Why small ship maneuverability is useless Pt.1

[Vasious]

Actually the Eagle you fly in Elite Dangerous is the Eagle MK II.
And according to the description, it is outdated because " It has the distinction of being the only ship that has been so successful versions have been built for both the Federation and Imperial navies. This role has been superseded by the respective navies' short range fighter programmes, but the Eagle still sees extensive service across human space.".

In the case of the Federation, that would be the Vulture (since that is the smallest ship Core Dynamics makes).
In the case of the empire, it would be the Imperial Eagle and Imperial Courier (The two smallest ships that Gutamaya makes).

What are your sources for when these ships first saw production?

I know the Eagle is is the Mk.II
I was using the Mk.I as it is the oldest of the three but still younger than the others.
The Elite Manual for the age of the Cobra, Adder, Sidewinder, Anaconda, Fer de Lance and Python
The Frontier 2 Manual for the Eagle which is a new design when the game is set in 3200
The FEE2 manual available online seems to have in-service dates as well which line up

I wouldn't call the Imperial Eagle and Imperial courier or Vultures as Short Range, hence my feeling it is the non jump Capable (CQC) Fighters that replaced them.

 

[Vasious]

Then explain the imperial fighter, imperial eagle, courier, and majestic class interdictor.
All of which aren't trade ships.
A doctrinal difference between them is all fine and dandy the US is a global trade hub which also has a strong military.
The Chinese also have a formidable military.
The British Empire was also rebound for a sizable and strong navy.
every big economic power in history has also had a strong military, the argument that this is a time of peace is also not accurate. There are conflict zones all over the bubble and infighting between powers.
By design is the strongest argument that said all Imperial ships are more expensive than the civilian or Federation counterparts this cost affords them to be both luxurious, and effective as demonstrated by the Imperial eagle and majestic class interdictor.

I can't accept a doctrinal, design, or peacetime reasoning for the Empire to have such an inept military presence.

The Empire has ships that are for Soft Diplomacy, a show of Majesty as much as a show of Force.
I never used the Cold-War/Peace time as a reason.

The Federal Navy is the military arm of the Federation.
The Commercial side is handled by the various Corporations

The Empire however has a the 1000 Senators all vying for Power, their fleets of ships need to be their workhorses for War, Diplomacy and Commerce all that the same time.
Saying that Imperial/Gutamaya ships are not solely focus of being warships was not a statement to say All the Gutamaya line are not warships.

The SRIF is a Parasite Fighter
The Imperial Eagle is a Gutuamaya variant for the original Falcoun Delacy Eagle Mk.I
The Courier isn't a trader but seems to be what the label says and is a luxury personal transport
The Majestic is smaller than the Farragut and seems to be less well arms, with the 3 Hyper accelerators and numerous Point defences Plasma repeaters, vs the Farragut with many more cannons and missile batteries.

The Farragut can carry a Squadron of Corvettes and many more F63 Condors
We don't know if the Majestic can carry Cutters

 

[Kestril]

Good anaylisis by the OP. As of now the only way to continue to keep firing at a large ship while dodging their reverse-turn arcs enough to stand a chance is to use a turret.

I do think this issue needs to be addressed to make smaller ships viable, if disadvantaged instead of completely useless outside of the hands of few pilots.

 

[xondk]

BUT a one-man fighter with a ASM CAN kill a destroyer. Don't you Brits remember the HMS Sheffield? Killed by an Exocet fired by a Super Etendard? Small fighter killed big ship. Yes different medium (air/sea vs air/air or sea/sea) but very analogous to ED and the small fighter/larger ship battle.

While this is true, you have to remember the flipside, yes small ships were dangerous to big ships, but it isn't like the big ships can't defend themselves quite well, but of course it only takes one good hit by a small ship to get the big ship.
But there's a few big differences here between RL and a game.
Most importantly.

