BREAKING NEWS: The Code lost Orrere, Tvasus, and Zaonce!

[TomP]

The problem is the term 'manipulation' can be easily misconstruded into the whole BGS and player factions thing, because it requires Dev involvement to 'manipulate' the BGS and put these factions in place in the first instance.

Someone who does Powerplay more than me can probably quantify it better but, for example the Dev's put a player faction into a system as the controlling Power once which (i) backed a different superpower than the previous one and (ii) was a different government type, messing with the PP fortification costs for that system for Sirius (who controlled the system in terms of Powerplay).

The powerplayers had no way to oppose this sudden appearance beyond a long hard slog at the BGS to set things right, which if done using ingame mechanics rather than the 12 year old dungeon mastering that seems to happen, would have been interesting .

Fair points, Goose. The BGS is certainly not perfect, and mistakes have been made, but as we learn more about it, those who choose to play it are becoming ever more adept.

 

[xondk]

At least in Eve the risk of someone being a arrogant condescending pillock was mitigated by the fact that if they carried on like some people do on this forum, someone else would come and kick their sandcastles over, which Elite limits due to it's varying game modes.

Which in turn, because of the way Eve works, causes them to group together in even bigger groups and kick sand in everyone's eyes continually, and simply by fortune of being big they keep kicking over sandcastles and kicking sand in people's eyes, being annoying, wardeccing, abusing every mechanic they can to annoy others, then said others leave because they do not enjoy that kind of behaviour, and the game loses players.
Nothing of what certain groups have done in Eve is directly illegal, it is all valid actions, but you need moderation on such things, and Eve last I checked haven't been great on that, though they have tried to limit wardeccing and similar, so big corps that can afford it, don't simply make small corps lose money.

Lets face it, leaving everything directly in player hands has lead Eve down a road that doesn't seem healthy, or at the very least only caters to a specific group of players, already within another group that would enjoy a game like Eve.
In Elite, players are one step removed from that, layering mechanics in between that can moderate stuff, this I would say is a good thing, the vast majority of behaviour remains available, including player freedom, but there is something to prevent rampant abuse, by design, rather then by afterthought as it seems with Eve.

Now, no, I am not saying Elite is perfect, but its approach seems more solid in my book. I used to play Eve and love it, pvp and pve, but it went down hill slowly but surely. Add to the way you needed to 'gain' experience in it, simply waiting while 'learning' and yeah....didn't work out right for me and demanded way....way more time, granted now people can just have a sub and plan a long line of training but still.

 

[Cosmos]

In short, the way I see it there are sandcastles in ED, and you can kick them over. However, SDC and 'eve-like' players want a different kind of sandcastle which doesnt work as well with the mode system (controlling space, for example). Your final analogy is pretty good here, but it does raise the question why some people insist on trying to play rugby on what is clearly a football pitch. Espescially if they then continue to complain 'you cant play sports on this pitch!'. Obviously one can, just not the sport they are interested in.

I think you have a solid point here. I suppose I like many other players were hoping for more but its becoming ever more increasingly obvious the type of gameplay I'd like to see isn't likely ever going to come to ED. That wouldn't bother me so much if the PvE game was a great experience or offered great gameplay but I don't think it does.

Its a personal view but I think all the great stuff ED has goes to waste because of the restrictions that we have in game. I find less and less reason to log into the game these days and I am unhappy with the direction FD are taking. The player faction implementation is a fudge as far as I am concerned and the 'event' to raise one to a power is a deeply dissapointing way to go. Two of the worse elements of the game combined, CGs and PP.. Grind away to decide who becomes a power, with FD pulling the strings smoke and mirror style. Zzzz

Even though I can't stand the click and point style of EvE I do look at that game wtih envy in terms of how dynamic and spontaneous an emergent sandbox experience it is.

 

[Anopheles]

The BGS is very flat and very static. I think we'd all be more invested and excited by Faction war if borders shifted quickly, if there were 'strikes' into enemy territory, if you could get caught up against your will, if prices changed to excite the traders, changes in leadership, assassinations and, yes, the ability for individuals and player groups (with time and effort), to become known as 'players' in that (entirely optional) level of the game.

Anything, really, that isn't 'take this here and repeat for hours.

Even minor factions, which may happen with the missioning, should be more vibrant. Everything, in this early stage, is so.... static.

