(info) First bonus for playing in OPEN under consideration for PP

[Carmaki]

Snip

I don't like it, not because of it's a change to Power Play, but because of the presidence it sets. How long before bounties pay out more in open? Trading is worth more? What about exploring in Open? That's my primary concern, because I was sold on the ability that all of the modes are equal, with none receiving special treatments over the others. It is your, and Frontier's, choice if you want to change your minds but I (and I suspect some other folks) will be less than pleased.

 

[Lustan]

Powerplay is unique in that it explicitly *enforces* adversarial multiplayer by making Commanders choose sides. You are no longer fighting against the vagaries of the galaxy; you are competing directly with Commanders pledged to opposing powers.

Right here it says PowerPlay is designed to pit players verses players. This contradicts a lot of the nonsense others have tried to spread.

 

[Arubeto]

Hello Commander Sammarco!

There are thousands of Commanders that engage to some degree or another in Powerplay. Some play in Open, some don’t. If we are successful in getting more Commanders into Open, then the potential for them bumping into each other could increase rather significantly.

I was intrigued by Powerplay's concept in general, but didn't particularly enjoy the time I spend with it. I thought it's presentation and UI is kind of a mess and has little personality and that there are too few tangible effects in the contested systems (apart from the constant interdictions). I also didn't like how extremely limited the activities are that one can undertake to support his or her chosen Power (just one mission type for preparing, fortifying and undermining each).

I am also not interested in PvP (outside from the very entertaining CQC) or competitive multiplayer in ED (I do like it in some other games, though) and rather prefer solo or private groups for events like the player organized "Distant Worlds" expedition.

Therefore, by increasing the rewards for playing a system I do not enjoy very much in it's current form - Powerplay - in a game mode I am not too interested in - open - (or decrease the rewards for playing it in solo or group mode, if you change your point of view), you are not actually boost the incentive for people like me to finally embrace Powerplay. Instead, the likelihood for me to participate in Powerplay will further diminish, even though I think PP is a good idea in general (as mentioned above).

So, instead of further decreasing Powerplays appeal for people like me (and judging by forums posts I don't think I am alone with my opinion), I'd suggest to rather work on how Powerplays effects are communicated to the players, on increasing the way it's effects are represented and to add more missions and ways how one can contribute to ones chosen Power.

Bottom line: by boosting Powerplay rewards in open, my interest in it is rather decreasing instead of increasing, hence I'd wager you might miss your target to get more players to engage in Powerplay and perhaps would instead trigger the opposite.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Agreed.

Hey, give me your thought on BGS where we distinguish player owned faction and NPC owned faction, you said you were going to think about it.

 

[Brimstone]

Right here it says PowerPlay is designed to pit players verses players. This contradicts a lot of the nonsense others have tried to spread.

*gasp* but players verses players isn't PVP! you're expanding the definition to fit your arguement! /sarcasm.

 

[GilliganTX]

Hey, give me your thought on BGS where we distinguish player owned faction and NPC owned faction, you said you were going to think about it.

Pump the breaks homie. I'm only one cup of coffee down this morning.


EDIT: It's not something I've read to much about yet, probably going to be a bit before I have any idea what I think about it.

 

[Brimstone]

Hello Commander Sammarco!



I was intrigued by Powerplay's concept in general, but didn't particularly enjoy the time I spend with it. I thought it's presentation and UI is kind of a mess and has little personality and that there are too few tangible effects in the contested systems (apart from the constant interdictions). I also didn't like how extremely limited the activities are that one can undertake to support his or her chosen Power (just one mission type for preparing, fortifying and undermining each).

I am also not interested in PvP (outside from the very entertaining CQC) or competitive multiplayer in ED (I do like it in some other games, though) and rather prefer solo or private groups for events like the player organized "Distant Worlds" expedition.

Therefore, by increasing the rewards for playing a system I do not enjoy very much in it's current form - Powerplay - in a game mode I am not too interested in - open - (or decrease the rewards for playing it in solo or group mode, if you change your point of view), you are not actually boost the incentive for people like me to finally embrace Powerplay. Instead, the likelihood for me to participate in Powerplay will further diminish, even though I think PP is a good idea in general (as mentioned above).

