Discuss the AI here!

What do you think of the new AI?

  • Too hard

    Votes: 954 46.7%
  • Just right

    Votes: 838 41.0%
  • Too easy

    Votes: 117 5.7%
  • Other (give reason)

    Votes: 134 6.6%

  • Total voters
    2,043
  • Poll closed .
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I guess my thing with it is this: I don't mind that they are harder if you seek out the combat. If you want to go to a HazRES, then by all means, make the AI as difficult as possible. It might make it harder for me to bounty hunt, but I usually do that as a side thing anyway. My problem is when I'm shipping merits and an Elite conda pulls me out and wrecks me before I can high wake.

I've seen someone suggest that harder AI be mostly confined to areas where people actually go to fight: RES sites, war zones, powerplay control systems, etc. while they remain more....tame if you randomly encounter them in supercruise. I would actually find that to be an OK compromise.
Let's pretend you are a casual player. Perhaps you purchased this on Kickstarted with memories of the old Elite and Wing Commander and XWing and such.

Let's pretend that what you like is getting in dogfights. You want to hunt bounties and be in war zones because that's way more fun than flying around in super-cruise.

But you don't have dozens of hours to spend perfecting your build and flying skills, and perhaps you don't even have season 2 so all those upgrades.

Where do you go? A Nav Point? that means you'll need to spend more time to get anywhere which, as a casual player, you actually have less of.

Was this marketed as a game for competitive hard-core gamers? I must have missed that.
 
There appears to be a slightly higher majority liking the new AI vs; people who don't like it.


Here's my question for those who do like it; Are the rest of our concerns just not valid? Should we have absolutely no say in how the game that we are also playing be enjoyed?


Answer this, please.

See my post two posts above yours.

Also, I'll add this:

1). The new AI for NPC's with high combat rankings is hard. There are ways to avoid being engaged by NPC's with high combat rankings in most cases (mostly by avoiding low security systems), except for those players with high combat rankings, who tend to draw powerful NPC's.
2). Casual players, and those averse to combat, are likely to experience difficulty at first.
3). You'll adapt. Let me emphasize that I do not mean to say this dismissively; I actually mean it. You will get better by facing up to the challenge, because that's the natural result of facing up to a challenge.
4). There are a lot of us who are good combat pilots who are willing to help other players get better. Please accept our advice.
4a.) I'm not talking about the ones who say, "git gud" here. I'm talking about tips like these:
4a1). If you're going to travel in low-security systems, gear for combat, or at least for heavy defense.
4a2). "Heavy defense" means A-rank shields, chaff launchers, and either ECM or point defense. Have them, and know how to use them. Considering thermal shock, you may want a heat sink. (EDIT: What the heck did I type here originally?! That was a thinko)
4a3). When interdicted, aim TOWARD your enemy (but not directly at them) and boost. This is a more effective escape tactic than pointing away because the time they spend turning around to chase you is time you spend opening the range. Range is the single most effective way to avoid damage.
4a4). In many cases, submitting to the interdiction puts you in a better position to escape. However, before you do this, use the "highest threat" targeting option to find out who is interdicting you (i.e. make sure they aren't faster than you!)
4a5). Security ships are MUCH stronger than they used to be. In high-and-mid security, all you have to do is survive until the cops show up, typically about 30 seconds. They will attack the pirate aggressively and will draw fire off of you by doing so.
4a6). Tests have shown that NPC pirates actually DO accept dropped cargo and let you go on your way now (as long as you drop enough to satisfy them). So that's an option.
5). The game was never meant to be easy. It was meant to be challenging, but the AI couldn't deliver before. Now it can; now we're seeing the game as it was intended to be.
6). For those who farmed their way up to very high Pilot's Federation rankings and aren't skilled enough to handle the new Elite and Deadly AI, I feel for you; you're going to have a very rough time.
6a). I think it would be good if FD offered players a way to voluntarily reduce their combat rank in order to not be interdicted by the most dangerous foes, if they so choose.
7). Most of all, pay attention to system security levels. It's on the system map, but not on the galaxy map.
7a). FD: As noted above, this needs to be on the galaxy map!
7b). Missions to low security systems usually pay more; this helps compensate for the extra precautions you have to take which may reduce your profit margins.
8). Those who keep insisting the low-ranking AI is harder than it was have had a very different experience than me! Maybe they had bad luck. Maybe they got jumped by an NPC that happened to have a particularly nasty engineer mod. I've fought several Novice and lower ships, though, and all of them were every bit as easy as before. Maybe easier.
 
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No because this game has been missing the dangers for to long now. Trading or exploring was never meant to be easy. You just need to work on new tactics.. The risk finally is inline with the reward
what tactic do you suggest in his situation? he cant fight. he cant flee because its as fast as him. he doesnt get a chance to jump out or supercruise because hes dead before it charges how does he 'tactic' his way out of that? he cant not submit because hes unlikely to succeed in an asp unless hes superhuman reflexes or using the force (im good at that in a sidewinder and i cant do it all the time in an asp explorer), and then he has longer cooldown and maybe malfunction to fsd if its damaged enough. come on whats the miracle tactic? and this scenario has been posted now by three people at least in this thread. im interested because if there is a way out i need to know for when it happens to me - and dont give me pip advice i know all that and its automatic for me if i decide i need to flee.