 

[Goose4291]

Which in turn, because of the way Eve works, causes them to group together in even bigger groups and kick sand in everyone's eyes continually, and simply by fortune of being big they keep kicking over sandcastles and kicking sand in people's eyes, being annoying, wardeccing, abusing every mechanic they can to annoy others, then said others leave because they do not enjoy that kind of behaviour, and the game loses players.
Nothing of what certain groups have done in Eve is directly illegal, it is all valid actions, but you need moderation on such things, and Eve last I checked haven't been great on that, though they have tried to limit wardeccing and similar, so big corps that can afford it, don't simply make small corps lose money.
Lets face it, leaving everything directly in player hands has lead Eve down a road that doesn't seem healthy, or at the very least only caters to a specific group of players, already within another group that would enjoy a game like Eve.
In Elite, players are one step removed from that, layering mechanics in between that can moderate stuff, this I would say is a good thing, the vast majority of behaviour remains available, including player freedom, but there is something to prevent rampant abuse, by design, rather then by afterthought as it seems with Eve.
Now, no, I am not saying Elite is perfect, but its approach seems more solid in my book. I used to play Eve and love it, pvp and pve, but it went down hill slowly but surely. Add to the way you needed to 'gain' experience in it, simply waiting while 'learning' and yeah....didn't work out right for me and demanded way....way more time, granted now people can just have a sub and plan a long line of training but still.

You're right it did lead to all the stuff we didn't like in Eve, but my point is I don't understand why a player base so vehemently opposed to Eve type mechanics wants player factions in the game, with Eve-lite group mechanics.

Personal opinion: I don't want player factions or groups as in universe entities, but if there are, I want there to be some sort of risks entailed that impede their politick becoming all encompassing, which is what we're slowly creeping towards.

 

[Roybe]

I'm not asking for a way to earn a living by doing PvP strictly, but to make PvP interactively functional.

I've written several extensive proposal on this forum that doesn't show the devs the "errors of their ways" in the slightest, but instead on focusing how to improve the game as a whole for all kinds of players.

The point here is that "PvP players" aren't the entirety of the problem, everyone is a part of the problem since no one's ideal vision of the game is identical.

This isn't about 'ideal visions' though. It's about those that want a Direct PvP-centric game, rather than what the devs have built. <shrug> In short, direct PvP stinks in this game, the costs are to low on the attackers side, and the costs are to high on the losers side. The PvE crowd loses on this fact alone...and will not engage the game fully to avoid this. This is by design.

 

[Siobhan]

The BGS is very flat and very static. I think we'd all be more invested and excited by Faction war if borders shifted quickly, if there were 'strikes' into enemy territory, if you could get caught up against your will, if prices changed to excite the traders, changes in leadership, assassinations and, yes, the ability for individuals and player groups (with time and effort), to become known as 'players' in that (entirely optional) level of the game.

Anything, really, that isn't 'take this here and repeat for hours.

Even minor factions, which may happen with the missioning, should be more vibrant. Everything, in this early stage, is so.... static.

We're about 2 years into a 10 year plan.
Don't write it off yet. Eve's been around for a while and the missions in that get repetitive too.
The BGS is what it is, but it's the same for us all, PvP or PvE, we're all vulnerable.

 

[Anopheles]

This isn't about 'ideal visions' though. It's about those that want a Direct PvP-centric game, rather than what the devs have built. <shrug> In short, direct PvP stinks in this game, the costs are to low on the attackers side, and the costs are to high on the losers side. The PvE crowd loses on this fact alone...and will not engage the game fully to avoid this. This is by design.

I don't know anyone who wants an PVP centric game. We just think that if you give us destructible ships with the ability to make other ships..... destructed then that part of the game should be fun and entertaining, especially as, if you really don't wan't to do it, you have about three or four inbuilt ways to avoid it easily.

 

[X-Terminator]

Much more likely most of Code have found themselves Blocked by frequent flying population there and got bored both of the PvE grind PLUS nobody to even see in their Instances. Inevitable.

 

[xondk]

You're right it did lead to all the stuff we didn't like in Eve, but my point is I don't understand why a player base so vehemently opposed to Eve type mechanics wants player factions in the game, with Eve-lite group mechanics.

Personal opinion: I don't want player factions or groups as in universe entities, but if there are, I want there to be some sort of risks entailed that impede their politick becoming all encompassing, which is what we're slowly creeping towards.

As long as it remains through minor npc factions as it is currently, and player groups are basically just a communication thing, and maybe a tag that they support/align with said faction, I really don't see much of an issue with it, basically, what I see would fit in Eve.

- in game group, with group management.
- group has tag on scanner (like npc's showing who they align to)
- group is able to see all other group members online without having to friend every single one manually.
- group has a communication system of sort, be it a channel, message board or such, in game.

That's all I can think of that is really needed, though it could be cool if there were in game bulletin/message boards that could be of various ranges
station only, system only, ## range only from system, galaxy wide?
Where people could post messages, local proclamations or such things that other players could see, made a suggestion about this a bit back here.

But yeah that's all I think it really needs and I don't set how it could harm the game as such, only benefit.

 

[Roybe]

I don't know anyone who wants an PVP centric game. We just think that if you give us destructible ships with the ability to make other ships..... destructed then that part of the game should be fun and entertaining, especially as, if you really don't wan't to do it, you have about three or four inbuilt ways to avoid it easily.