So, instead of further decreasing Powerplays appeal for people like me (and judging by forums posts I don't think I am alone with my opinion), I'd suggest to rather work on how Powerplays effects are communicated to the players, on increasing the way it's effects are represented and to add more missions and ways how one can contribute to ones chosen Power.

Bottom line: by boosting Powerplay rewards in open, my interest in it is rather decreasing instead of increasing, hence I'd wager you might miss your target to get more players to engage in Powerplay and perhaps would instead trigger the opposite.

This won't be a bonus to personal rewards.

 

[VR Murgle]

Hello Commanders!

Lots of lively debate here, for sure, but let's keep things civil, please. I understand that this is an emotive subject, but remember, that's never an excuse for being rude.

So, just to let you folk know a little more of the reasoning behind the concept of an Open Play bonus, I thought I'd pop this out.

Elite Dangerous is a game where you can just as easily play solo, in groups or as part of a nation, as it were.

In general, there aren't mechanical befits within the game to push you towards one style of play over another.

However, there are a few aspects of the game that are specifically aimed at utilising the fact that the game has multiplayer facets, one of these is Powerplay.

Powerplay is unique in that it explicitly *enforces* adversarial multiplayer by making Commanders choose sides. You are no longer fighting against the vagaries of the galaxy; you are competing directly with Commanders pledged to opposing powers.

In addition, Powerplay has rules to handle direct Commander-Commander confrontation. Indeed, this is the core conceit: the system encourages justifiable piracy and homicide for a higher purpose. It’s my belief that Powerplay will always be at its best when opposing Commanders interact directly, whether in an expansion conflict zone or through interdiction.

So it feels natural (to me) to look at ways to encourage Commanders to use Open Play. However, It’s also fairly clear that human opposition is potentially, and generally speaking, much more of a significant threat than NPCs.

Now we have to consider probabilities. Yes, it’s perfectly reasonable to say that you might never run into a human opponent in a control system, even playing in open. The fact remains however, that you *might* instead run into several. And this is on top of the standard NPC threat, which is identical in all play modes.

What’s more, the more pledged Commanders that play in Open, the greater the likelihood there is of human interaction and conflict.

There are thousands of Commanders that engage to some degree or another in Powerplay. Some play in Open, some don’t. If we are successful in getting more Commanders into Open, then the potential for them bumping into each other could increase rather significantly.

And there’s another point to make here, that’s quite simple but also fairly undeniable, is that playing in Open you don’t just meet other Commanders pledged to Powers. You meet *all* other Commanders. That includes all sorts of scum and villainy (character persona only, of course).

So what would an Open Play Success bonus actually achieve? The idea is that it’s a reward for taking the additional risk, whether the risk actually manifests or not.

If you care about Powerplay, and care that you power does well in it, then playing in Open is a “force multiplier” for your Power’s strength.

If you generally play in a Private Group or in Solo, it’s also a gamble, because in addition to all the NPC challenges you have the possibility of opposing Commanders engaging you.

If you already play in Open then you could treat this bonus as a reward for working with the game to make it the best it can be for all involved.

As to the size of the bonus, well, that’s up for grabs. Clearly it would have to be reasonably large to have the potential to cause significant change, but I’m not too worried about the details of that at the moment, I’m more interested in what folk make of the concept in general.

Of course, it’s equally important to remember that this is, at the moment, just being raised as an idea, nothing more. Everyone’s opinion is equally valid, even in disagreement, and all feedback is useful.

I had a whole reply in my head but really I'd only be repeating what I've said before but you might want to find out what is is that would really make Open appealing for (some) those currently not playing there. I'm sure there are clues to be found on these forums.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Hello Commander Sammarco!



I was intrigued by Powerplay's concept in general, but didn't particularly enjoy the time I spend with it. I thought it's presentation and UI is kind of a mess and has little personality and that there are too few tangible effects in the contested systems (apart from the constant interdictions). I also didn't like how extremely limited the activities are that one can undertake to support his or her chosen Power (just one mission type for preparing, fortifying and undermining each).

I am also not interested in PvP (outside from the very entertaining CQC) or competitive multiplayer in ED (I do like it in some other games, though) and rather prefer solo or private groups for events like the player organized "Distant Worlds" expedition.

