(info) First bonus for playing in OPEN under consideration for PP

[Lestenio]

The reason I think is pretty simple

More people play in Solo, their own groups and Mobius, than play in Open. Because they are lower risk modes. That is a given.

I doubt this is what FD wanted if they EVER had the guts to tell us the truth.

They are now starting to realise the imbalance of risk vs equal reward and are looking to address that, in the hope that more people will RISK going into Open. Because it is a risk.

Their priorty will be ensuring that players who bought the game have fun and buy the next season expansion, not forcing players to accept more 'risk'

 

[Jockey79]

Throw the baby out with the bathwater? Seems flawed to me.

What is flawed, is flying around system to system looknig for people who may or may not be online and may or may not be in open.... none of that infomration is on the player most wanted list - so you can fly around for weeks and never see anyone you are looking for.

 

[Robert Maynard]

You miss the point totally for some reason...negative PR about anti-social players costs potential customers, that's money NOT coming in, profits lost. Once they have your money, it's not so important that you remain happy, there's no monthly sub. Basic business here Robert.

I'm not disagreeing with that at all - it just wasn't what I was referring to earlier.

Well, maybe a wee bit - the annual DLC expansion model tends to suggest that keeping existing players is somewhat important - as if they leave the game they don't buy the expansion(s).

 

[Kristov]

I'm not disagreeing with that at all - it just wasn't what I was referring to earlier.

It is the reason they are finally getting around to doing something with the crime and punishment system, so much bad PR lately that they have to do something, like the announcement that disrupting private groups and charity stream sniping will now get you in trouble, too much negative PR all over the net, it's really bad for sales. Seriously, it's starting to look like CCP and FD aren't actually out of step on dealing with griefers and gankers, it's starting to look like this may actually BE EvE with a cockpit view, that's how bad the PR is, and that's not at all what David and FD are going for, is it?

So, start beating the drums, 'we're going to stop this anti-social behaviour by punishing it under X circumstances which we've ignored before, and we're going to beef up the crime and punishment system!'. Which makes it sound like there IS a crime and punishment system in the first place, which is a joke and we all know it.

Negative PR is hitting them in the bank balance, pure and simple, so they gotta take public steps to fix that PR image. That's literally all it is Robert, it's a business, profits are the bottom line.

 

[Carmaki]

That Open has a population problem?

It may not be a population problem, per say, but it could be an issue with one type of player being over represented, driving others out.

Since I just watched a video on Bartel's Taxonomy, I'm gonna do some baseless theory crafting and tinfoil hatting!

[Tinfoilhat] The population discrepancy maybe caused by a large number of 'Killers' (Players who get the most enjoyment out of killing or otherwise inconveniencing other players) who play in open. Supposedly, Killers tends to negatively affect 'Socializers' (people who play a game to primarily to engage with other players in a non-murdery way) and a good portion of 'Achievers' (people who primarily play a game to get to a certain goal ((I.E.: I want to collect all the ships!))). These three types of players tend to congregate in the same areas where CGs are being held, and PP hot spots for different reasons: Achievers want to be the top of a scoreboard, Socailizers want to meet other people, and Killers want to send them all to the re-buy screen. Currently, the mechanics in place seem to be encouraging Killers while punishing Achievers and Socializers: insurance is expensive and it sets Achievers back from their goal, and Socializers can't socialize if they're on a re-buy screen. If this were any other game, many of those players should get frustrated and quit, but since there are other options, they simply moved to other modes... Achievers probably gravitate to Solo while Socializers go to Private Groups to talk with like-minded people.

Combine that with the vocal and recent activities of certain Killer centric groups, and the loud public response to them, more people who would try to fly in Open have left to the other two modes. [/Tinfoilhat]

 

[GilliganTX]

Actually, it's true, Solo and Group hold less risk, NPCs in this game are far from a danger to most players, hence all the cargo haulers running around in Solo/Group all by themselves without any shields or weapons so they can maximize profits. If the NPCs were actually a threat to the players, that wouldn't be happening. Ask around, many of the folks in Solo/Group are there simply to avoid other players who might attack them, that's the only threat they see in this game.

THAT is messed up, but it's the state of the game as it stands right now, NPCs aren't a risk of any consequence. Many people have asked what will happen when the NPCs getting better scripting, I have my own ideas on that, depending on how well they are done. Make those NPCs an actual appropriate level threat and this board will erupt in a massive storm of whining and crying. We already have people who quite literally complain that NPCs can attack them in Solo as it is now, making those NPCs an actual proper threat.....

