(info) First bonus for playing in OPEN under consideration for PP

[GluttonyFang]

Hello Commanders!

A couple of clarifications:

* This change, which remember is nothing more than a suggestion at this point, would have no effect on personal gain. It would affect success values for expansion, fortification and undermining only, not the merits you earned.

* It does not, and is not, meant to be a panacea to make the actual activities of Powerplay better. It's best to think of it as activity agnostic. That's not to say that we don't want to improve the activities (we do!), just that this is not aimed at that.

* The reason this benefit would only apply to Open as opposed to in Private Groups is fairly clear I think: we have no way to control distribution in Private Groups. Folk could start a Private Group where everyone was pledged to a single power. This would effectively then be Solo in terms of dealing with the potential threat of other Commanders.

* I would not want to introduce this into any aspect of the game except Powerplay because Powerplay is the only aspect of the game that explicitly uses the concept of adversarial multiplayer, as opposed to the more vague ways that minor factions operate.

Hope this info helps.

I like what I read.

 

[Lheim]

The people that all play in Mobius and Solo think it's not avoidable. May be this will teach them how to play in a PVP environment.

To be fair, having the places 'where all the people at' be automatically pvp hotspots is kinda a problem. There's no place for people who enjoy a more cooperative style of play to congregate that would remain a pve-focused area.

 

[Jypson]

That's basically been the core of my argument the whole time.

ATM, the modes are treated equally. Them being treated equally creates inequity in the "merit output" of the groups.

Sandro wants to remedy the inequity by treating one group differently, or unequally, from the others.


Again, being very clear that this is neither intrinsically good or intrinsically bad. It is just an observation.


My opinion based on that observation, is that treating one mode differently or unequally breaks their long standing "three equal modes" promise, and that is disingenuous to a lot of players, and FD should consider how they're going to implement this very, very carefully.

Well, the first time we saw disparity by my memory was 1.2 last year. No NPC wing-mates means the modes are no longer equal. Can I get in a wing, yes, but not in Solo obviously. Yes, Solo is my choice, so it's my own decision not to take advantage of Wings, but the disparity is real.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

The key here is the "maybe". It' expected that you will get attacked where as in private groups if managed properly you expect to never get attacked.

It can't be done with private groups regardless of it's size because no matter what you set the population threshold to people will would find a way to reach that threshold and still be able to avoid PVP. It has to be limited to Open.

Not all Private groups have no PvP rule, thats not PGs are about. They can even be focused on PvP.

Max instance size is very limited anyway, so you don't need as many people in a group as in open to get a instance full of CMDRs just like one in Open.

Not if you choose trust worthy friends and not to mention you have the ability to remove them as a group owner.

How should I know everybody in groups with thousands of members? Not to mention that I'm not the owner of every group, it can always only be one.


I just would appreachiate we call it by the name, its a supposed bonus for clicking open that has nothing to do with PvP. If it should be a bonus for PvP, said bonus would need to be tied to PvP. Otherwise its possible that someone doing some PP stuff in open without encountering any PvP, while at the same time someone in a group doing the same PP stuff and does encounter PvP but not he is getting the bonus but instead the other guy that didn't encounter any PvP. Because he clicked open.

 

[Brimstone]

You aren't the only one Jabokai, lets be honest here, the powerplay sub forum on these boards is a graveyard, there is a lot of 'pretend' interest in powerplay here and quite frankly I'm not buying it. Many of you guys applauding this have no interest in powerplay or the respective powers, you are just interested in being able to get the next 'must have' shield or weapon A.S.A.P, as soon as you have it, screw the power.

Now, what are Frontier trying to 'fix' here, powerplay or open via the back door?, because frankly offering bonuses for PVP/Pk'ers to get their shields and weapons faster is a bizarre move. So Frontier if you are trying to incentivise powerplay, good luck, there is a general lack of interest in it and the powers behind it, just the goodies sadly, if you are trying to get people into open via a back door, poor form Frontier and you are showing an obvious lack of understanding of the why's and wherefores of opens problems.

To those of you that are genuinely interested in powerplay and your powers even after you have what you can from then, kudos to you but sadly, I would think, you guys are probably a minority, whatever the numbers, you guys are the only, and I mean ONLY ones that deserve a better powerplay, and this isn't going to be it.