Therefore, by increasing the rewards for playing a system I do not enjoy very much in it's current form - Powerplay - in a game mode I am not too interested in - open - (or decrease the rewards for playing it in solo or group mode, if you change your point of view), you are not actually boost the incentive for people like me to finally embrace Powerplay. Instead, the likelihood for me to participate in Powerplay will further diminish, even though I think PP is a good idea in general (as mentioned above).

So, instead of further decreasing Powerplays appeal for people like me (and judging by forums posts I don't think I am alone with my opinion), I'd suggest to rather work on how Powerplays effects are communicated to the players, on increasing the way it's effects are represented and to add more missions and ways how one can contribute to ones chosen Power.

Bottom line: by boosting Powerplay rewards in open, my interest in it is rather decreasing instead of increasing, hence I'd wager you might miss your target to get more players to engage in Powerplay and perhaps would instead trigger the opposite.

It seems like you are, in general not interested in any competitive PvP mechanic, which PP is one. This is not meant to be a derogatory statement, but an observation.

Also, no reward was decreased, merely balanced where private and solo used to be the incentivized modes for PP.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

I had a whole reply in my head but really I'd only be repeating what I've said before but you might want to find out what is is that would really make Open appealing for (some) those currently not playing there. I'm sure there are clues to be found on these forums.

Crime and punishment, which the devs stated that they are working on as we speak.

 

[VR Murgle]

This won't be a bonus to personal rewards.

Unless you consider the impact your actions have on the position of your power to be the reward and actually try to improve said position rather than, say fortify the nearest system to ridiculous heights.

 

[Abil Midena]

Hello Commanders!

Spoiler

Lots of lively debate here, for sure, but let's keep things civil, please. I understand that this is an emotive subject, but remember, that's never an excuse for being rude.

So, just to let you folk know a little more of the reasoning behind the concept of an Open Play bonus, I thought I'd pop this out.

Elite Dangerous is a game where you can just as easily play solo, in groups or as part of a nation, as it were.

In general, there aren't mechanical befits within the game to push you towards one style of play over another.

However, there are a few aspects of the game that are specifically aimed at utilising the fact that the game has multiplayer facets, one of these is Powerplay.

Powerplay is unique in that it explicitly *enforces* adversarial multiplayer by making Commanders choose sides. You are no longer fighting against the vagaries of the galaxy; you are competing directly with Commanders pledged to opposing powers.

In addition, Powerplay has rules to handle direct Commander-Commander confrontation. Indeed, this is the core conceit: the system encourages justifiable piracy and homicide for a higher purpose. It’s my belief that Powerplay will always be at its best when opposing Commanders interact directly, whether in an expansion conflict zone or through interdiction.

Spoiler

So it feels natural (to me) to look at ways to encourage Commanders to use Open Play. However, It’s also fairly clear that human opposition is potentially, and generally speaking, much more of a significant threat than NPCs.

Now we have to consider probabilities. Yes, it’s perfectly reasonable to say that you might never run into a human opponent in a control system, even playing in open. The fact remains however, that you *might* instead run into several. And this is on top of the standard NPC threat, which is identical in all play modes.

What’s more, the more pledged Commanders that play in Open, the greater the likelihood there is of human interaction and conflict.

There are thousands of Commanders that engage to some degree or another in Powerplay. Some play in Open, some don’t. If we are successful in getting more Commanders into Open, then the potential for them bumping into each other could increase rather significantly.

And there’s another point to make here, that’s quite simple but also fairly undeniable, is that playing in Open you don’t just meet other Commanders pledged to Powers. You meet *all* other Commanders. That includes all sorts of scum and villainy (character persona only, of course).

So what would an Open Play Success bonus actually achieve? The idea is that it’s a reward for taking the additional risk, whether the risk actually manifests or not.

If you care about Powerplay, and care that you power does well in it, then playing in Open is a “force multiplier” for your Power’s strength.

If you generally play in a Private Group or in Solo, it’s also a gamble, because in addition to all the NPC challenges you have the possibility of opposing Commanders engaging you.

If you already play in Open then you could treat this bonus as a reward for working with the game to make it the best it can be for all involved.