Me, I'll be happy to see that, I don't like stupid worthless NPCs, no challenge, no risk, which is why I tend to play in Open unless I'm exploring, there's that chance of some risk, although with less than a dozen PvP encounters in almost a year...yeah, it's a pretty damn slight risk, less than 1 out of 100 players I've seen in Open were out for PvP...anecdotal I know, but those numbers do seem to be pretty average. NPCs, I encounter them constantly in the bubble, get interdicted all the time regardless of cargo or mission, and always kill them without thinking, gotten so simple that I can kill a wing of 4 NPCs before my FSD cools off, yeah, they are SUCH a threat. I go into SSS in order to find large numbers of NPCs just for some grins and giggles, they aren't a threat, it's just lots of fish in a barrel. How many of us go into Distress Signals for that very purpose? It's a slight challenge, not much else, and I'm far from the best at combat in this game, first to say that, I'm not even close to the level of folks like Gluttony or Maj or AlexandertheGrape, they are Elite experts, I'm just good at it, and the NPCs aren't a threat of any sort.

I agree completely, but you missed my point.

It is completely fair to say "I think Traders and minors are more likely to play in solo/group because..."
Or "Traders and miners have less risk in solo/group because..."

That's totally fine, and I agree, it's less risky there.


However, if you instead say "More people play in solo/group because..." I have to stop you, because you simply cannot back that claim up. Is all I'm saying. Don't try and use false figures to justify claims. If we don't have the data to say one way or another, don't.

 

[bitstorm]

It may not be a population problem, per say, but it could be an issue with one type of player being over represented, driving other others.

Since I just watched a video on Bartel's Taxonomy, I'm gonna do some baseless theory crafting and tinfoil hatting!

[Tinfoilhat] The population discrepancy maybe caused by a large number of 'Killers' (Players who get the most enjoyment out of killing or otherwise inconveniencing other players) who play in open. Supposedly, Killers tends to negatively affect 'Socializers' (people who play a game to primarily to engage with other players in a non-murdery way) and a good portion of 'Achievers' (people who primarily play a game to get to a certain goal ((I.E.: I want to collect all the ships!))). These three types of players tend to congregate in the same areas where CGs are being held, and PP hot spots for different reasons: Achievers want to be the top of a scoreboard, Socailizers want to meet other people, and Killers want to send them all to the re-buy screen. Currently, the mechanics in place seem to be encouraging Killers while punishing Achievers and Socializers: insurance is expensive and it sets Achievers back from their goal, and Socializers can't socialize if they're on a re-buy screen. If this were any other game, many of those players should get frustrated and quit, but since there are other options, they simply moved to other modes... Achievers probably gravitate to Solo while Socializers go to Private Groups to talk with like-minded people.

Combine that with the vocal and recent activities of certain Killer centric groups, and the loud public response to them, more people who would try to fly in Open have left to the other two modes. [/Tinfoilhat]

Can I just say on this.

I play in open, I PvE. I occasionally meet other CMDRS, encounters with other CMDRs are virtually always benign. Very rarely I will be attacked.

If socializers are being scared off, can I suggest the issue may not be killers in open scaring off socializers. It's more likely socializers blowing the issue waay out of proportion here on the forums that's scaring off socializers.

I dunno maybe I just play in a some special version of open where PvP is actually a rarity.

Someone posted this in another thread :

I have no idea if they were serious or not but really what is this rubbish?

 

[Ozram]

First off lets not try and redifine PvP, yes PvP does mean fighting other players it's been like that since the first MMo's. Really no need to change that. Secondly I'm not declaring war on a player faction I'm supporting an NPC faction, rather poorly I might add, but that's between me and the princess...There's a difference, subtile maybe but it's a difference.

No. When you choose sides and begin to support a faction you place yourself in a Player vs Player situation. Power play would have no purpose without the opposing sides. You mistake PVP for player ship to player ship combat. That is an element of PVP but it is by no means the only form of it. In pp you are part of a massive competition between player groups because it will be player groups that will attack your power (undermine) or defend (fortify). As stated before, when in either of the modes outside of Open, a player or group of players gains a direct advantage. The core of the discussion here (as I understand it) is not only to encourage player interaction by playing in open, but to make it fair to those who do choose to interact. Powerplay is gameplay designed so that players influence each others game world and thus interact with each other in direct competition. Having a disadvantage in such a mode for playing in Open is counter to the spirit of this competitive element of the game. It is literally designed for player interactions, both coop and PVP. Combined, organised efforts are rewarded, but right now they are more heavily rewarded outside of open. It's counterintuitive, to say the least. The attraction to fighting others without ever encountering them (solo, private) is downright passive aggressive but it is part of the game. Unfortunately it also affords an advantage over those who choose to do it in Open, the place designed for direct player interactions. The changes discussed in this thread don't suggest cutting out those not in open from access to powerplay, only the striping of the advantages gained from avoiding Open.