There are subreddits for powerplay, there are discord servers for powerplay, there are teamspeak servers for powerplay.

What I'm saying is, not all of the playerbase use these forums.

 

[GilliganTX]

* I would not want to introduce this into any aspect of the game except Powerplay because Powerplay is the only aspect of the game that explicitly uses the concept of adversarial multiplayer, as opposed to the more vague ways that minor factions operate.

I think this is an important point, and I'm going to dispute you on it.

I agree with you that this should be limited to Power play.

How then, will that affect player factions when/if they are elevated to the status of "galactic power," as has been part of the game plan for quite some time now?

 

[Theodrid]

There are subreddits for powerplay, there are discord servers for powerplay, there are teamspeak servers for powerplay.

What I'm saying is, not all of the playerbase use these forums.

Obviously, but the tick of the forums is a decent indicator, lets not pretend this is anything but a 'get my shields/lasers' quicker thing for most of the advocates in this thread, because, hell, their posts or lack of on the powerplay sub speaks volumes.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

* The reason this benefit would only apply to Open as opposed to in Private Groups is fairly clear I think: we have no way to control distribution in Private Groups. Folk could start a Private Group where everyone was pledged to a single power. This would effectively then be Solo in terms of dealing with the potential threat of other Commanders.

That can be true for a Private group but don't has to, it rather depends on the Group. Again, why not tie the reward to the activity you want to reward? Its weird that you get no merits at all for destroying a Player of an enemy faction anyway, so its hard to understand why that is not the first thing to change if the intend is to reward the extra risk of PvP.
Zero rewards for PvP while giving rewards for playing Open just does not look like you want to reward the PvP, it looks like you want to reward playing open

 

[GilliganTX]

Well, the first time we saw disparity by my memory was 1.2 last year. No NPC wing-mates means the modes are no longer equal. Can I get in a wing, yes, but not in Solo obviously. Yes, Solo is my choice, so it's my own decision not to take advantage of Wings, but the disparity is real.

That kind of back tracks to my point that mechanically, all three modes are the same, equal. The only effective difference is the population. There is nothing in solo preventing you from joining a wing except for the [lack of] population to wing with. The mechanic doesn't work differently, there's just no one there on which to employ it.


This change is different in that it is a direct alteration to the mechanics of one group, and making their contributions to the BGS more impactful than the ohters. IMO that is a distinct difference from no one being around to use a certain mechanic.

Like Krisov said, there is no anti- PvP tag in solo. Mechanically it's the same as the other two groups, there's just no one else in your box to shoot at/wing with.

The fact that there is no one there to use the mechanic with is inequity, not inequality.

That's how I see it anyway.

 

[Brimstone]

Hello Commanders!

* I would not want to introduce this into any aspect of the game except Powerplay because Powerplay is the only aspect of the game that explicitly uses the concept of adversarial multiplayer, as opposed to the more vague ways that minor factions operate.

Hope this info helps.

I understand, though I hope perhaps this will be reconsidered once the bonus for Powerplay has been implemented, tested, and proven to be successful.

 

[Alexander the Grape]

Thanks for clarifying.

If nothing else, I *really* hope we can at least get our claws into this idea in a Beta someday

 

[Jypson]

That kind of back tracks to my point that mechanically, all three modes are the same, equal. The only effective difference is the population. There is nothing in solo preventing you from joining a wing except for the [lack of] population to wing with. The mechanic doesn't work differently, there's just no one there on which to employ it.


This change is different in that it is a direct alteration to the mechanics of one group, and making their contributions to the BGS more impactful than the ohters. IMO that is a distinct difference from no one being around to use a certain mechanic.

Like Krisov said, there is no anti- PvP tag in solo. Mechanically it's the same as the other two groups, there's just no one else in your box to shoot at/wing with.

The fact that there is no one there to use the mechanic with is inequity, not inequality.

That's how I see it anyway.

I understand your point of view and definition, but disagree that it's different. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Zieman]

Hope this info helps.

Not really.

