Crime and punishment

There is no doubt in my mind that there are better skilled Cmdrs than myself, considering I'm a pirate, not a combat specialist. I can do the latter, but I don't focus on it.

However, where it isn't a conjecture is that anyone who stack up enough SCB/HRP and proper combat outfit equipment, a simple submit and high wake will void all skill there is. Skill is largely irrelevant in the success of destroying a Cmdr before one flees, it has a numerical limit. I can alpha as hard as I want, but if the enemy can tank for 15 second straight (which is easy to do), there is nothing I can do about it, absolutely nothing.

On top of that, don't forget FD doesn't punish combat logging seriously at all, therefore it remains an option many utilizes to avoid destruction.

Thus it is not a conjecture but reasoned argument that aftermath consequence of a ship's destruction is largely ineffective.

Since you enjoy bantering over semantics I will not continue in trying to dissuade your opinion of what others might or might not do.

Frankly, I am only trying to make a suggestion. If you don't agree with it, fine.

In closing, just because "anyone" can doesn't mean "everyone" will. And that is factual.

Based on my in-depth experience. :D
 
A game mechanic that stops you from playing the game. Nope. Won't happen.

How about improved System NPC Security and a way to call them to your aid. The better the Security Level in the system the more overwhelming they are. The better your standing with the Majors and Minors the quicker they respond. At really high level of standing with a major power you get the ability to request a major-league npc escort.
 
Since you enjoy bantering over semantics I will not continue in trying to dissuade your opinion of what others might or might not do.

Frankly, I am only trying to make a suggestion. If you don't agree with it, fine.

In closing, just because "anyone" can doesn't mean "everyone" will. And that is factual.

Based on my in-depth experience. :D

And to object to that critique, the only people that will suffer from your proposed system are inexperienced or accidental offenders of the law, not the population that you actually want to punish. I believe that is counterproductive in the most literal sense.

Edit:

To clarify, I think it's clear that we all know the most effective and experienced violators of law do the most damage, thus we need a system that punish said population, not the minor infractions. Not to mention the skill ceiling of becoming efficient at running away is very very low.
 
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A game mechanic that stops you from playing the game. Nope. Won't happen.

How about improved System NPC Security and a way to call them to your aid. The better the Security Level in the system the more overwhelming they are. The better your standing with the Majors and Minors the quicker they respond. At really high level of standing with a major power you get the ability to request a major-league npc escort.

If that was the case, or if they implemented it, I would agree. With 1 teenie tiny little suggestion:

The "strength" and/or experience plays into it. A new to the game Cmdr in his sidewinder is going to need the wrath of (insert deity here) to rain down on the situation. Maybe along the lines of what happens when you are in a crowded res site and shoot an innocent. When that happens to me, the radar looks like I just sneezed a bloody nose on it,,,,,,, :)
 

Majinvash

Banned
Just remember ANY system they put in that will actually allow bounty hunters and do gooders to actually kill anyone who isn't a complete noob or flying a terribly designed PVP ship. Works both ways, meaning we can and WILL use them on traders.

Which in turn will get nerfed to hell by the screaming non PVP masses, who then start to complain that every situation isn't escapable. The word fair will be thrown about.

Just look at ANY post I have ever made about how OP the Braben escape drive ( HW ) is and just wait for Robert M to post the same droll about working as intended and everyone else to say that you just have to leave in an escape route for everyone, always and forever

The only effect the new crime and punishment is likely to have on me is forcing me to jump systems to rearm before flying back to continue whatever rein of terror i was involved in.

There is literally no risk in ED unless you screwup or are incredibly unlucky. Skill is a minor concern.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open
 
Just remember ANY system they put in that will actually allow bounty hunters and do gooders to actually kill anyone who isn't a complete noob or flying a terribly designed PVP ship. Works both ways, meaning we can and WILL use them on traders.

Which in turn will get nerfed to hell by the screaming non PVP masses, who then start to complain that every situation isn't escapable. The word fair will be thrown about.

Just look at ANY post I have ever made about how OP the Braben escape drive ( HW ) is and just wait for Robert M to post the same droll about working as intended and everyone else to say that you just have to leave in an escape route for everyone, always and forever

The only effect the new crime and punishment is likely to have on me is forcing me to jump systems to rearm before flying back to continue whatever rein of terror i was involved in.

There is literally no risk in ED unless you screwup or are incredibly unlucky. Skill is a minor concern.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open

Well, there we have it. Maji tells us he will always look for a way to work the system so he has someone to shoot at. Fair enough. That makes population segregation, which is what other MMORPGs use Pve vs PvP servers, the only real solution. Which is probably why other MMORPG still use it after all this time. The "wolves" get to shoot at other people that don't mind getting shot at (and should be challenging, cause that's what you're really after right) and the "Sheep" can't be subjected to unwanted combat because the game doesn't allow it. And the Wheel in the sky keeps on turning.....
 