 

[GammaZ]

All this discussions about networking issues and open population made me wonder... how many people are playing "open solo" (open with UPnP not working and no port forwarding) right now? I mean game never warns user about network issues (while it knows there are issues, there is detailed enough log in game folder), how average player who just bought game on steam can know that the galaxy is empty not because there are no players, but because of networking issues? And how many people are lost to open because of it, and think that the game is completely empty/dead...
I really do not understand why all this stuff is hidden, why there are no messages/info about it when you first start the game, no ingame settings and warnings...

 

[Jockey79]

<SNIP>
I dunno maybe I just play in a some special version of open where PvP is actually a rarity.

You and I both then, as I fly around open in a T6 full of rares for a giggle, looking for trouble.
Got pulled over once and the person who did it felt sorry for me doing rare trade runs in a T6 and offered to help me learn how to earn money...

(didn't tell them I had an Anaconda parked up, lol)

Also took a few attempts to find someone in open, I even parked outside of Lave when it was popular and only ever seen 1 other person there.

 

[VR Murgle]

It may not be a population problem, per say, but it could be an issue with one type of player being over represented, driving other others.

Since I just watched a video on Bartel's Taxonomy, I'm gonna do some baseless theory crafting and tinfoil hatting!

[Tinfoilhat] The population discrepancy maybe caused by a large number of 'Killers' (Players who get the most enjoyment out of killing or otherwise inconveniencing other players) who play in open. Supposedly, Killers tends to negatively affect 'Socializers' (people who play a game to primarily to engage with other players in a non-murdery way) and a good portion of 'Achievers' (people who primarily play a game to get to a certain goal ((I.E.: I want to collect all the ships!))). These three types of players tend to congregate in the same areas where CGs are being held, and PP hot spots for different reasons: Achievers want to be the top of a scoreboard, Socailizers want to meet other people, and Killers want to send them all to the re-buy screen. Currently, the mechanics in place seem to be encouraging Killers while punishing Achievers and Socializers: insurance is expensive and it sets Achievers back from their goal, and Socializers can't socialize if they're on a re-buy screen. If this were any other game, many of those players should get frustrated and quit, but since there are other options, they simply moved to other modes... Achievers probably gravitate to Solo while Socializers go to Private Groups to talk with like-minded people.

Combine that with the vocal and recent activities of certain Killer centric groups, and the loud public response to them, more people who would try to fly in Open have left to the other two modes. [/Tinfoilhat]

Where can I get a hat like that? It looks smashing!

 

[Jockey79]

All this discussions about networking issues and open population made me wonder... how many people are playing "open solo" (open with UPnP not working and no port forwarding) right now? I mean game never warns user about network issues (while it knows there are issues, there is detailed enough log in game folder), how average player who just bought game on steam can know that the galaxy is empty not because there are no players, but because of networking issues? And how many people are lost to open because of it, and think that the game is completely empty/dead...
I really do not understand why all this stuff is hidden, why there are no messages/info about it when you first start the game, no ingame settings and warnings...

Oh the networking for ED is awful.
The game also released with UPnP off in the games XML file (that was funny).

Also, even with UPnP on and ports open etc.. if for any reason your ping times are not up to par, the match maker wont team you with anyone at all.
So some folks could be pseudo solo right now and not even know it.

 

[GilliganTX]

Can I just say on this.

I play in open, I PvE. I occasionally meet other CMDRS, encounters with other CMDRs are virtually always benign. Very rarely I will be attacked.

If socializers are being scared off, can I suggest the issue is not killers in open scaring off socializers. It's more likely socializers blowing the issue waay out of proportion here on the forums that's scaring off socializers.

I dunno maybe I just play in a some special version of open where PvP is actually a rarity.

FWIW, I'm probably somewhere between a "socializer" and an "achiever."

