The unavoidable poll: PvP vs PvE!

[GluttonyFang]

Yes it's an artificial condition... and so what? Computers, air travel, modern medicine, and literacy are also all artificial but you don't rail against those, you're just using that as an excuse to justify playing at the expense of others' enjoyment. Society and civilisation ARE artificial, and they place the artificial constructs of law on their members to control the actions of the "wolves" through fear of consequences IN ORDER to make it livable for the "sheep"... and they do it by employing "guard dogs" and "shepherds". This is what's been missing in the game... consequences that still allow wolves to function while being serious enough to make them pause and consider if the potential gain is worth the likely negative consequence.

I don't think I wrote anywhere that I reject society as a whole, I hold skepticism, and that's all.

No. It's the shepherds and guard dogs that determine just how much oppourtunity the wolves have to hunt, and what percentage of the flock they're able to protect. The wolves sit on the edges of society just outside the light of the campfires sneaking in and taking advantage of lapses in security to prey upon the weak, NOT in the upper, decisive regions. It's only in the wild, untamed regions that the predators control the environment.

There is this thing called wolves in sheep's clothing that I'm sure everyone familiar with. Well, in this case, in guard dog's clothing.

Despotism is no longer created by torment like the old days and now democratically generated.

Problem is, from a game perspective, that the entire galaxy is acting like the untamed wilderness when there are clearly areas that should be acting like policed civilisations (it even states this in their descriptions when it describes their supposed security levels). When the actions of the wolves are appropriately tempered by the shepherds and guard dogs, THEN the game will be balanced but right now there's simply no reason to NOT be a wolf which means that the wolf packs are over crowded and the sheep have gotten sick of the abuse and have all buggered off to a wolf-free zone.

Indeed, hence why I wrote the proposals:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=235327

 

[Mengy]

How do you balance it all out? Do you have any idea?


We can create a high-tier NPC response, ban people from stations, cater to the calls for justice from the PvE crowd all day but where is the balance?


Using your basic rules concept: You're a player flying for Hudson. You enter into the system I support on a mission to help prop up Hudson expansion efforts. My faction is opposing/undermining said efforts. I kill you. Should I now be banned from my home station for killing an unwanted player in cold blood? I could run you off, sure, but that's not nearly enough punishment to keep you from coming back. So you lose a few million credits (maybe), I lose my home system even though I'm playing the game the way it was meant to be played, per FDev statement.

It's actually pretty easy to balance out. Opposing factions mean you are free to kill other players of said faction without punishment. War is war, and if you pledge to a faction then you are open game for attack. Killing wanted commanders is also fair game. But killing "innocents", unpledged commanders or NPC's who are just going about their daily business, that would be considered murder and thus the penalties. And the station bans would only be from lawful stations (which is admittedly most of them), pirate controlled and independent stations wouldn't care of course.


It's not meant to keep the murderer from playing the game but only to make their lives much harder, to have the galaxy react to their choice to be a criminal, and to make that choice have consequences that is as much of an inconvenience to them as dying is for that trader / miner / explorer they just murdered.


It's what laws in any modern society is about, and the universe of Elite should be no different. We'd see a lot more people in open play if it was.

 

[Deadspin]

Remind me not to try to debate you if we ever start to butt heads together, Gluttony.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

It's actually pretty easy to balance out. Opposing factions mean you are free to kill other players of said faction without punishment. War is war, and if you pledge to a faction then you are open game for attack. Killing wanted commanders is also fair game. But killing "innocents", unpledged commanders or NPC's who are just going about their daily business, that would be considered murder and thus the penalties. And the station bans would only be from lawful stations (which is admittedly most of them), pirate controlled and independent stations wouldn't care of course.

It's not meant to keep the murderer from playing the game but only to make their lives much harder, to have the galaxy react to their choice to be a criminal, and to make that choice have consequences that is as much of an inconvenience to them as dying is for that trader / miner / explorer they just murdered.

It's what laws in any modern society is about, and the universe of Elite should be no different. We'd see a lot more people in open play if it was.

As someone who doesn't take part in PP but has worked to prevent expansions into Frog space by powers we don't support, how do you feel about my non-pledge character killing pledged characters actively supporting said Power expansion into non-power space (as in, parts of space where there is no power)?

 

[GluttonyFang]

Remind me not to try to debate you if we ever start to butt heads together, Gluttony.

Why not, it's very enjoyable and a great exercise of the mind, a good time to examine yourself by using others as a mirror. It's not as good as in real life, but what can you do when you're stuck in an office/grading 100 level introductory courses' papers that make you wonder why can't freshmen take gen-ed more seriously...

*Chuckles in the background*

 

[Deadspin]

It could be worse.

You could be stuck in an office sifting through 4,000+ lines and 27 columns of maintenance and failure data, looking for misspelled words and statements that don't belong after checking the math on all items. At least I have Pandora to help maintain my sanity.

 

[GluttonyFang]

It could be worse.