And that's my point Anopheles, the devs do not want it to be fun, entertaining, or anything else positive. It is rare and meaningful though. Rare in that no one wants to be the prey, and meaningful in that if they are they lose hours of gameplay time. The devs apparently want it to be an annoyance to those that will be the most annoyed. That's why it sucks. They have had over a year to improve PvP so that both sides could get some level of fun out of it. I gave up on PvP during the Lugh War...that is where it became painfully obvious what the devs were really building. A game where the movement of PVE trophies was going to be the way to PvP.

All the groups I kept in contact with, since then, have also adjusted their gameplay to this fact...or have left the game. Those people that want a deep PvP experience are not going to get it in this game. Either you play CQC...or you play in Open...neither is making the PvP players happy.

 

[stripealipe]

I don't know anyone who wants an PVP centric game. We just think that if you give us destructible ships with the ability to make other ships..... destructed then that part of the game should be fun and entertaining, especially as, if you really don't wan't to do it, you have about three or four inbuilt ways to avoid it easily.

Yep, this exactly. Our group may have many PVP players, but we get involved in every aspect of the game wherever possible. We don't want a purely PVP-centric game by any means.
It's an organic sandbox game that we want with a vibrant healthy eco-system full of players having some kind of relevance in the galaxy.

And this 'superiority' thing people keep talking about where PVP players and groups are concerned is unfounded. The galaxy should be a living beast, with trade, conflict, exploration, politics..
I don't know of anyone in our group or others that crave one specific thing from this game. We want all aspects to pull together so that it's more fun for all.

 

[Soliluna]

You know, even in the 18th century, piracy wasn't a viable career path as such, at least not for the vast majority.
In the late 20th and early 21st centuries, pirates off the coast of Somalia are hunted down by whichever navy gets there first.

It seems that in the 32nd century, it's already more viable than it ever was in RL, otherwise you'd have Farraguts and Majestics tripping over each other to kill you all off.

And as for the Code, well.. as Captain Barbossa said in Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl; "...And thirdly, the code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules."

It does seem probable considering the size of the bubble and vast "openness" of the galaxy though doesn't it?

I mean - the thing that really stopped Piracy in it's tracks was the fact that they had nowhere to hide - nowhere to make port. Once piracy started affecting people too much, the Europeans massively increased the focus on their Navies and "wiped" them out in less than 10 years, at least, for the most part. We don't have that problem in Elite, that there is nowhere to make port, so it seems fair that Piracy would be a real issue and that security in the most important sectors would be incredibly strong - to make Piracy almost impossible, while security in less important sectors and Anarchy systems would be incredibly weak.

Hopefully the next update addresses this so that traders who look for a less profitable but safer route can relax and enjoy higher security systems with far far fewer interdictions and those that want a profit and are not scared of a pirate or two can negotiate lower security systems.

 

[Cosmos]

And that's my point Anopheles, the devs do not want it to be fun, entertaining, or anything else positive. It is rare and meaningful though. Rare in that no one wants to be the prey, and meaningful in that if they are they lose hours of gameplay time. The devs apparently want it to be an annoyance to those that will be the most annoyed. That's why it sucks. They have had over a year to improve PvP so that both sides could get some level of fun out of it. I gave up on PvP during the Lugh War...that is where it became painfully obvious what the devs were really building. A game where the movement of PVE trophies was going to be the way to PvP.

All the groups I kept in contact with, since then, have also adjusted their gameplay to this fact...or have left the game. Those people that want a deep PvP experience are not going to get it in this game. Either you play CQC...or you play in Open...neither is making the PvP players happy.

You are speaking for yourself not everyone. I've never had a problem with gameplay jeopardy and always welcomed player attacks because it was the only thing that posed any challenge or created for interesting gameplay.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Either you play CQC...or you play in Open...neither is making the PvP players happy.

Thats weird, considering plenty of PvP players routinely post here to show how much fun they are having. But alright, if you say so, I guess they are just mistaken.

 

[Cosmos]

I don't know anyone who wants an PVP centric game.

Lots of people. Some of the most popular games are indeed PvP centric.

 

[Soliluna]

If you've never seen me, then you'll have very little idea who or what I know about... and of course, vice versa.

I do spend a lot of time on these forums though and interact with people, including one or two of the code, and other piratey types. I occasionally wander into open, but spend most of my time in private or solo; partly because I have a crappy net connection and have no doubt that if I played in open I'd have been accused of combat logging more than once, but mostly tbh, it's because I have better things to do with my time than play the interdiction mini game with PVP whiners. They all say that NPCs are easy mode, but at least they're unpredictable. Most player PVP types all fly identical builds ... black, stealth, rail gun... how boring - you either know how to defeat it or you don't. I prefer to see new (well, newish) things, do new activities... There is still so much I haven't seen nor done, that I wouldn't want to waste my time on something so boring, simple and monotonously repetitive as PVP.