I started in open, and stayed there for months. I had one good experience with a random commander, and one bad. I started playing in group mobius to smuggle free from those players who were blockading robigo all that time ago. I continued to play in a mix of group/open for quite some time. I had social experiences in both, with characteristically different experiences per group.

I was hassled in open, I was welcomed in mobius, so I started playing there more often.

 

[Carmaki]

Can I just say on this.

I play in open, I PvE. I occasionally meet other CMDRS, encounters with other CMDRs are virtually always benign. Very rarely I will be attacked.

If socializers are being scared off, can I suggest the issue is not killers in open scaring off socializers. It's more likely socializers blowing the issue waay out of proportion here on the forums that's scaring off the socializers.

Once again, it is a baseless theory, but my own experience in Open has been less 'Lets cooperate or leave each other alone' and more 'Kill or be killed', but I digress.

Whether our experiences are the norm or the exceptions is kind of irrelevant; right now, Open is perceived to be swarming with 'Killers'... And let's be frank, I could have just been in the wrong place at the wrong time when I was utterly annihilated twice at two different times, but all it usually takes is once for people to form a negative opinion on something, especially when they're first getting started (which is when I was exploded the first time).

 

[Kristov]

I agree completely, but you missed my point.

It is completely fair to say "I think Traders and minors are more likely to play in solo/group because..."
Or "Traders and miners have less risk in solo/group because..."

That's totally fine, and I agree, it's less risky there.


However, if you instead say "More people play in solo/group because..." I have to stop you, because you simply cannot back that claim up. Is all I'm saying. Don't try and use false figures to justify claims. If we don't have the data to say one way or another, don't.

Fair point, yes, we can't say that more play in Solo/Group because..., there's no hard data on that, just anecdotal evidence from the folks in Solo/Group explaining why they play there. Some play Solo because they have no interest in playing with other people, end of discussion, that's it. Even FD can't give us the data on that because they don't ask and they couldn't trust the results if they did, how many people are going to flat out state they only play in Solo/Group because the NPCs aren't a threat? That leads to the devs upping the NPCs to be a threat and that's counterproductive to why they play in Solo/Group, be a silly thing to say wouldn't it.

Funny thing is, NPCs are being upped to be a threat, we'll see how well that works out, if it's actually an effective boost, well...I've got popcorn waiting. If it's not an effective boost, well...who will actually be surprised?

 

[DanaM]

Their priorty will be ensuring that players who bought the game have fun and buy the next season expansion, not forcing players to accept more 'risk'

And that new players or potential new players (customers) feel they have options (modes) and are therefor willing to make the purchase.

If Open has a "population problem," I would suggest it's because it's not fun to play there.

Consider this: you hate trading. To you it's mindless space trucking. You'd rather work some overtime than do that in a game. But you really want a Corvette, and Frontier has incentivized trading so it pays 1 billion credits an hour. What does this player do? Trades for an hour, then goes back to doing what's fun for them in the game.

IMHO, incentivizing Open won't solve a population problem. Some people will go there for a while, but very few will try it and say "Wow, I want to play in Open a lot more."

So, it's got to be fun and not enough people (apparently) feel like Open is fun. Some people will never want to play in Open no matter what you do. Making them 2nd class players is something Frontier has chosen to resist so far, probably wisely from a revenue standpoint.

These discussions spin in endless circles without anything seemingly accomplished except some forum PvP entertainment for some of the participants (nothing wrong with that ).

The only proposal I've seen that I think has any chance of making things better is a redo of the crime and punishment system and having true high security and lower security/anarchy systems.

 

[Ozram]

Once again, it is a baseless theory, but my own experience in Open has been less 'Lets cooperate or leave each other alone' and more 'Kill or be killed', but I digress.

Whether our experiences are the norm or the exceptions is kind of irrelevant; right now, Open is perceived to be swarming with 'Killers'... And let's be frank, I could have just been in the wrong place at the wrong time when I was utterly annihilated twice at two different times, but all it usually takes is once for people to form a negative opinion on something, especially when they're first getting started (which is when I was exploded the first time).

Harassment in the starting systems is unfortunate. Once you get outside those immediate systems such behaviour drops off steeply. There talk that the system of crime and punishment needs to be tweaked but that's a talk for a different thread.