* I would not want to introduce this into any aspect of the game except Powerplay because Powerplay is the only aspect of the game that explicitly uses the concept of adversarial multiplayer, as opposed to the more vague ways that minor factions operate.

So you say now. Mark my words: if you implement PP bonus in open, the vocal minority demand for more bonuses in open will increase, you'll soon cave in - maybe for community goals first, and suddenly we find ourselves in a situation where open is the easy mode, +200% for everything (compared to solo/group). [down]

 

[Majinvash]

Not really.

So you say now. Mark my words: if you implement PP bonus in open, the vocal minority demand for more bonuses in open will increase, you'll soon cave in - maybe for community goals first, and suddenly we find ourselves in a situation where open is the easy mode, +200% for everything (compared to solo/group). [down]

Exactly how it should be Risk vs Reward

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

 

[Brimstone]

Not really.

So you say now. Mark my words: if you implement PP bonus in open, the vocal minority demand for more bonuses in open will increase, you'll soon cave in - maybe for community goals first, and suddenly we find ourselves in a situation where open is the easy mode, +200% for everything (compared to solo/group). [down]

I hate to pull a Bill Clinton on you, but... Define 'easy'.

 

[Kristov]

Obviously, but the tick of the forums is a decent indicator, lets not pretend this is anything but a 'get my shields/lasers' quicker thing for most of the advocates in this thread, because, hell, their posts or lack of on the powerplay sub speaks volumes.

So much ....I did PP for months, never posted once in the PP forums here or the reddit, but I read them constantly and followed the commands of the folks running the ALD PP, I did nothing on my own just because. I didn't get my Hammers and switch to another Power, I stayed, because I wanted to see the ALD power grow and grow. Then I realized, it's just a grinding mechanic, our actions weren't doing what they should have due to the 5th column and lost soul activities totally negating the directed actions. I headed out in to the Black for a few months and defected, haven't gone back to PP since as it's not changed one little bit.

Many others exactly like me, we're not all 5th columnist or lost souls or cherry pickers, might want to keep that in mind.

 

[CrazedHatter]

Hello Commanders!

Lots of lively debate here, for sure, but let's keep things civil, please. I understand that this is an emotive subject, but remember, that's never an excuse for being rude.

So, just to let you folk know a little more of the reasoning behind the concept of an Open Play bonus, I thought I'd pop this out.

Elite Dangerous is a game where you can just as easily play solo, in groups or as part of a nation, as it were.

In general, there aren't mechanical befits within the game to push you towards one style of play over another.

However, there are a few aspects of the game that are specifically aimed at utilising the fact that the game has multiplayer facets, one of these is Powerplay.

Powerplay is unique in that it explicitly *enforces* adversarial multiplayer by making Commanders choose sides. You are no longer fighting against the vagaries of the galaxy; you are competing directly with Commanders pledged to opposing powers.

In addition, Powerplay has rules to handle direct Commander-Commander confrontation. Indeed, this is the core conceit: the system encourages justifiable piracy and homicide for a higher purpose. It’s my belief that Powerplay will always be at its best when opposing Commanders interact directly, whether in an expansion conflict zone or through interdiction.

So it feels natural (to me) to look at ways to encourage Commanders to use Open Play. However, It’s also fairly clear that human opposition is potentially, and generally speaking, much more of a significant threat than NPCs.

Now we have to consider probabilities. Yes, it’s perfectly reasonable to say that you might never run into a human opponent in a control system, even playing in open. The fact remains however, that you *might* instead run into several. And this is on top of the standard NPC threat, which is identical in all play modes.

What’s more, the more pledged Commanders that play in Open, the greater the likelihood there is of human interaction and conflict.

There are thousands of Commanders that engage to some degree or another in Powerplay. Some play in Open, some don’t. If we are successful in getting more Commanders into Open, then the potential for them bumping into each other could increase rather significantly.

And there’s another point to make here, that’s quite simple but also fairly undeniable, is that playing in Open you don’t just meet other Commanders pledged to Powers. You meet *all* other Commanders. That includes all sorts of scum and villainy (character persona only, of course).

So what would an Open Play Success bonus actually achieve? The idea is that it’s a reward for taking the additional risk, whether the risk actually manifests or not.

