supporting their faction while staying in Open while performing PP activities.

I think its a great idea. PP activies in Open presents far more oppertunities for challenges above and beyond the NPCs we have at this time. As such, a reward for those engaging with PP through Open mode seems fair, especially when the reward is not personal but rather catered towards the faction a player supports.

 

[Jukelo]

Are players in Open really only 50% as efficient in banking merits, as Sandro's two-for-one offer seems to suggest, compared to those in Solo and Private Groups?

I think Sandro's figure is way too high and is a bit too round to be an honestly accurate balance parameter.

If "no player should have to choose between what they find fun and what is most efficient" - great care will need to be taken that Open Powerplay (with the Open Multipler Bonus) does not become more efficient than the other two modes - otherwise those who don't find PvP "fun" would find themselves in exactly the same position that players who prefer Open seem to find themselves in just now.

I agree with you of course. Balance is a hard thing to achieve and you should strive to not go overboard with it, or else you just create a new imbalance in the opposite direction which is just as bad. In the end what matter is that all playstyles offered by the game are as efficient as the others - so that noone is forced to play in a mode they don't really like, which would create some dissonance. For those who are on opposite ends of the spectrum and are either only goal-oriented or only interested in 'the experience' it's certainly a non-issue, as the first don't care what mode they play in as long as it's the most efficient, and the second will make their choice based purely on whether they like to play with other players or not regardless of the disadvantages, but the problem exists for those sitting in the middle, who value their playstyle but also don't like playing inefficiently. Currently it's a shame that a player enjoying the open experience has to pick solo if they want to play efficiently. It would equally be a shame if, after this change, a player enjoying the solo experience had to pick open for efficiency. Ideally they both should be able to find the same efficiency in either mode and then simply pick the mode they prefer.

I'm sure it wont be easy for Frontier to find the right balance, as I don't think they have the tools or the experience companies like Blizzard, CCP or Wargaming have access to to deal with such problems, and I suspect that's why Sandro offered that pretty generous 200% figure. He's either hoping the community will find a more accurate figure (a distant dream considering the community isn't even united on the existence of an issue), or more likely wants to start with a big number and then narrow it down progressively in further update. Considering ED seems to have been developed as a single player experience with tacked on MP, nobody should expect that they'll get the balance right from the start as SP games usually only require some very coarse balance since they're rarely scrutinized from a competitive stand point. But if they want to keep pushing Powerplay as a competitive feature, I'm sure they'll get better at this.

 

[Voiddancer]

Getting merits for killing a commander of an opposing faction rather than a bonus, I like that idea a lot more.

Don't you already get merits for killing commanders of opposing factions as long as the major power is different? Perhaps if that were boosted to make it on par with pve methods, and/or provide a better means of grouping pvp players together for combat. Perhaps also give cmdrs transporting supplies for a power a boost in Open only if they actually get attacked by a hostile cmdr, for that delivery alone, rather than a flat boost all around. The boost would have to be tweaked so that it isn't a reward for being attacked, merely compensation for lost time. The exact value could vary depending on factors like number of times interdicted, time to escape and damage taken, though it would need to be capped to help prevent abuse. As an anti-frustration feature I would argue that any boost accumulated does carry over if you switch modes, with perhaps a small reduction, for that delivery.

 

[Roland2]

It seems less of an attempt to lure folks into Open as to reward those who persist in supporting their faction while staying in Open while performing PP activities.

I think its a great idea. PP activies in Open presents far more oppertunities for challenges above and beyond the NPCs we have at this time. As such, a reward for those engaging with PP through Open mode seems fair, especially when the reward is not personal but rather catered towards the faction a player supports.

I would prefer a change that addresses the cause, not the symptom. If loosing merits due to PvP is the issue, then have death by PvP not loose merits. A bonus to all of open (PP) assumes that all players in open in every PP situation gets attacked by other players. It has been stated in this thread that PvP is easily avoided, and is rare in the lesser or little known systems.

 

[CMDR_ACID_]

deleted.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

What is the incentive for Open? Player interaction.
How would one promote Open? Promote player interaction.
How does this proposal intent to promote Open? Increase faction revenue.

I don't play PP. I will never play PP. So I at least have no personal stake in this matter. But still I can see the flaw in enticing those who would rather not play Open into Open.

Would it not make more sense to create missions which require co-op to be completed? These missions require one CMDR to carry some sort of haul, while another CMDR also has to be signed into the mission as escort (or something along those lines). These missions could have big PP rewards and would by default have to be played in open. As a bonus, player interaction is incentived, but in the form of PwP instead of PvP.

Otherwise you get CMDRs who would rather play in Private/Solo go into Open against their preference, but lured in by the bonus which will likely result in disgruntled CMDRs who feel forced into some sort of mode.

Wait for the 18 season,missions wing.

 

[Bran Tse Mallory]

Community manager needs to learn there are members of the community not playing in open who he is not helping at all other than to make another bit of game-play mode dependent.

First it was wings,
Next it's Multicrews
Now he wants PP to be 'better' in open.

Makes me feel like your only part of the games community if you play in open. How Elitist, how ironic.