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Good point. And yes, you don't want players to leave the game. To that point: How many players have left (or will leave) the game because of buttheads vs how many of said buttheads will leave the game because they can't have fun? I have heard it said that the amount of buttheads in the game is small so,,,,,,,, ?

I do take (and sympathise with) your point, but the answer is probably "not as many as went to solo or mobius, or who left because the game is essentially an unfinished project and gets boring quickly". As galling as it is when the pro-pvp grojps say it, we DO have other gameplay alternatives, some of which still include social aspects. Of course none of them are as good as a well crafted crime and consequence system, but they ARE alternatives that pvp-ers DON'T have. Then remember that PvP a declared intended part of the game, so punishing by preventing them from playing for taking part in it would be over the top. What the game's missing is an effective law and order aspect, not a method of "removal of undesirables". It's a very difficult line to walk that Braben's decided on, but we're stuck with it now... with a game that's trying to be all things to all men.
 
Just remember ANY system they put in that will actually allow bounty hunters and do gooders to actually kill anyone who isn't a complete noob or flying a terribly designed PVP ship. Works both ways, meaning we can and WILL use them on traders.

Which in turn will get nerfed to hell by the screaming non PVP masses, who then start to complain that every situation isn't escapable. The word fair will be thrown about.

Just look at ANY post I have ever made about how OP the Braben escape drive ( HW ) is and just wait for Robert M to post the same droll about working as intended and everyone else to say that you just have to leave in an escape route for everyone, always and forever

The only effect the new crime and punishment is likely to have on me is forcing me to jump systems to rearm before flying back to continue whatever rein of terror i was involved in.

There is literally no risk in ED unless you screwup or are incredibly unlucky. Skill is a minor concern.

Majinvash
The Voice of Open
I hear you, but the point of my post was to suggest a way to make the person who just shoots unwanted Cmdr's for the lulz and then says that the person whose newbwinder/whatever they squashed with their Alphaconda did't lose anything but some of their time to get it back.

The squasher isn't out anything while the squashee is out their time. I am just looking for the possibility of the billionaire squasher losing some of their time as a result. When someone comes along and makes them the squashee, that's all.

And yes, I know it will not solve the entire problem. But it will solve some of this.

I am not sure how you think you could find a way to use this for yourself???
 
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You know what I'd like to see?

if I get a fine from a specific authority, below a set level, any bounty claims I have in favour of said authority should automatically be applied against fines with them.
 
I do take (and sympathise with) your point, but the answer is probably "not as many as went to solo or mobius, or who left because the game is essentially an unfinished project and gets boring quickly". As galling as it is when the pro-pvp grojps say it, we DO have other gameplay alternatives, some of which still include social aspects. Of course none of them are as good as a well crafted crime and consequence system, but they ARE alternatives that pvp-ers DON'T have. Then remember that PvP a declared intended part of the game, so punishing by preventing them from playing for taking part in it would be over the top. What the game's missing is an effective law and order aspect, not a method of "removal of undesirables". It's a very difficult line to walk that Braben's decided on, but we're stuck with it now... with a game that's trying to be all things to all men.

Your points are good Sandman. And while I do understand that my suggestions might be too heavy handed for some, maybe a modified version of this or the "prison" idea (I do like that suggestion) that was posted earlier in the thread could be used.
 
Actually i would go for something completely different: a notority system. It just would add up all player kills you do. The higher the count, the more the police would be out there for you and stations will disallow you to dock. Of course this would only apply to systems which have any significant law enforcement. Empty systems and anarchy systems would still be nice homes for those people, but anything other system would be troublesome.

To also make things matter, player on the polices list won't just be chased by mall cops on segways. Once the counter reaches a certain level, the equivalent of a SWAT should be out there for them.

To go into more details, i would build the system like this:
  • You have a counter for players you have killed. This counter goes up whenever you kill a player unless certain circumstances are met.
  • The counter does not go up if the kill player has the option "report crimes" switched off. If this is switched off, the player has agreed to PvP and is fair game.
  • The counter does not up if both involved players were in the same wing.
  • The counter does not go up if both involved players were members of different factions in powerplay.
  • The counter does not go up if the killed player also is above the threshold (see below) and thus also is marked as criminal. Killing a criminal never should be a crime.
  • The system has a save threshold of three kills. If you are below that, you still are considered "clean". It is a game, accidents do happen, but if you rack up five player kills quickly, it must be intentional. If it is not, you are a terrible pilot and still a threat to everybody around, so it's still a good idea to contain you.
  • As accidents happen and in a long career you still might rack up more accidental player kills, the count is reduced by one for every passing week. The combination of the first two aspects should give more than enough freedom for accidents, as i think that most players have not even killed one other player by accident yet. At the same time, a griefer who can do one kill a week without being punished can't really grief that much.
  • Deaths do not reduce the counter. Just because you switched to your sidewinder and suicided doesn't make you less of a threat to the public, so the counter stays.
  • Bonus: the counter is for your account. Even if you wipe your save, your new commander will start with a criminal record. You are a griefer, deal with it.
  • The higher the counter is, the stronger the police response will be. If you just barely are over it, you might just regularily be interdicted by police in eagles and vipers, which you can survive and outrun. But if you reach really high numbers, you should expect to be interdicted by the equivalent of a SWAT team, which could consist of half a dozen Anacondas, along with another 20 ships of different kinds. You either are very good, or stay outside of non-anarchistic systems then. [A good pilot will still survive this, even if the NPCs will be gods of interdicting. But being constantly harassed by the police should get annoying and drive those players out of "secure" systems. ]