 

[Jypson]

Fair point, yes, we can't say that more play in Solo/Group because..., there's no hard data on that, just anecdotal evidence from the folks in Solo/Group explaining why they play there. Some play Solo because they have no interest in playing with other people, end of discussion, that's it. Even FD can't give us the data on that because they don't ask and they couldn't trust the results if they did, how many people are going to flat out state they only play in Solo/Group because the NPCs aren't a threat? That leads to the devs upping the NPCs to be a threat and that's counterproductive to why they play in Solo/Group, be a silly thing to say wouldn't it.

Funny thing is, NPCs are being upped to be a threat, we'll see how well that works out, if it's actually an effective boost, well...I've got popcorn waiting. If it's not an effective boost, well...who will actually be surprised?

> I'm not a developer or anything, but I would think a little tweak to how AI ships are outfitted would be a huge step in the right direction. I'm usually in a HAZRES doing some pirate popping, and I'm often surprised about how the ships are outfitted. You can immediately tell when a NPC ship is properly outfitted or not. Vutlure's and Anacondas are the most obvious to me. When it's a proper loadout, Anaconda's can almost be dangerous depending on what I'm flying; but if they got outfitted in Sillyville Station, its a complete and utter push-over.

 

[Kristov]

And that new players or potential new players (customers) feel they have options (modes) and are therefor willing to make the purchase.

If Open has a "population problem," I would suggest it's because it's not fun to play there.

Consider this: you hate trading. To you it's mindless space trucking. You'd rather work some overtime than do that in a game. But you really want a Corvette, and Frontier has incentivized trading so it pays 1 billion credits an hour. What does this player do? Trades for an hour, then goes back to doing what's fun for them in the game.

IMHO, incentivizing Open won't solve a population problem. Some people will go there for a while, but very few will try it and say "Wow, I want to play in Open a lot more."

So, it's got to be fun and not enough people (apparently) feel like Open is fun. Some people will never want to play in Open no matter what you do. Making them 2nd class players is something Frontier has chosen to resist so far, probably wisely from a revenue standpoint.

These discussions spin in endless circles without anything seemingly accomplished except some forum PvP entertainment for some of the participants (nothing wrong with that ).

The only proposal I've seen that I think has any chance of making things better is a redo of the crime and punishment system and having true high security and lower security/anarchy systems.

Fixing the crime and punishment system won't bring people into Open, people avoid other players because they don't want to deal with other players, that's it. Be it because they want a solo game like some do or because they aren't afraid of the NPCs and fear players, it doesn't matter, they won't go to Open. Fixing the crime and punishment system IS going to make a lot of the Solo/Group players unhappy however, because they do things all the time that break the law and NOW they'll actually have repercussions to that, which effectively don't exist right now. Combine that with upping the actual threat NPCs present and...firestorms acomin ma!

The PP modification Sandro has proposed is fair and fixes an actual imbalance in the modes currently, and evidently FD has the data that shows there IS an imbalance in the modes when it comes to PP. Not that we need to know that, we can see it ourselves, there's a reason people do PP in Solo/Group instead of Open, we've known that since shortly after PP was added, it ain't news nor a secret. This fixes that, which is all it's meant to do. I don't like it for reasons that have nothing to do with it's effectiveness, but it IS an effective and logical fix to a real and present problem, and has nothing to do with getting people to play in Open over Solo/Group.

All modes are supposed to be equal, remember? PP, that isn't the case, so why are people who demand that equality in all modes so against it? Maybe because they don't really want equality in modes, they want some modes to be more equal than others? That little picture for the Mobius group, it may or may not be a joke, but it DOES say exactly what the proponents of the Mobius group say...

 

[Majinvash]

Source?

Hacked the server recently?

Or is that from lost_the_argument_so_making_up_information.com

Every post you make, makes me wonder about you.

So is Open full of people or not?

If its FULL of people then, why is this even an issue?

If its NOT full of people, where are they?

3 Options

No longer playing the game
In Solo
In Private.

Open is the main mode. Argue all you want, throw about thousands of quotes, stamp your little feet.
If it wasn't you guys wouldn't be lobbying for a PVE version of Open. You would be happy with what you got from Kickstarter.

I worked at Game Head Office for 2 years and I know the target audience we had. I cannot imagine it has changed that much to this day and I can remember the games that sold the best. ( Hint they were not long slow grinding games )

Also no matter what percentage of the player base is Open only and PVP based, it is a percentage that FD as a company wants to keep.
So they are going to have to cater for them with stuff, WE want and Arena isn't it.

Other games are coming out that are space related and ED is going to lose players to it.

All of this is why I think they are starting to realise they need to do some thing to keep Open players, not only in Open but in the game.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open