Does FD really think this is "healthy" balance?
- Thread starter Dave1029
- Start date
All of that is just camouflage. Nothing you mentioned as ways to balance ships have any connection to the gear you put in a ship. I know you brought them up as a form of satire but, here I have a real point to counter it. The FSD is just like Thrusters, Power Plants, and any of the other modules you have to choose from when outfitting a ship. I have to stress, that your dislike for a design decision does not make it an invalid decision.
Your complaint is about the use of your game time. I have sympathy but, it's just not enough of a concern, when playing a video game, to circumvent the logical effects of the overall design of the ships. Video games are inherently a waste of time.
P.S. Maybe the jump ranges a couple of ships can produce are the outliers. Not the many that can't reach those ranges. Comparing all ships to the few specialists isn't a balanced look at the situation.
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I know the FSD is a module like thrusters, but I don't really believe it should be. At least not to the extent of the variation there is now, and especially not with such large variation between different ships. The points I brought up could just as easily be introduced as modules (grade 6A Ship Electronics Package anyone?), but it doesn't make sense to do so because it would make for horrid game play. I feel the FSD variation falls into that category.
Now this I can't argue with
I just wish to present some well reasoned arguments for why I believe it actually is the wrong decision that amount to more than "my FDL sucks and needs a buff". In some threads the FSD range haters have a tendency to be treated like the "simpler" kids just looking for a quick fix, so I would like to balance that view a little.They are indeed, but I like to waste my time doing something I enjoy. As stated earlier this would not be such a big concern if interstellar travel in Elite was actually enjoyable or challenging. As it stands though it is ridiculously simple (jump, turn, jump, turn etc.) and rather boring.
That last part is what makes the FSD range balance so different to any other balancing elements in the game. It forces you to spend more time in the absolute least fleshed out mechanic that Elite has, which really is not a good thing.
In the end I just have to admit that I don;t agree with you. I hope to pass some of my perspective onto these discussions, so anyone reading them sees that there may not be consensus on certain matters. It takes the back and forth we are on to expose the points each side makes, and for those who make a difference to be exposed to them. Many times FD have taken a decision on matters I don;t agree with, but in the end they find a way to move their game along. I trust them, but I am convinced that ignoring suggestions I do not favor is the best way to see them enter the game.
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Fair enough
Have some rep for keeping it civil!
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Hmm, one thing that would be interesting, what if there was an expedited way to get to points of interest within the bubble?
For example, certain large "hub systems" could have jump-gates in them that allow you to instantly jump to connected hubs regardless of distance. This would effectively "shrink" the bubble, since as long as you're inside inhabited space, absolute distance wouldn't matter so much as distance from the nearest hub. Examples of hub systems would be Eravate, Sol, Achenar, and Power Play headquarters such as Nanomam. A single hub may not necessarily grant you access to the entire network (indeed, Empire and Federation gate networks may be entirely closed off to each other outside of a handful of designated "border gates"), but in general utilizing hubs will reduce most in-system trips to less than eight jumps or so, standard FSD jumps included.
This would allow ships like the Vulture to get around inhabited space in a reasonable time, and if you stash your ships in a hub system it'll make swapping ships relatively easy. At the same time, because the gate network doesn't extend past inhabited space (and is even sparse to nonexistent out in the periphery), jump range would maintain its relevance as an exploration stat. It would also bring an interesting twist to PowerPlay, since now proximity to hub systems becomes a major factor in how easy a system is to fortify.
For example, certain large "hub systems" could have jump-gates in them that allow you to instantly jump to connected hubs regardless of distance. This would effectively "shrink" the bubble, since as long as you're inside inhabited space, absolute distance wouldn't matter so much as distance from the nearest hub. Examples of hub systems would be Eravate, Sol, Achenar, and Power Play headquarters such as Nanomam. A single hub may not necessarily grant you access to the entire network (indeed, Empire and Federation gate networks may be entirely closed off to each other outside of a handful of designated "border gates"), but in general utilizing hubs will reduce most in-system trips to less than eight jumps or so, standard FSD jumps included.
This would allow ships like the Vulture to get around inhabited space in a reasonable time, and if you stash your ships in a hub system it'll make swapping ships relatively easy. At the same time, because the gate network doesn't extend past inhabited space (and is even sparse to nonexistent out in the periphery), jump range would maintain its relevance as an exploration stat. It would also bring an interesting twist to PowerPlay, since now proximity to hub systems becomes a major factor in how easy a system is to fortify.
Yet the FDL is one of the most used ships in game. So does it need even less jump range?
=_=
I...I can't even look at you right now. *flounce!* >:C
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Guys. The FDL and ASP X are like the same size. There is no reasoning as to why the FDL or other combat ships are gimped. If you're trying to cut them off from exploring, then that is extremely simple. Military grade FSD's. The fuel must be bought. The jump range is increased by 50% and fuel consumption per jump is lowered. Yay balance. This makes it easier to get around the immediate area as fighters should, but are ill equipped for long journeys. The journey to the CG may take the same time, but now it's a literally more interesting and I'd dock with some new stations on the way instead of FRIENDSHIP DRIVE CHARGING. FUEL SCOOPING INITIATED.
And by the way, I'm no stranger to going long distances. I have something like 100,000 LY's travelled. But exploring there's the interesting part of scanning the system before jumping. Buckyballing is awful.
And by the way, I'm no stranger to going long distances. I have something like 100,000 LY's travelled. But exploring there's the interesting part of scanning the system before jumping. Buckyballing is awful.
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So buy an Asp X instead.