Many people feel that their small ship should be 'able' to kill a big ship, entirely disregarding possible skill difference in pilots and advantage the big ship does have, they want to be the one that 'can' do it. Which right now they 'can' it is just quite difficult, yet that's hard for some to accept. There's a reason why even in RL you take note when a small thing killed a big, mostly because, it doesn't really happen that often because generally the big thing has the advantage.
And lets face it, when small fighters or such attacked big ships, they weren't doing it alone, they were doing it in squadrons, which is around 20 ships.
Then there's bombers, of which Elite doesn't really have any equivalent of yet, maybe stealth ships? but they weren't risk free either, it was great risk, I am sure someone can find the statistics that show average losses on bombing runs and whatnot during ww2, and again numbers made the difference, a sole bomber against a sole ship? or enemy that is aware/scanning surroundings?
And at this point I'm guessing someone is going to be "But what about the atom bombs, those were single bombers!" yes, yes it was, but also remember the technology back then, yes now there's stealth bombers and whatnot, but even those aren't risk free and those bombers are highly specialized, they aren't going to be dog fighting.
So yeah, maybe some 'bomber' like ships could be created, that are based around a bombing run, and those could have an advantage in hit power but also very weak defences?

My main point is though just because a small ship 'can' do something doesn't mean you, me, or a lot of others 'can' do it, maybe in a lucky or planned run, sure, and it certainly doesn't mean big ships were defenceless against them.

 

[Troa Barton]

The Empire has ships that are for Soft Diplomacy, a show of Majesty as much as a show of Force.
I never used the Cold-War/Peace time as a reason.

The Federal Navy is the military arm of the Federation.
The Commercial side is handled by the various Corporations

The Empire however has a the 1000 Senators all vying for Power, their fleets of ships need to be their workhorses for War, Diplomacy and Commerce all that the same time.
Saying that Imperial/Gutamaya ships are not solely focus of being warships was not a statement to say All the Gutamaya line are not warships.

The SRIF is a Parasite Fighter
The Imperial Eagle is a Gutuamaya variant for the original Falcoun Delacy Eagle Mk.I
The Courier isn't a trader but seems to be what the label says and is a luxury personal transport
The Majestic is smaller than the Farragut and seems to be less well arms, with the 3 Hyper accelerators and numerous Point defences Plasma repeaters, vs the Farragut with many more cannons and missile batteries.

The Farragut can carry a Squadron of Corvettes and many more F63 Condors
We don't know if the Majestic can carry Cutters

I was being preemptive with the peacetime argument.

Soft deplomacy is indeed something imperial ships also employ but not solely refering to the cutters description.

"The Imperial Cutter fulfils a similar role as the corvette for the Imperial Navy. The design philosophy reflects Imperial sensibilities as it is faster and more elegant than the corvette, but doesn't quite match it in firepower. As with other Imperial warships the cutter is also used for projecting soft power, via diplomatic missions and support for friendly powers. It is possible, although rare, for a well connected client or patron to own one of these ships. Like the corvette it can deploy two small fighter class ships."

I will highlight the areas important here.
fulfills a similar role as the corvette for the Imperial navy" the corvette is entirely combat centric

"doesn't quite match it in firepower" very true but it is a huge difference in firepower and much less able to bring that firepower to bare. It is significantly less maneuverable, has one less huge hardpoint, has a power plant deficit due to the extra power needed by the thrusters and shields, and has an undersized power distributor. Doesn't quite is one hell of an understatement.

"As with other Imperial warships the cutter is ALSO used for projecting soft power VIA diplomatic missions and support for friendly powers" my point here being that it is labeled as a warship similar to the corvette that is also used diplomatically via (meaning the method of which they accomplish this task) diplomatic missions and support for friendly powers. If that support happens to be military support those friendly powers are out of luck.. Sure support can be in the form of trade and supplies but the corvette also has an impressive hold the second highest in the game at the moment. The point here is that Imperial warships can also be used for soft power not exclusively for it, again going back to their cost per unit and being designed to accomplish both.

senators that may use a warship as their mobile office are likely to have it customized much like Air Force One or business mogul's and their private jets. It wouldn't make sense to have the entire military fleet flown by soldiers to be mobile diplomacy centers first and warships second.

