And it is no risk to you if you counter that effort against players who are in solo. Why is this so difficult for some people to understand. The argument is ridiculous.
The fallacy of how PvP can protect your system from being undermined.
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And it is no risk to you if you counter that effort against players who are in solo. Why is this so difficult for some people to understand. The argument is ridiculous.
So what?
If you're having fun and they are having fun, what's the problem? You're still arguing for a substantial change in how the game was intended to be, was designed to be and has been developed to be, all just to suit your particular view of how it "should" be. You are definitely not alone in that view but the bottom line is simply this... This is the game. If you like it keep playing it and by all means be an advocate for ways to make what it is better, however what you are arguing for is changing what it is into what you think it should be. Unsurprisingly, that flies like a brick.
There's no way a player will ever decide in which mode I will visit any system.
And egos are invested in it. The solo/pg/open system is a complete debacle and simply holds back what the game could really become. With the greatest respect to developers these things are a bad system and whilst I don't like doing so we have to point the finger at David Braben. As game director he is ultimately responsible.
I'd like ED to be a great game and deliver upon its potential but the game is and has been severely shackled by an ideology and mindset at FD HQ. Its the senior folk at FD who have to answer to all of this. What is clear to my eye is that its not the ability of the staff but the hinderence of senior players who appear to have an ideological stance towards games.
The phrase chickens coming home to roost is likely an apt description of poor choices made for the game. My interest is the game being a great one but we are never going to get their if we continue to stunt whats possible with a heavily contrived and scripted treadmil system for game play.
Lets be brutally honest, the game might have sold 1.5 million copies but I get the impression its never going to get much higher. And thats all down to how restricted the gameplay really is. The game could be epic but its never going to be when all it amounts to is a heavily contrived, scripted, and controlled treadmil. The PvE game is dull and boring. It might suit you but its killing the games future imo.
Whilst I've never had a problem with the pricing of the game I think a look at the steam reviews should be enlightening enough. You may wish and be happy for the game to be niche but it doesn't serve the company's bottom line. Things need to change and the game and certain players need to grow up a little.
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While in a way you are correct, its only a divide that the PvPers seem to have a problem with. the PvEers are quite happy with the situation, and as far as i can tell, those who are neither strongly PvP or PvE don't seem to care much either. I think the worst i've heard from those in the middle is that large player groups means those people are not flying in open and solo so reduces their chances of meeting people, so the galaxy feels less alive than it should be.
Not sure the latter is a valid argument, unless you believe that the active players in Mobius (less than the 20+ k members that it claims for sure) are a significant portion of the total playerbase. If they represent a single digit % of the total active playerbase, then whatever effect they are having on the BGS compared to Open players is minimal. They are also then not responsible for Open being empty. If it is the case that there is a significant % of players in Mobius, then it actually says that there is a large % of the population who want PvE, which also sends a different message, one that a lot of players do not want PvP interactions and feel strongly enough about it to seal themselves away from the possibility of PvP.
On to the solo guys, and well, they play solo for a reason. Either due to internet, or they want a single player experience. For the former, they have to remain divided. For the latter, they simply are not going to be happy in Open anyway. So "fixing" the divide is going to turn a lot of players away.
Ok, i've drifited a bit, but the main problem here I think is that only a relatively small % of the total playerbase actually have a serious issue with the divided playerbase. I'd guess a vast majority are rather "meh" about the whole thing (especially those who do not participate in forum life), or at least, when they bought the game, they looked at the mode separation and thought "ok, i can live with that".
And not having a dig at you directly here Stalker, you're a good chap and we have had good chats on IRC, but buying a game, reading about how it will work (designed to work), and then afterwards complaining about how it works, well, I think its rather silly.
Perhaps the only people who get a pass on this are backers who backed before FD announced how the architecture would work and how the BGS would be shared between modes. I have no idea of the numbers or dates of deciding things were going to be like this, but that information was advertised since at least Beta. Maybe even Alpha? How many players should get a free pass on that they bought the game before it was announced how modes and the BGS would work?
Interesting opinion. Because for me, the mode system was a strong selling point for me, and allows the game to be greater than it would be otherwise, allowing those who want to PvP to have it, and those who want coop to have it, and those who want to lock themselves away to have it.
A single mode - well, that could lead the game to becoming EvE in cockpits, at least in central systems, along with the toxicity and ego preening that comes along with it.
One thing i love about the ED community. Toxicity is relatively low compared with many other online games (especially PvP focused ones), and those who need their egos massged by a game probably won't stick around for too long, except the most persistent.
There are games out there that cater to a more PvP experience, and SC is coming which just might satisfy those looking for that sort of experience (or not) in space.
I'm really hoping that FD hold their course with this and ED remains the game I paid for, not some PvPers paradise.
Again: why not let the faction decide in which game mode(s) it would like to be influenced?
Factions that play open only can check [x] "influenced by open", and every player who want to support/undermine it needs to deal with that.
@Agony_Aunt: Like YOU said yourself: many PVE'ers dont play open just because of that small chance their shining new ships could get a scratch. This would effectively stop many from undermining open-only faction without any risk. Its not like you need to kill everyone, to stop them. Just like in the real world, the deterrence does the job.
Factions that play open only can check [x] "influenced by open", and every player who want to support/undermine it needs to deal with that.
@Agony_Aunt: Like YOU said yourself: many PVE'ers dont play open just because of that small chance their shining new ships could get a scratch. This would effectively stop many from undermining open-only faction without any risk. Its not like you need to kill everyone, to stop them. Just like in the real world, the deterrence does the job.
