Macroing, sign of UI change required?

[NoCarrier]

I suppose you could say that people using VoiceAttack macros have an advantage over people who don't, sure.

However, people who play with TrackIR or the Oculus Rift have an advantage over the people who need controls to pan around. People who play with a fancy joystick or a HOTAS setup have an advantage over people who play with gamepads or K&M. People who play on 1440p or TripleHead2Go have an advantage over people stuck on 720p. People playing with 60+ frames per second have an advantage over people struggling to reach 20 fps. Fifteen year-olds with razor sharp reflexes and hand-eye coordination have an advantage over the forty-year olds. People playing Elite since the alpha will have an advantage over the newbies. People with 20/20 eyesight have an advantage over me and my 20/40 (corrected!) vision. And so on, and so on...

How on earth are you going to equalize all of that?

As some posters pointed out above, the hyper-competitive people are going to find ways to get an edge. I remember the multiplayer Falcon 4.0 dogfighting days, when adversaries would dump half their fuel just to get that miniscule performance edge over their opponent. Never mind that in reality, the F-16 can't vent its fuel. Never mind that in a real world scenario, the F-16 is short-legged as it is and its pilot would never waste fuel like that. But gamers did it, just for that quantum of advantage.

FD can redesign the UI until hell freezes over, and it won't help a bit in leveling the playing field. That's not to say that I don't think the UI could use some improvements, because I do, but the argument that the UI needs redesigning because its bare use doesn't stack up against macro usage is a bit misguided, in my opinion.

 

[Jezzah]

FD can redesign the UI until hell freezes over, and it won't help a bit in leveling the playing field. That's not to say that I don't think the UI couldn't use some improvements, because I do, but the argument that the UI needs redesigning because it's bare use doesn't stack up against macro usage is a bit misguided, in my opinion.

Totally agreed!

Theres a ways to go before the HUD and UI is complete. I dont think FD will make everyone happy and there'll always be some that will find fault. As you also say - I really dont think FD should be putting effort into leveling things for those that dont use the "enhancements" available.

For instance - Voice Attack is cheap (£5/$8) - anyone can use it all you need is a mic. It can be used at whatever level people want.

Sure the likes of Oculus is expensive but ive found using TrackIR performs much the same thing, its not too expensive either at around 80-120 quid depending where you look.

I'm no rich bloke but i bought into these things because they enhance the feeling of the game for me, not because they give an appreciable edge in combat - in the case of VA its actually slower to say a thing than press a button but i love the feeling of control!

 

[Hellhawk666]

I use VoiceAttack extensively but I wouldn't say it gives any particular sort of "edge", and that is not why I use it.

The bottom line is that a keypress is always going to be a faster method of interfacing with the game than issuing a voice command, and it's also 100% transportable, as I have found when moving between my desktop that has VoiceAttack and TrackIR and my laptop that has neither.

Although you can concatinate commands in VoiceAttack, and that is technically a macro, I don't get the feeling that those of us who do so are using this facility in order to use macros per se. The benefit is being able to use voice commands instead of having to remember a large number of keypresses. It is simply easier and more intuitive (but not necessarily faster) to say "deploy" or "guns" instead of hitting a key. It's also more fun

Besides, the great majority of my voice command bindings are for single keystrokes, not multiples. Those that are for multiples are concerned with controlling things on the side panels such as landing gear deployment and requesting docking clearance or hyperspacing. As these are not combat critical controls I don't see that these genuine "macros" give me any advantage, other than removing the annoyance of having to issue multiple keypresses for no good reason.

I've not been convinced by the arguments that the side panels create "immersion", in fact I think the opposite is true, but I'm not violently opposed to them either. As long as only non-combat commands are placed there and they are used for referring to dynamically changing data then they have a function. It would be a sensible compromise, however, to at least allow keybinds within the panels instead of relying totally on step-by-step navigation.

Some dynamic data like ship cargo scans could more conveniently appear temporarily on the HUD, and a slight revision of the current UI would be welcome if it included such features. I would not, however, like to see a very cluttered HUD and I'd prefer to stay with the current design than go that way.

 

[Ben Ryder]

I don't think OP was talking about dumbing down the UI so everyone's on a level playing field. I think they're making the point that because a lot of people can use other tools to make their experience more enjoyable - the fundamental design, if not broken, perhaps needs attention. And maybe they're right.

I use a HOTAS stick and VoiceAttack. The keyboard-only elitists would be horrified I'm sure. The joystick isn't seen as an unfair advantage in games generally - it's seen as another input method. And VoiceAttack is simply pressing buttons with your voice. Sort of.

Macros are, arguably, either mere extensions of the above, or a dreadful short-cut unfair advantage. Your point of view dictates which side of the argument you personally come down on.

I think anything that involves you having to be present, at all times, in front of the monitor controlling the action is fair game. Anything that allows you to play and only keep one eye, or one hand, on what's going on and you're getting into dodgy territory. And that then leads us into the whole 'why bother playing at all' argument.