The courier being labeled as personal transport is kind of the nail in the coffin here. If a personal transport ship is that effective in combat what the heck went wrong with the clipper and cutter? Personally I'd move to have the Imperial Inquisition look into the Gutamaya engineers and top brass looking for a traitor. If these are to be used as warships clearly they have been infiltrated by an enemy of the empire and sabotaged.

 

[noldunar]

I think we have to differentiate between PvE and PvP (as always):

In PvE:

In PvE I think small ships are perfectly fine and very capable. I got two accounts. On my main account I own an A-rated FdL and an A-rated Imperial Clipper HOWEVER I still mostly fly around in small ships. My favorites are the two Vipers, the Cobra MK III, the Diamondback Scout and the Imperial Courier.

Why? Because they are all very fun to fly, you can do everything in them that big ships can do, it might not be as quick or efficient grinding bounties in a RES site but for my taste it is still fast enough and you don't have to worry about anything. The classic A-rated combat Viper III, which is around 3 million credits, has a rebuy so low that I don't worry about anything. I attack wings, I attack Anacondas (remember, I am only talking PvE here), I keep fighting when the shields are down. When I leave the RES site I have earned around 1.5 million credits and go back to reload and rearm. I just made 10 times the rebuy of my ship. This gives you a lot of freedom and you can do what you want when you want because you don't have to worry about your balance and rebuy value. Repair costs are dirt cheap as well.

In my opinion, a little knowledge of basic combat maneuvers (using FA-off to assist in a turn, using thrusters to keep an advantageous position, adjusting your throttle and pips as needed) enables combat ships like Vipers and Eagles or combat fitted multi-role vessels to tackle anything the current AI can throw at you. No rebalancing is needed.

PvP:

In PvP it is a little more complex. Here, in my opinion, is skill the deciding factor, and this is as it should be. And the more "inferior" your ship is in regard to your opponent, so much more skillfull than the other pilot you have to be. But I have seen enough YouTube videos of pro PvP players to convince me, that (almost) every small ship, at least definetly the Vipers and the Diamondback Scout, are viable in PvP with the right skills.
Examples:

-All PvP videos from Commander Cillit Bang in his Viper. Honestly, I think this guy is amazing. He takes down Vultures, Clippers, FdLs, all in his Viper. Of course he gets nailed as well every so often but his success rate seems quite high, at least judging by his videos. If you try to duplicate his main tactic (reversing while rolling, keeping a distance of 2.5 to 2.9 Km, double chaff and constant pulse laser fire) you will see how difficult it is to pull this off (staying on target all the time with fixed weapons while rolling at that distance). I tried against the AI and realized I need to practice A LOT to reach this level of skill.

-The last video from Isinona (Going out with a bang). He fights in a Viper MK IV against an Elite ranked player in a FdL and manages a draw, the FdL withdraws after being reduced to below 30% hull.

-The stealth fighter videos of Commander Na'Qan

These are just a few examples. Long story short: If you have the skill and knowledge, you can win against superior ships.

I think what annoys those complaining is the fact that it requires dedication, time and effort to get that good and that only a few can be bothered to do that.

 

[BROKEN SHADOW]

Who is Cillit Bang?

 

[xaisis]

I don really see a problem with this.

There is already a counter tactic to this, it is called wings.

 

[Maelthor]

I think big ships should have terrible terrible agility, and be more or less forced to look at using turrets to defend themselves against anything other than another large ship.

Having said that, I think turrets need a buff.

 

[Soopyyy]

The small ships an already out maneuver the large ones, if the pilot is any sort of decent. I would be in favour of buffing the speed of small ships considerably so that they can just run away though. An Eagle should have to work VERY hard to destroy a Corvette...

 

[Mangal Oemie]

I am not sure I understand OP's premise. The smaller ships are fine, but the situation in the diagram should never occur, when there is an option at all.