As to the size of the bonus, well, that’s up for grabs. Clearly it would have to be reasonably large to have the potential to cause significant change, but I’m not too worried about the details of that at the moment, I’m more interested in what folk make of the concept in general.

Of course, it’s equally important to remember that this is, at the moment, just being raised as an idea, nothing more. Everyone’s opinion is equally valid, even in disagreement, and all feedback is useful.

Hi Sandro,

I would like to restate and clarify my opinion and what you have already responded with in this thread. I think there is an understanding that the logic behind giving a bonus to Open PP players is also applicable to Open BGS players. https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=237822&p=3671699&viewfull=1#post3671699

Some seem to not understand what a BGS player is, so let me explain.

I can choose to support minor faction "HIP NCC 1701D Democrats". While I have not been forced to do that, I have chosen to do that. I am no longer just facing the vagaries of the galaxy, I am now competing against any commanders and player groups that have chosen to support a minor faction within ~ 50LY of any of my faction's systems.

Now that I have chosen a side, my piracy and homicide can be justified as they are for a higher purpose; supporting my chosen faction. Some would say that this competition between various minor faction pledges is at its best when opposing Commanders interact directly, whether in an expansion system conflict zone, or through interdiction to stop trade, or simply kill for causing lockdown, etc. My goal is to have my minor faction rule the system and as many systems nearby as possible, and my faction gov't type will alter the rules of those systems to its own.

So as you can see, this is EXACTLY the same as PP, with the exception that I can't have a little tag in my I.D. panel that says "HIP NCC 1701D Democrats" for all to see. So, if you institute a bonus for Open PP, you MUST do the same for all Open players where an action supports a minor faction influence (most do). Unless, of course, you (FD) simply choose not to.

This is why I think that a % bonus for a particular mode is NOT the way to go. Let's find another way so it doesn't come to what I have underlined above.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Fold

Already looking for a solution in terms of distinguishing player owned faction from NPC faction, if they get big enough, they'll end up in PP anyway.

 

[DaveB]

Hello Commanders!

Lots of lively debate here, for sure, but let's keep things civil, please. I understand that this is an emotive subject, but remember, that's never an excuse for being rude.

So, just to let you folk know a little more of the reasoning behind the concept of an Open Play bonus, I thought I'd pop this out.

Elite Dangerous is a game where you can just as easily play solo, in groups or as part of a nation, as it were.

In general, there aren't mechanical befits within the game to push you towards one style of play over another.

However, there are a few aspects of the game that are specifically aimed at utilising the fact that the game has multiplayer facets, one of these is Powerplay.

Powerplay is unique in that it explicitly *enforces* adversarial multiplayer by making Commanders choose sides. You are no longer fighting against the vagaries of the galaxy; you are competing directly with Commanders pledged to opposing powers.

In addition, Powerplay has rules to handle direct Commander-Commander confrontation. Indeed, this is the core conceit: the system encourages justifiable piracy and homicide for a higher purpose. It’s my belief that Powerplay will always be at its best when opposing Commanders interact directly, whether in an expansion conflict zone or through interdiction.

So it feels natural (to me) to look at ways to encourage Commanders to use Open Play. However, It’s also fairly clear that human opposition is potentially, and generally speaking, much more of a significant threat than NPCs.

Now we have to consider probabilities. Yes, it’s perfectly reasonable to say that you might never run into a human opponent in a control system, even playing in open. The fact remains however, that you *might* instead run into several. And this is on top of the standard NPC threat, which is identical in all play modes.

What’s more, the more pledged Commanders that play in Open, the greater the likelihood there is of human interaction and conflict.

There are thousands of Commanders that engage to some degree or another in Powerplay. Some play in Open, some don’t. If we are successful in getting more Commanders into Open, then the potential for them bumping into each other could increase rather significantly.

And there’s another point to make here, that’s quite simple but also fairly undeniable, is that playing in Open you don’t just meet other Commanders pledged to Powers. You meet *all* other Commanders. That includes all sorts of scum and villainy (character persona only, of course).

So what would an Open Play Success bonus actually achieve? The idea is that it’s a reward for taking the additional risk, whether the risk actually manifests or not.

If you care about Powerplay, and care that you power does well in it, then playing in Open is a “force multiplier” for your Power’s strength.