But I think, in summation, all the OP was saying was that if people are finding they're getting the most fun from interacting with the game using third party tools, perhaps the basic design needs some TLC. Or maybe he wasn't and I've missed the point entirely... I'm old. I'm allowed

That was a great post. Your summary makes a strong point. People are finding the basic design needs some TLC.

As an aside, I'm testing using pure keyboard only. Purely for testing the game in its most basic form. No extras or add ons. I did have a go with a joystick but thought nah.. I'd rather test it as vanilla as I can (as close to low spec as possible) and see what kind of game I get out of it.

So I'm going for the lowest rung on the ladder. Just a keyboard.

Sure, when the game is out I'll play it on my new samsung 4k screen and side high end dell 30 inch and my HP in portrait for menus etc and some other bells and whistles like maybe a joy stick and other stuff. However, right now, to me, it's all about testing the game in its raw format. Can't get much more standard than a keyboard and single screen. If it works great on that then anything else is a plus, to me. So I'm focusing on the game as it is and not the add-ons. I guess we are all interested and testing different aspects of the game in it's early days. My testing stance, which isn't everyones, is if it's not part of the release or free then it's an add-on. Even if it's a common add-on like a joystick, its not free as part of the game when you buy it. I'm assuming that all PC owners have a keyboard but not all have reason or money to buy expensive computer equipment to play the game once it is finally released.

So there's going to be lots of views and lots of noise about what works well. I'm keen to see something that works well for everyone constrained by the price tag of the basic game.

 

[-o-]

So what are FD trying to do here?

From my understanding, they are trying to put the user in a "from the commanders eyes" perspective when a user plays the game. This is very important to them for the various immersion reasons they strongly believe in. Whether you or I believe this is best for the game is another matter, but it is what FD are trying to achieve with the ED experience.

They want you to feel like you are that commander, and this encompasses all the natural restrictions which come with that. This is why they are generally against external views - because unintoxicated, a person cannot have an out-of-body experience and view their own physical presence from another position.

This should also apply to the way commands are issued.

If voice assist (or other bindings) allow you to bypass the normal control methods used in flying a ship - whatever they may be, then such action is not from the perspective of "the commanders eyes".

In the example below..

Normally, and adhering to FD's "commander's eyes" principle, you would have to shift your viewpoint to the right and enter this HUD to retract your landing gear. This will consume a certain amount of time, as well as blind you from your main screen and HUDS. This is natural as the UI for this function was designed by FD to be on the right hand side, and as a commander, you would normally be blinded and slowed when using this command process to retract your gear.

My question is ..

If you bind and issue this "retract/deploy gear" command to a key, joystick, or voice command, does it force your viewpoint to move to the side, and then does it go through some simulated automated UI selection process where you see various menu options being selected until you get to the "LANDING GEAR" selection point (to simulate the time it would normally take to select this via the UI)?

If it does not, then I see this as an inconsistency in FD's "commander's eyes" dogma.

In other, normal games, the purpose of key/voice binding is to facilitate a quicker and easier user response - but ED is not a normal game. Great effort has been made by FD to maintain a certain feel to the game.

They can't have it both ways.

Either you are providing an authentic simulation of a commander's actions (including issuing commands), or you are not.

 

[Yaffle]

There is no landing gear keybind yet, but there is a cargo scoop one. In fact I think it was used on the Twitch stream the other night.

When pressed, it deploys the scoop. No simulated head to right, panel change, option change, toggle.

If one was to macro it then out of necessity you'd be doing all of the simulation stuff as the panel can't take the macro inputs without being the focus.

I think part of the panels' problems is the Oculus Rift focus of it all, seemingly making that the best way to use them. I use three monitors and get annoyed that I have to pull the menu to the centre one to use it, giving me a view of the back wall of the ship on my one monitor. The other now shows a zoomed in image of the radar with a tiny bit of external view. I can't see why, as there is space there, my view can't be left alone and the menu pop up in position on the left/right screen. That, for me, would be more immersive.

Overall the UI needs more work and thought, it still does not feel intuitive, immersive or natural to me. In fact a lot of the time it's the opposite of those.

 

[Mephane]

If voice assist (or other bindings) allow you to bypass the normal control methods used in flying a ship - whatever they may be, then such action is not from the perspective of "the commanders eyes".

Maybe it is only because I have watched too much Star Trek, but I find the act of issuing voice commands to a computer very fitting for a space ship commander.

Question: does any of the Voice Attack users here record all their commands as starting with "Computer: ..."?

 

[Riandor]

Part of the problem is that ED encompasses a multitude of roles for the pilot, but the bulk of what we've seen so far has been limited to combat.