Before any shot is fired, make sure the small ship is behind the big ship and close, as close as possible. Now, start firing, and stick like glue, and make sure the bigger ships never faces you ever so can't target you. It'll take some flying and patience, but in my Viper and later my Vulture I could do this to any NPC ship with 100% hull and 3 rings shield.

My FdL takes a lot more focus and attention to fly - even if it kills much quicker - and up against a FAS can be a gamble. But, you can easily take on a wing of 2-3 NPC small ships in a FdL.

Nothing wrong with the small ships.

 

[Soopyyy]

FAS and FDL probably don't really constitute small ships.

 

[Mangal Oemie]

FAS and FDL probably don't really constitute small ships.

Correct: they were my examples of bigger ships. I was trying to contrast the Viper and Vulture against the FdL, not imply they were similar.

 

[Zeta Legion]

This thread is two months old. Way to necro.

 

[Soopyyy]

Correct: they were my examples of bigger ships. I was trying to contrast the Viper and Vulture against the FdL, not imply they were similar.

Oh, my apologies. I misread.

 

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Oh, my apologies. I misread.

Look at the bright side. FDev's finally taken a stance on defining what exactly are considered small ships. Anything with Class 3 thrusters and under.

 

[Kaocraft]

Answer:
You can't keep your back to more than one ship at a time if they are any kind of decent pilot, and you can't effectively target more than one ship.

Get a wing and the large ship has to deal with 3 ships shooting him, while the one he wants to shoot flies out of range until the big dog tries to change targets.

Rinse, repeat, until the large ship explodes or leaves.

Your solution is "be more than one person"

 

[Kylby36]

The bigger ships shouldn't necessarily be better just because they cost more... There does need to be some balance based on skill.

Elite Dangerous is about being what you want to be... But what if you want to be a badass Eagle pilot? Oh wait you can't because you're made of paper and your weapons take 5 minutes just to take down a vulture's shields. (Not exaggerating. there's a video.)

I understand that you shouldn't be able to take down a large ship with ease in an eagle... But damage model should be changed a bit. It feels too tanky.

 

[Darrett]

The bigger ships shouldn't necessarily be better just because they cost more... There does need to be some balance based on skill.

Elite Dangerous is about being what you want to be... But what if you want to be a badass Eagle pilot? Oh wait you can't because you're made of paper and your weapons take 5 minutes just to take down a vulture's shields. (Not exaggerating. there's a video.)

I understand that you shouldn't be able to take down a large ship with ease in an eagle... But damage model should be changed a bit. It feels too tanky.

I don't think a single Eagle should ever be able to take on certain enemies. The Vulture should probably be the upper limit, barring something bizarre (like a trading Anaconda that refuses to leave the interdiction instance). I'd prefer it if they treated ship size in a bit more of a black and white fashion- more expensive ships within a category have more options for loadouts and access to weapons to help them bridge the gap somewhat to one ship size above them, but there are trade-offs for doing so. So while a Vulture might use two Class 3 Lasers to help it deal more damage and overcome the shields of a large ship, those lasers should have a drawback (slower firing speed, think the railgun charge time, or less accuracy) making the vulture have trouble dealing with other small ships. Selecting a specific ship within a size category should be like selecting a class in an RPG, with specializations being loadouts for that ship.

 

[ShadowWolf Kell]

I don't think a single Eagle should ever be able to take on certain enemies.

That was a common argument in Battlestar Galactic Online. Big ship pilots didn't like us fighter pilots getting into and sticking in their blind spots and pew pewing away at them for 10 minutes. All they had to do was jump away, or actually mount point defense weapons better suited to attacking small ships.

My opinion on the matter is the same as it was in Battlestar Galactica Online. If a player in a small ship can get in close and stay in a blind spot, then they should be allowed to do so. If they do destroy a big ship like a Vette, then it's the Vette pilot's own fault for being a moron and sticking around as long as they did. Just my 2 cents.