If you care about Powerplay, and care that you power does well in it, then playing in Open is a “force multiplier” for your Power’s strength.

If you generally play in a Private Group or in Solo, it’s also a gamble, because in addition to all the NPC challenges you have the possibility of opposing Commanders engaging you.

If you already play in Open then you could treat this bonus as a reward for working with the game to make it the best it can be for all involved.

As to the size of the bonus, well, that’s up for grabs. Clearly it would have to be reasonably large to have the potential to cause significant change, but I’m not too worried about the details of that at the moment, I’m more interested in what folk make of the concept in general.

Of course, it’s equally important to remember that this is, at the moment, just being raised as an idea, nothing more. Everyone’s opinion is equally valid, even in disagreement, and all feedback is useful.

As someone whom flies exclusively in Private Groups and for whom NO incentive exists to get me to change that policy, I still think this is a great idea, because Open IS more of a risk, I'm fine with the fact that I would have less impact on the grander scheme than one willing to risk open play. I, very simply, am not willing to risk open play and my few attempts at it have definitely solidified this for me.

 

[Jockey79]

Hello Commanders!

A couple of clarifications:

* This change, which remember is nothing more than a suggestion at this point, would have no effect on personal gain. It would affect success values for expansion, fortification and undermining only, not the merits you earned.

* It does not, and is not, meant to be a panacea to make the actual activities of Powerplay better. It's best to think of it as activity agnostic. That's not to say that we don't want to improve the activities (we do!), just that this is not aimed at that.

* The reason this benefit would only apply to Open as opposed to in Private Groups is fairly clear I think: we have no way to control distribution in Private Groups. Folk could start a Private Group where everyone was pledged to a single power. This would effectively then be Solo in terms of dealing with the potential threat of other Commanders.

* I would not want to introduce this into any aspect of the game except Powerplay because Powerplay is the only aspect of the game that explicitly uses the concept of adversarial multiplayer, as opposed to the more vague ways that minor factions operate.

Hope this info helps.

Cheers for the clarifications, but 2 things;

1) Have you considered how people can get the boosted values for expansion, fortification and undermining but not run in to another CMDR (pseudo Solo in Open) - as the only "undermining" going on would be your time, effort and hard work.

2) Why even bring it publicly? You could have tweaked those values (and still could) in the background and as long as it wasn't a massive sweeping change, I doubt anyone would have noticed.

 

[Theodrid]

So much ....I did PP for months, never posted once in the PP forums here or the reddit, but I read them constantly and followed the commands of the folks running the ALD PP, I did nothing on my own just because. I didn't get my Hammers and switch to another Power, I stayed, because I wanted to see the ALD power grow and grow. Then I realized, it's just a grinding mechanic, our actions weren't doing what they should have due to the 5th column and lost soul activities totally negating the directed actions. I headed out in to the Black for a few months and defected, haven't gone back to PP since as it's not changed one little bit.

Many others exactly like me, we're not all 5th columnist or lost souls or cherry pickers, might want to keep that in mind.

And, yeah, read my original post, kudos for doing so but are you seriously pretending that some of the other posters in this thread are 'alligned' to anything other than themselves and their ship survivability? There is no '', just clarity of observation, I clearly did not state 'all', I clearly did not state 'every poster' and congratulated those true powerplayers, so no, no '', just a reading fail on your part apparently. So, given that, I obviously did 'keep it in mind'. /rollseyes

 

[Jypson]

So much ....I did PP for months, never posted once in the PP forums here or the reddit, but I read them constantly and followed the commands of the folks running the ALD PP, I did nothing on my own just because. I didn't get my Hammers and switch to another Power, I stayed, because I wanted to see the ALD power grow and grow. Then I realized, it's just a grinding mechanic, our actions weren't doing what they should have due to the 5th column and lost soul activities totally negating the directed actions. I headed out in to the Black for a few months and defected, haven't gone back to PP since as it's not changed one little bit.

Many others exactly like me, we're not all 5th columnist or lost souls or cherry pickers, might want to keep that in mind.

> :S I'm getting lost on some of these terms. I think I understand that a 5th columnist is; someone who joins to work against the power? What are the other two?