Once we're out into the big wide galaxy and doing our trading, or monitoring the space lanes for prey, or checking the wanted lists for nice juicy bounties, the majority of what we're doing will be more akin to flying a GA aircraft or airliner than a fighter plane. [snipped rest to save space ]

Whenever this discussion has come up this has always been my stance.
Flight mechanics, combat, landing, stealth, targeting, all laid out in front of you as much as possible. When I'm "dog-fighting" etc my attention should always be front and centre.

I too would be perfectly happy to have to leave my chair, of for chair to move to other panels to do non flight essential stuff. Or just more side menu integration, whatever. Love menus, love interaction, but just not when I'm flying and needing to pay attention.

 

[Memnoch]

Whatever decisions are made, I hope that ED remains a game of individual pilot skill and not who can write the best macro.

 

[Paulo_B27]

?

I don't see this as a problem OP, as I have a HOTAS joystick and TrackIR, so I can change setting very swiftly.

I appreciate not everyone can afford this, but would highly recommend you consider investing if you can - it brings flying a Cobra to life.

Also - I've watched YouTube videos of people using Voice Attack and I thought it looked pretty clumsy when someone has to shout 'stop' three times to actually stop their ship... Much better to have proper throttle control.

Good luck.

 

[Juniper]

There will always be an issue with someone having a better, more streamlined control mechanism than you.

The solution to my mind is not to nerf or redesign the game, but to learn from what they do and try and do it yourself. If VA is the bone of contention - it's only £5 so really anybody can afford it. I bought it, and have so far found it a bit clunky, but I'm probably just not using it right.

As others have said, those with head trackers, VR helmets or HOTAS setups will also have an inherent advantage over those without, but again, that's just the way it is. There's nothing wrong with that. I can't afford TrackIR or Oculus, but I'm completely fine with those who utilise them.

 

[mahoon]

As a VA side-note. It's recommended (and I'll support this) that you go through the tedious Windows 'I'm now talking to my computer...' speech training program at least three times.

I've done it at least half a dozen times now and I'm convinced it's vastly improved VA's accuracy. After playing a session, looking back through the VA history I'll only see 'unrecognised command' when I've had to break away from the game and answer a question from the missus (nothing like wave 8 of Incursion and the missus wants to know where we keep the 5 amp fuses...).

So, tedious it may be, and foolish it makes you sound but do the speech training prog over and over. I really do think it helps. If nothing else, it will help reinforce your kid's already 'he's so sad' opinion of you

 

[Memnoch]

If nothing else, it will help reinforce your kid's already 'he's so sad' opinion of you

Are they not in to gaming at all? At some point I'm sure they are going to be looking over your shoulder and it will suddenly click, and they will see what the fuss is about!

 

[huwthomas]

If VA is the bone of contention - it's only £5 so really anybody can afford it. I bought it, and have so far found it a bit clunky, but I'm probably just not using it right.

Or GlovePIE offers the same functionality for free, just a bit less user friendly (i.e. no equivalent GUI).

But no matter how it's done, voice control is clunky compared to direct control; there's a delay while you speak the command phrase (at least once!) and while the system processes it. And there's also a risk of spurious inputs. All in all the main advantage of voice control is that it's fun.

 

[Luniticisi]

I have no problem with people using VA, I used to use voice commands for "Star Trek: Bridge Commander" and it was fantastic, but it's also difficult for me to use Voice command software as I have a pet Bird, and the amount of times the self destruct would start or I would fire off torpedo's because the bird thought it was a good time to start making noise was unreal.

I can just see it now ... in the heat of battle ... I'm just about to bring down the Anacondas shields and all of a sudden the bird chirps and my shields drop ... BOOM! ----- Damn you Bird ! *Wave's fist*

 

[Jezzah]

is the bird temporarily portable

 

[Luniticisi]

is the bird temporarily portable

He would just get louder if I moved him away from me ... little blighter ! .. and knowing my luck he would learn the commands and shout them from another room anyway

 

[Robbie]

I have no problem with people using VA, I used to use voice commands for "Star Trek: Bridge Commander" and it was fantastic, but it's also difficult for me to use Voice command software as I have a pet Bird, and the amount of times the self destruct would start or I would fire off torpedo's because the bird thought it was a good time to start making noise was unreal.

I can just see it now ... in the heat of battle ... I'm just about to bring down the Anacondas shields and all of a sudden the bird chirps and my shields drop ... BOOM! ----- Damn you Bird ! *Wave's fist*

lol... What you need is a throat mic :smilie:

 

[Luniticisi]

lol... What you need is a throat mic :smilie:

*mmmmmmmmnnnnnnnnnnnnn i know what you meeeeean!"

 

[-o-]

... but it's also difficult for me to use Voice command software as I have a pet Bird, and the amount of times the self destruct would start or I would fire off torpedo's because the bird thought it was a good time to start making noise was unreal.

I can just see it now ... in the heat of battle ... I'm just about to bring down the Anacondas shields and all of a sudden the bird chirps and my shields drop ... BOOM! ----- Damn you Bird ! *Wave's fist*

VA Rule No.1: no pre-game baked beans.