If you generally play in a Private Group or in Solo, it’s also a gamble, because in addition to all the NPC challenges you have the possibility of opposing Commanders engaging you.

If you already play in Open then you could treat this bonus as a reward for working with the game to make it the best it can be for all involved.

As to the size of the bonus, well, that’s up for grabs. Clearly it would have to be reasonably large to have the potential to cause significant change, but I’m not too worried about the details of that at the moment, I’m more interested in what folk make of the concept in general.

Of course, it’s equally important to remember that this is, at the moment, just being raised as an idea, nothing more. Everyone’s opinion is equally valid, even in disagreement, and all feedback is useful.

Hi Sandro, glad to see you're still reading even after so much back and forth!

I'm going to reiterate something I've said before in more than one thread on this subject.

Make it about what we do, not what mode it's done in. I'll admit my position has "evolved" a bit on this since the discussions I participated in back in beta but I have come to the view that giving some kind of recognition for preferring to take on another cmdr than an NPC could be appropriate. We've already got situations where there is something you can "do" that gets you a benefit isn't available in all modes and therefore the benefit isn't available. You can't wing up and get the benefits of doing so in solo, but you can in a private group or in open. What I'd like to see is whenever "destroy a ship" gets you any kind of direct or background result - whether that's a bounty voucher, a combat bond, a mission payout, a rep uptick or downtick with a particular faction, a bonus or detriment to any power, that it would be reasonable to give a "danger bonus" to ALL those effects if the ship you destroyed to get it was a live player - in any mode.

Making it mode-specific means that a guy farming NPCs in open gets the same benefits as the guy taking on another player in open does, whereas the guy taking on that same player in a private group does not. This does not seem reasonable to me at all and it's a breaking of the current state where all modes are "equal and equally valid" whereas applying a bonus to your actions by taking what is arguably the higher risk course, irrespective of mode, is not - even though the highest risk choices may not be available in all modes simply because of a given modes characteristics.

 

[VR Murgle]

snip


Crime and punishment, which the devs stated that they are working on as we speak.

Which won't make any difference to those who would like to avoid PvP all together, will it? And yes some of those do like the idea of PP and funnily those people also care about the result of their actions.

 

[Kristov]

without reading the entire thread I do not know if this has been mentioned... Sandro, what is to stop me from docking at my powers home system in OPEN, gathering the necesarry PP materials for fortify or expand, then going into GROUP / SOLO, flying to the destination and docking at the station, logging back into OPEN to deliver the goodies and get the 2x effect for my power?

If this has been 'countered' already then I apologise for raising a moot arguement, if it has not been countered yet, then the argument remains valid...

A flag set on the cargo for Open, switch modes that flag goes aways, no more Open modifier to the Power, simple fix, already something they've done, see the Titan card challenge.

Indeed. It's interesting to on the one hand to be told to go play in solo or private group if we're not interested in PvP or 'can't handle it' only to then be told once people have done that (in droves if what some say about PP is to be believed), open needs incentives to be bring people back because those in open feel somehow disadvantaged as a result (conveniently ignoring it seems that the way to oppose PvE-based PP activities is to actually execute those same PvE-based PP activities but in opposition - and mode choice makes no difference there - except to PvPers). Amusing even......

Being told to go to Solo or Group if you don't want to face PvP is simple logic, those 2 modes exist precisely for that reason, to avoid the possibility of PvP and unwanted social interactions(PvP is simply ONE of those possible social interactions people don't want, another is saying 'hi' or seeing a commander name that you don't like, etc, and that's being very serious, the list of reasons people give for not wanting any social interaction runs the gamut from serious to 'oh my god are you freaking kidding me!').

This isn't being told to that using the proper mode to avoid unwanted social interactions is what you need to do to avoid those. This is being told that if you want to be most effective in PP then you must switch to Solo/Group in order to do so. It's not a subtle difference at all, so why the failure to understand it keeps being presented can only be due to willful ignorance. The modes aren't equal for PP, this isn't supposition, this is fact, Sandro has confirmed what we've known to be true since PP hit, the best way to do PP is in Solo/Group mode, simple as that. Go look at the PP forums here and on reddit, this isn't news, this isn't a secret, this is a well known and abused fact of the way the modes work. To continue to deny that there is an imbalance clearly shows personal bias and that's it.