You could be stuck in an office sifting through 4,000+ lines and 27 columns of maintenance and failure data, looking for misspelled words and statements that don't belong after checking the math on all items. At least I have Pandora to help maintain my sanity.

So glad I only made one of my majors in computer science for the fun instead of making it a job.

Well, they do say that the ability to debug is sometimes more valuable than the ability to write programs.

 

[Deadspin]

So glad I only made one of my majors in computer science for the fun instead of making it a job.

Well, they do say that the ability to debug is sometimes more valuable than the ability to write programs.

Oh how I wish I were simply debugging code.
I'm actually reviewing the failure rate data for a helicopter that's being built, going through the data provided by the manufacturer in an Excel spreadsheet.
That being said, I know nothing about code/scripting/etc outside of what I learned from building missions and configuring mods in ARMA 3. Somehow that's more than anyone in my building so I am also the poor guy responsible for debugging our bulk data dump scripts. It's been.. fun.. I figure it's what I'll go to school for later this year if I ever get off of my butt and decide to start school again at least.

TR: I've seen some amazing ideas thrown around in the pve/pvp threads. I just wish Frontier would give us at least a partial response on what they're actually considering vice the list of "potential" features that have been thrown out so far. Maybe even an opinion piece from on high detailing how they feel about the current state of pve and pvp in the game.

 

[Mengy]

Why not, it's very enjoyable and a great exercise of the mind, a good time to examine yourself by using others as a mirror. It's not as good as in real life, but what can you do when you're stuck in an office/grading 100 level introductory courses' papers that make you wonder why can't freshmen take gen-ed more seriously...

*Chuckles in the background*

Eh, you could be stuck in a corporate America engineering department, where you get to "debate" with lots of Dilberts every single day. Fun.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Eh, you could be stuck in a corporate America engineering department, where you get to "debate" with lots of Dilberts every single day. Fun.

Nah, social science is more fun to me than hard sciences.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

I'm actually reviewing the failure rate data for a helicopter that's being built

Oh dear, that's already too much hard science for me to take.

*Shuts the blinds*

*Chuckles in the background*

 

[Sandmann]

Remind me not to try to debate you if we ever start to butt heads together, Gluttony.

He's actually a lot of fun, just don't try to use morality or consience to make your argument.

 

[GluttonyFang]

He's actually a lot of fun, just don't try to use morality or consience to make your argument.

Someone has done homework on me it appears

 

[Sandmann]

Someone has done homework on me it appears

It's always wise to know one's opponent.

 

[BL1P]

Here is the first step for FDev in how to get more players interested in PvP.

https://www.battleye.com/

 

[MacAllister]

There are some good points made in this video that justifies the reasons
why this game is not a Player vs Player oriented game and never has been.

The Problem With Elite: Dangerous -- You

 

[GluttonyFang]

why this game is not a Player vs Player oriented game and never has been.

No it's not, PvP and PvE are both integral to the game, and that's by Sandro's own words.

 

[Zeta Legion]

No it's not, PvP and PvE are both integral to the game, and that's by Sandro's own words.

PvP doesn't really DO anything positive for the game. It lets people who want to shoot very specific ships do that provided somebody else is available, and it lets them harass other players with impunity, but for marginal or flat zero gain in either case.

What I'm saying is PvP isn't really a viable alternative to PvE right now. Piracy is a joke, bounties can be easily dealt with or avoided, etc.

 

[GluttonyFang]

PvP doesn't really DO anything positive for the game. It lets people who want to shoot very specific ships do that provided somebody else is available, and it lets them harass other players with impunity, but for marginal or flat zero gain in either case.

What I'm saying is PvP isn't really a viable alternative to PvE right now. Piracy is a joke, bounties can be easily dealt with or avoided, etc.

I don't think any of those points make any difference under Sandro's word, not to mention combative PvP isn't the only kind of PvP present.

Edit:

I guess PvP league is either negative or flat zero for the game .-.

 

[willowfan]

There are some good points made in this video that justifies the reasons
why this game is not a Player vs Player oriented game and never has been.

The Problem With Elite: Dangerous -- You

Brilliant video. That guy gets it!

 

[Zeta Legion]

I don't think any of those points make any difference under Sandro's word, not to mention combative PvP isn't the only kind of PvP present.

Edit:

I guess PvP league is either negative or flat zero for the game .-.

PvP = Player versus Player, it's combative by nature whether that is a competition between two wings of consenting pilots or just the late night seal clubbing pub-crawl crew. Both of which were included in my original post, so I don't see how you could have an issue there.

Sandro can say what he likes, it's his project after all. It doesn't stop PvP from being essentially rudderless right now. You don't really earn anything from participating, there's no official leaderboard for bragging rights, there's nothing. It just exists.

 

[Sandmann]

There are some good points made in this video that justifies the reasons
why this game is not a Player vs Player oriented game and never has been.

The Problem With Elite: Dangerous -- You

Yep, that's pretty much it. It's not a PvP game... it's a PvE game with some PvP elements, but the game neither revolves around nor even requires PvP - it plays just fine without it, and engaging in it does nothing for a player other than letting them engage in PvP.