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That's alright mate, I getz ya
I was day 1 KS backer who I don't mind admitting just went "WHOOO HOOO ELITE, TAKE MY MONEY" without reading much about anything. I don't actually care enough about any of its failings to lose my love of a game I first played on a C64, but am ok giving an opinion where I think it might improve things or give someone an alternative angle.
I'm also not that bothered about merging of modes and don't mind how people play the game. Just an indication as to what was being done and by what volume in the other modes would go some way in helping.
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And urk, just realized how far we are getting off-topic.
Can we focus on the main point, and not turn this into an Open vs Solo debate?
Otherwise damnit, ill have to ask for it to be locked... erm...
Can we focus on the main point, and not turn this into an Open vs Solo debate?
Otherwise damnit, ill have to ask for it to be locked... erm...
I guess for the same reasons they don't allow players to check a box [x] I don't want PvP when I go into Open. You have to adapt and play to your surroundings.
If a PvEer wants to trade in Open they should learn the skills to avoid PvP and equip a suitable ship.
If a PvPer wants to 'own' a minor faction they are agreeing to PvE because its part of the BGS and should adapt their gameplay to suit
I am making a proposal to solve this whole problem... its just that you seem to ignore it.
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I just don't see how that could even work at all. At the very least, it would be a coding nightmare.
And as for what you said that I said. Its not at all what i said. Please don't misquote me. PvEers get their ships scratched regularly by NPCs. I'll let you into a something... i've had my FdL killed by a pair of T9s! The horror! Its not losing ships is the problem. Its who we lose a ship to is the problem and their motivation. We know the AIs motivation, they are programmed to behave in certain ways. Players have a choice. Modes allow us to have a choice of what sort of players we want to interact with. That is the difference. I don't even mind PvP if there is a reason for it. Just all too often, when i've experienced PvP in Open, the motivation was "for the lulz", especially when i was flying a non-combat ship, and they were flying a PvP fitted combat ship.
As I said elsewhere, ED sucks for PvP, unless you are committed to PvP. And that means ignoring flying over half the ships in game and not doing half the activities in the game, simply because your combat ship is not fitted for it. Not the game i want to play.
hehehe but you HAD to expect that, right? You KNOW you can't write a post with the letters "PvP" in it that doesn't condemn everything else without it turning into yet another mode war.
Some folks just can't cope with the idea that a game could be anything BUT a PvP game. It's the whole single minded arrogance that the game is somehow "broken" because it's about something other than guilds and pewpew.
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Maybe something could be done within the new crime and punishment work. You are after all undermining the ruling faction, perhaps that faction should have some teeth for people who it deems "enemy". It would add some actual risk for everyone if you had to do your work under the watch of the ruling faction and face the possible consequences of being found to be a "terrorist" attempting a coup. Just a thought
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Uhh... yeah but we're just DOING MISSIONS... y'know, the missions that FDev want us to do to justify the whole existence of the BGS? Gonna be hard to get people to do missions if the cops chase them for it.
Its a false dichotomy to suggest its one or the other (PvE or PvP). There is absolutely no reason why we can't have an EvE like system of safe and dangerous areas. That was a thing back in the orginal game, Anarchies were tough to travel in, secure systems much safer. The game space is ridiculous in size and I do think its all going unused.
In my view the PvE experience is dull, predictable and just boring. I'd me more than happy playing it if it was more engaging and less of a predicable treadmil. I can't say you are wrong in enjoying finding new earth like worlds and only exploring but its a niche interest. Have you played space engine? Strikes me as something thats more what you are after.
Heres the thing though.. What is going to make ED really successful? What they have delievered or something else, more akin to a sandbox... FD are a small independent studio and even if they had the will I can't see them ever being able to deliver enough rich PvE gameplay for the game to be awesome.
Even though we are at different ends of the spectrum, one day, be nice if I could escort you, or someone like you, through dangerous space. All that gameplay and interesting political intrigue is lost atm.. Solo/Pg.
I just don't think its working anymore and all the arguments over this are a testement of how bad its negatively affecting the game. Word does get about but be careful what you wish for in suggesting people find another game..
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That is simply not relevant.
REGARDLESS OF MODE, COUNTERING PLAYERS USING THE BGS AGAINST A MINOR FACTION REQUIRES DEFENDING PLAYERS TO USE THE BGS TO COUNTER.
Attempting to stop a group from doing so using PvP methods alone is an exercise in futility.
Period. End. Fin. Done.
I agree. However game-mode is not relevant to this discussion. It's not about open or solo or group. It's about players complaining that a tire iron is not the correct tool with which to dig a hole - PvP is not the correct tool with which to effect the BGS.
And even if one did not care or was not discouraged then the effort was a waste. And this thread isn't strictly about "stopping" undermining. PvP could absolutely discourage players from doing so in open. It won't stop everyone in every game mode. In order to counter players effecting change in the BGS requires PvE activity. That is a fact.
No kidding. People letting bias influence how they're reading the OP and framing the context in which they view the issue. It's a simple statement - if someone is using the BGS against you, the most effective counter is to play the BGS back. Engaging in PvP in order to stop PvE actives is largely futile.
The trader has the choice... the open minor faction does not!
If the trader wants to do his trading in peace without no harm, he can just switch in solo.
If the Open playing minor faction wants to defend its faction with their prefered playstyle, they can not.
The logical conclusion to this is to remove negative influence, lets just expand FOREVER!!!!!!!!
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