So yeah, enjoy your delusions of superiority and I'll enjoy my game... and if we're both lucky, we can come back to this thread in a year or two, and giggle since we still won't have seen each other in game.

As someone who mostly plays games for PVP I have to agree, Elite is not a PVP game, it has some PVP elements and I happily engage in it whenever it rears its head but I don't seek it out. Elite is definitely not a game I would pick up for PVP, nor advertise for it - nor recommend for it.

Anyone who uses the argument that the game sucks because of its PVP elements I would agree, because it's not a PVP game. More of a PWP game, a co-op experience that might turn sour.

 

[Siobhan]

It does seem probable considering the size of the bubble and vast "openness" of the galaxy though doesn't it?

I mean - the thing that really stopped Piracy in it's tracks was the fact that they had nowhere to hide - nowhere to make port. Once piracy started affecting people too much, the Europeans massively increased the focus on their Navies and "wiped" them out in less than 10 years, at least, for the most part. We don't have that problem in Elite, that there is nowhere to make port, so it seems fair that Piracy would be a real issue and that security in the most important sectors would be incredibly strong - to make Piracy almost impossible, while security in less important sectors and Anarchy systems would be incredibly weak.

Hopefully the next update addresses this so that traders who look for a less profitable but safer route can relax and enjoy higher security systems with far far fewer interdictions and those that want a profit and are not scared of a pirate or two can negotiate lower security systems.

Quite, I can't find anything to disagree with.

Of course, with the Empire and Federation both being a bunch of corrupt expansionist warmongers, then I expect them to expand into a lot of the lower security and independent systems since it's easier than taking each others. The Alliance too, if they could ever find their butts to do so (they won't, they'll be steamrollered eventually). And when the Other arrives, be it Thargoids, Kzin, Kerbals or whatever, then the indies will be forced to seek shelter from one of the superpowers. I don't like the idea, but it is kind of inevitable.

Right now, 3302 is a golden age for piracy in the elite universe (game mechanics notwithstanding), but it can't last. Pirates would be driven further and further out as the superpowers expand into their territory. Maybe the former queen of the saggy black hole was a visionary...

 

[Goose4291]

As long as it remains through minor npc factions as it is currently, and player groups are basically just a communication thing, and maybe a tag that they support/align with said faction, I really don't see much of an issue with it, basically, what I see would fit in Eve.

- in game group, with group management.
- group has tag on scanner (like npc's showing who they align to)
- group is able to see all other group members online without having to friend every single one manually.
- group has a communication system of sort, be it a channel, message board or such, in game.

That's all I can think of that is really needed, though it could be cool if there were in game bulletin/message boards that could be of various ranges
station only, system only, ## range only from system, galaxy wide?
Where people could post messages, local proclamations or such things that other players could see, made a suggestion about this a bit back here.

But yeah that's all I think it really needs and I don't set how it could harm the game as such, only benefit.

I'd be up for all the above, as I said, I like the idea of more in game tools and mechanics for groups.

It's more the current groups 'Empire building' that my concerns are pointed at, particularly because a lot of it involves direct Dev involvement and very little grunt work on the groups side.

 

[Roybe]

You are speaking for yourself not everyone. I've never had a problem with gameplay jeopardy and always welcomed player attacks because it was the only thing that posed any challenge or created for interesting gameplay.

Not meaning to talk for everyone...there is obviously a small sub-group of players that enjoy this type of gameplay. I'm happy, you're happy!

The problem is manifold...but does break down to the above statement.

People do not like to be prey for personal reasons.

people do not want to PvP because there is no in-game reward for it..is slows down receiving the rewards that are there (this is my problem)

people do not have the time to keep grinding to replace ships and position

etc.

People do not like PvP in this game because the interaction is to harsh for 'the loser in the interaction'...and the devs do not care to fix it. Because, apparently, they do not want it to be a large part of the game. They have decided that PvP is groups fighting each other through PvE activities. As I said, this became very obvious through our interaction with then during the Lugh War...and the way the War was designed. So I continue to say that 'PvP sucks' and will always do so because the base design of the game is it is meant to.

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Thats weird, considering plenty of PvP players routinely post here to show how much fun they are having. But alright, if you say so, I guess they are just mistaken.

Really? There are that many people that think the PVP in this game is brilliant and there are huge groups of players working together to provide huge PvP opportunities within the game?

All the long term PvP group I am aware of have moved their focus from PvP to Pve...or have diminished their group in the game and move on to better PVP offerings...or have left completely.

Sorry...I'm not buying that. Most PvP people agree that PvP sucks in this game and needs huge improvements to make it worthwhile. None of which the devs are going to entertain.