Jump Range is a factor of FSD Size Grade and total ships mass
The FDL needs the space internally for that size Six PD and Huge Hardpoint (even if nothing it fitted the internal hardpoint is there) so there is a smaller housing for a smaller FSD
So same size ships different allocation of space internally, different jump ranges from similar masses due to one having a lower size FSD
That isn't "gimping" Combat ships anymore than the lack of a Large or Huge Hardpoint or a smaller PD in the Asp X is "Gimping" it.
Even in FE2 where you had a hull with just amount of tonnage it could fit, not slots, if you took two ships of the same size and put a bigger hyper drive in one, it is not going to be able to fit the same size weapons, same number of shield generators and same amount of fuel.
It is called opportunity cost.
Really does sound like people doesn't want Ship choice to be anything but external aesthetics and maybe sound
Everything else must be the same, right?
Well Python is a multi roll, and not as great at combat, though 2.1 does change that a good bit, but FDL still has a very big advantage in agility and speed, which is something combat needs, doesn't seem like it should be underestimated, I fly my FDL for combat stuff, python for 'general' missions but it is a significant difference when it comes to combat, heck the two extra utility points that the FDL do a lot.
If we do a comparing between python and FDL since they are in same price class, though python is quite a bit more expensive to outfit, and that's another difference, one thing is hull price, but python is the more expensive to outfit, nearly double in price to do so, that seems to be forgotten also? but how would you have it balanced if it were between FDL and python?
And why is that a good solution? A space game where only the most tolerant of boredom can use more than a few ships seems rather badly designed in my eyes.
Except I just explained over the last few pages why this isn't true. FSD range is different to every other ship stat because it:
a) is not a tactical choice in anything but the most fringe cases
b) is directly proportionate to the time the player has to spend engaged in Elites least interesting mechanic, interstellar jumping
I am perfectly happy with an FDL being a poor trader. I am not happy that otherwise excellent multipurpose ships like the Python or Clipper have between 30 and 50% less jump range than an Asp E when all are kitted for multipurpose use. The one and only effect of this is to force me to choose to fly a less interesting and enjoyable ship (the Asp) to avoid spending unnecessary time FSDing around. What good does this bring to the game?
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One could argue that there is not enough variation, but is that not a symptom of issues with the ship designs rather than the arbitrary limitations to FSD range? As mentioned you could add all sorts of differentiators to the ships but few of them make for engaging game play or tactical choices.
Care to expand or are you too shocked?
Actually I'm shocked, I read to page 2 and thought that was it, suddenly I realise there was a whole 9 pages to this thread
What surprise in your post is the defence of game mechanic which has nothing to do with balance
Example: want an universe bigger? Lower fsd s range of every ships than 90 %
Staying in frnt of a monitor for 40 minutes doing the same brainless thing is not balance : it is just tedious and Stupid ( and engineers doesn't t solve but partially that )
You are probably younger than me so you have time to spareggio. Once you understand time is Precious resource you ll do anything to avoid to loosw it
It's not, the poster made the comparison. He seems to think his FDL shouldn't be inferior to any other ship in any area. If this were the case we'd only need to have FDL's in the game. The whole point to specialised ships that have weaknesses is to introduce variation and prevent metas.
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Anyone defending the current "balance" is defending an awful, nonsensical game design. If they wish to continue with that I don't think you can say much to change their minds. It's demonstrably bad, provably nonsensical so how do you expect to argue against someone like that?
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Do you mean like when doing smuggling missions Eagles can jump as far as Asps?
This in heaps - it's a stupid argument because that's exactly what would happen. Some people don't want to go against the status quo even when they have no good arguments to stick with it. If jump ranges had started out being hundreds of light years, they'd be defending that decision too. You know people have no argument when they blindly defend arbitrary decisions and you can't get more arbitrary than jump ranges.
1 They don't make sense physically. What happened to mass and how do jump engines work?
2There's no reason why they can't be 100 ly jumps. If FD decided to make them like that, they can just invent a new technology found in jump drives meaning at any point in the game, FD can instantly change reality.
3 There's no argument to be had when one side is making it all up - and made up badly, see point 1
At the end of the day it's a game, not a simulator. A game requires strength and weaknesses, challenges to overcome, etc. It's set up so all ships are good at some things but no ship's great at all things in order to give people various ways to "attack" the game. If they just put in a killer ship that could haul around ten times it's own mass, jump across the galaxy in a single bound, and fly so fast and manouver so well that it could fly circles around itself AND run away from itself all at the same time, there'd be no point to having any other ship. The correct paraphrasing of this thread is "I don't like the way FDev have balanced my favourite ship and I'm going to whine about it."
Look at other games... ever seen a war where soldiers can only move in straight lines and only attack an enemy whose at 45 degrees to them? Noone's bagging chess though, are they? When Monopoly was offered for publishing it was refused with publishes stating that it had "52 fundamental flaws", and it's gone on to become the most popular board game in history. Games aren't made on their accuracy, they're made on their fun - which generally is nothing more than being presented with nominal obstacles and utilising artificial rules to overcome them.
Having said that, I'd like to see the flight physics in ED tightened up a bit... but I'm a sim freak.
Look at other games... ever seen a war where soldiers can only move in straight lines and only attack an enemy whose at 45 degrees to them? Noone's bagging chess though, are they? When Monopoly was offered for publishing it was refused with publishes stating that it had "52 fundamental flaws", and it's gone on to become the most popular board game in history. Games aren't made on their accuracy, they're made on their fun - which generally is nothing more than being presented with nominal obstacles and utilising artificial rules to overcome them.
Having said that, I'd like to see the flight physics in ED tightened up a bit... but I'm a sim freak.
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Your opinion isn't reasonable though so no, why would anyone listen to it? You literally just said that it's balanced for people who don't want to spend all day jumping and watching load screens. So making people wait longer and doing nothing whilst waiting = game balance does it? Sorry, that is an unreasonable position to hold.