Playing as a criminal would not only still be possible, it suddenly also would feel like that. The necessary anarchistic systems to hide, repair and upgrade exist, you'd just have to pick your location and routes more carefully than the average player. You would have a very hard time in and around traditional beginner systems, while still having enough space to do stuff. You still could be the tough criminal you want to be, you just would also have to play that way. So it would weed out the wannabe-criminals, while the competent ones could even take pride in being able to overcome this challenge and survive under these conditions.

For those who can't handle the system: You can wait a few weeks till your counter is low enough, or you can buy a new account where the counter is still zero. Thank you for your financial donation for the game, i hope you have learned your lesson and play appropriately now. [And no, if we won't shed a tear if you leave. Griefing has already cost the game a number of players, who else could've been paying customers for paintjobs, horizon and future expansions. From a financial point of view, loosing a griefer is a gain for the game. Good riddance. ]

On a PS: Yes, i am very well aware that this suggestion is very much based on the fact that we are playing a game. But i also dare to point out that there is a history of suggestions which would very well suit the world of this game, the original of this thread included, which still are rejected due to this game actually being a game.
 
That sounds awfully familiar, I wonder why...

Oh that's why...

Hmm, i wasn't aware of that, but i am not surprised that others already came to similar conclusions. It just amuses me that the only actual player pirate agrees.

Sorry for my sarcasm, but during my time in Open i never saw a single of those pirate players, who actually wanted some of my cargo. They all just interdicted and tried to kill, usually successfully. And for those pirates, who just go grab cargo without going for the kill, my system also would be perfect.
 
Well, apparently it's all going to change under 2.1 - although FD haven't released any specifics. If I were asked to guess i'd say they'll probably just have more, faster, more dangerous police in safe systems. And i'm fine with that. I'm not sure it needs any new mechanisms, it just needs the existing ones rebalanced a bit.
 
Well, apparently it's all going to change under 2.1 - although FD haven't released any specifics. If I were asked to guess i'd say they'll probably just have more, faster, more dangerous police in safe systems. And i'm fine with that. I'm not sure it needs any new mechanisms, it just needs the existing ones rebalanced a bit.

As long as any consequence for griefplay can easily be avoided by suiciding in a sidewinder, while the victims have all the risk and all the damage, all other changes are irrelevant.
 
Murder, piracy, killing players just for fun and all that is part of the game... I dont like it but this is the way it is. Would be nice with some sort of warning though. Sort of constantly Red mark players that are often agressive to other players. It should be on their record that they have shoot down many players before. Maybe also a criminal record for players that can be accessed after scanning or so. :rolleyes:
 
Murder, piracy, killing players just for fun and all that is part of the game...

The suggestions made here, most of them, allow all of that. The only difference we ask for is: these actions also should have consequences. If you kill many players, expect to also be attacked on sight (by a vastly superior force) if you enter systems with sufficient security. Murder as much as you want, as long as you hide out in Anarchy systems, but expect retribution if you turn up somewhere else.
 
The suggestions made here, most of them, allow all of that. The only difference we ask for is: these actions also should have consequences. If you kill many players, expect to also be attacked on sight (by a vastly superior force) if you enter systems with sufficient security. Murder as much as you want, as long as you hide out in Anarchy systems, but expect retribution if you turn up somewhere else.

And that is the bottom line. Whether you agree with my initial proposal, the prison system, or a hybrid of those and other suggestions that has been made, SOMETHING has to balance the equation.
 
The suggestions made here, most of them, allow all of that. The only difference we ask for is: these actions also should have consequences. If you kill many players, expect to also be attacked on sight (by a vastly superior force) if you enter systems with sufficient security. Murder as much as you want, as long as you hide out in Anarchy systems, but expect retribution if you turn up somewhere else.

I'm fine with this. Being open to retribution from players and NPCs makes things more exciting and adds to the experience of role-playing an outlaw.
 
A 1m Cr bounty would be 11 days though .... you can't stop someone playing for using mechanics perfectly allowed in the game .... yes we have a crime/punishment inbalance but completely blocking them is not gonna fly.

Limiting to solo for 11 days .... might be a doable option .... akin to purgatory :)

Good point but where do you get 11 days from.
Lol
I was thinking a little more rl.
10 years for 1 murder.
Natural life for more than 1.
I haven't heard of many serial killers getting parole recently.

Maybe the system from the original elite would be better as in if you are bad enough to get to fugitive you better watch your back.
 
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