I don't even LIKE Sandro's proposal but I keep defending it because of the fallacies that keep being presented. Imbalance exists, we know it, FD knows it, proposal to address that is presented, anti-PvP crowd goes rabid in decrying it. If that imbalance had been in Solo/Group and Sandro had made this proposal, you'd all be frothing at the mouth to get it done NOW! But it's a proposal for the mode you hate, so that means it can't be allowed to happen.

Again, I'd rather see PP moved to Open only, that's it, it's a Player vs Player mechanic, once again stated as so by Sandro, so that's where it should be, where Player vs Player is actually possible, not in Solo or Group.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Unless you consider the impact your actions have on the position of your power to be the reward and actually try to improve said position rather than, say fortify the nearest system to ridiculous heights.

Sandro used the term in terms of monetary and faction authority reward, you should know that already.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Which won't make any difference to those who would like to avoid PvP all together, will it? And yes some of those do like the idea of PP and funnily those people also care about the result of their actions.

People that want to avoid combative PvP all together can still play PP, but in the competitive scope, those that face direct player opposition should be rewarded for doing so, otherwise all the incentives go to avoiding combative PvP whether one prefers to or not, which is a disrespect of choice in the plainest sense in a competitive mechanic.

If people want to avoid player to player competition, then they probably shouldn't be playing PP since that's all it is about in the end as Sandro clarified.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

I don't quite understand Sandros reasoning. He says its a "you maybe run into PvP" Bonus, yet he also says it will be only for Open. But that you maybe run into PvP is true for Groups as well, not all Groups are PvE and even when they are you maybe still will run into PvP as we have learned.

 

[GilliganTX]

A flag set on the cargo for Open, switch modes that flag goes aways, no more Open modifier to the Power, simple fix, already something they've done, see the Titan card challenge.



Being told to go to Solo or Group if you don't want to face PvP is simple logic, those 2 modes exist precisely for that reason, to avoid the possibility of PvP and unwanted social interactions(PvP is simply ONE of those possible social interactions people don't want, another is saying 'hi' or seeing a commander name that you don't like, etc, and that's being very serious, the list of reasons people give for not wanting any social interaction runs the gamut from serious to 'oh my god are you freaking kidding me!').

This isn't being told to that using the proper mode to avoid unwanted social interactions is what you need to do to avoid those. This is being told that if you want to be most effective in PP then you must switch to Solo/Group in order to do so. It's not a subtle difference at all, so why the failure to understand it keeps being presented can only be due to willful ignorance. The modes aren't equal for PP, this isn't supposition, this is fact, Sandro has confirmed what we've known to be true since PP hit, the best way to do PP is in Solo/Group mode, simple as that. Go look at the PP forums here and on reddit, this isn't news, this isn't a secret, this is a well known and abused fact of the way the modes work. To continue to deny that there is an imbalance clearly shows personal bias and that's it.

I don't even LIKE Sandro's proposal but I keep defending it because of the fallacies that keep being presented. Imbalance exists, we know it, FD knows it, proposal to address that is presented, anti-PvP crowd goes rabid in decrying it. If that imbalance had been in Solo/Group and Sandro had made this proposal, you'd all be frothing at the mouth to get it done NOW! But it's a proposal for the mode you hate, so that means it can't be allowed to happen.

Again, I'd rather see PP moved to Open only, that's it, it's a Player vs Player mechanic, once again stated as so by Sandro, so that's where it should be, where Player vs Player is actually possible, not in Solo or Group.

PvP is possible in all forms in group.

If PP is PvP, then PvP is possible in solo.

 

[GluttonyFang]

I don't quite understand Sandros reasoning. He says its a "you maybe run into PvP" Bonus, yet he also says it will be only for Open. But that you maybe run into PvP is true for Groups as well, not all Groups are PvE and even when they are you maybe still will run into PvP as we have learned.

You can still control who you interact with in Group.

 

[GilliganTX]

Already looking for a solution in terms of distinguishing player owned faction from NPC faction, if they get big enough, they'll end up in PP anyway.

It's a good question.