Rankaze i disagree with your 'casual players need not worry', the reason is im casual; and i got my competent rank by 1 community goal to kill pirates at another community goal i was doing (many of them interdicted me) and by killing most of the ones that interdict me in my normal play. what the result is, is that i and everyone else will have their combat rank increase. it may happen much slower than the pew pews do it, but it WILL happen as surely as the sun rise tomorrow. and eventually will reach a stage where we DO attract npcs in ships and with combat ranks we cant fight - because we arent in a combat ship. this is a ticking bomb and i feel sure the devs will need to address it. but the only way to make the statement about us not worrying true is to not die, and flee EVERY combat encounter... thus making the game more a chore and less fun. it will if left unfixed, mean only new players will be in anything other than combat focused ships. what point in mining or trading missions then? nobody will have ships able to hold cargo unless they add a cargo only space on every combat ship that HAS to be cargo.
 
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I might have to say I partially agree here. I saw a post where a guy got a 140k repair bill on an 80k bounty. perhaps there needs to be a look at bounty payouts for the higher end AI. I would leave the low end AI alone as they dont pose the significant threat to waarrant an increase

Yeah. As the AI has only been improved for the higher-level NPCs, I wouldn't expect increased rewards for the lower ones.


I guess my thing with it is this: I don't mind that they are harder if you seek out the combat. If you want to go to a HazRES, then by all means, make the AI as difficult as possible. It might make it harder for me to bounty hunt, but I usually do that as a side thing anyway. My problem is when I'm shipping merits and an Elite conda pulls me out and wrecks me before I can high wake.

I've seen someone suggest that harder AI be mostly confined to areas where people actually go to fight: RES sites, war zones, powerplay control systems, etc. while they remain more....tame if you randomly encounter them in supercruise. I would actually find that to be an OK compromise.


I wouldn't mind that. Hard AI for CZs, RES, etc., and "normal" AI outside those areas e.g. if you get yanked out of SC while doing some trading.
 
Then it should pay more money.

Far be it from me to argue with more pay!

I think the rewards are adequate (which surprised me; I expected to find myself asking for more money, too, but I did a lot better than I thought I would last night), but if you can convince FD to give us more, I'll happily accept it and certainly won't argue against it.

Especially since combat is still the least profitable of the three main professions (and for the explorers out there who want to dispute this, I have three words for you: neutron star farming)
 
Looking at the poll 40% think the AI is a little too hard (45% think it's just right)

What we don't know is the spread of combat ratings for the voters as that has a massive impact on the NPCs - high end enemies all use engineer mods, and as the update has only just come out not many of us will have any yet.

I hope FD reviews the AI and adjusts (if necessary) as appropriate.
 
I love hard games. I play Arma 3 but there is strategy that needs to be adopted in that. Can you do the same thing with ED ?

Yes. For starters: Don't attack NPCs that are superior to you until they attack someone else first.

Watch your six. Be aware of where all the NPCs are, and don't get in the middle of a bunch of potential enemies.
 
Strange that my memory of elite in 1984 is somewhat different from your opinion on it...the original was easy to play...what we have now is unplayable unless ye been farming millions and have a top end ship. Very easy to pass judgement when yer a hardcore veteran...and that really is the only perspective you have to argue from because yer closing statement was just laughable ^^

A "hardcore veteran"? I wasn't even alive when Elite 1984 was released - you're the veteran. I also imagine my playtime is minuscule in comparison to yours.

Please don't labour me with your banalities. Cheers.
 
Why I went back to a old tactic I used when I was new.

Simply waiting for the police to open fire 1st, then join in.

Works, but it means you now have to follow the system security around.
 
1). The new AI for NPC's with high combat rankings is hard. There are ways to avoid being engaged by NPC's with high combat rankings in most cases (mostly by avoiding low security systems), except for those players with high combat rankings, who tend to draw powerful NPC's.
2). Casual players, and those averse to combat, are likely to experience difficulty at first.

Lower ranked NPCs are now supposed to actually be easier, meaning lower ranked players shouldn't experience much more difficulty at all, and mid ranked NPCs are going to be tweaked afaik.

I wonder how much of the whining is coming from people who 'grinded' to combat elite by cap ship kill stealing and what not, suddenly realising (or rather, not, and blaming the game) that they don't actually know how to fight.
 
Or...it's to stop a massive spam-fest of pages and pages of exactly the same thread being reposted endlessly.

Which suggests to me that there is a faction who either don't like it, or do.

I've been playing online games for close to fifteen years and have been posting in forums for just as long. The pattern always repeats. Controversy happens, people post about it, then a directive comes from above that PR is taking a hit, so forum mods are asked to consolidate it or lock it. Then one mod-sponsored thread shows up and says "Voice your concerns HERE!" which rapidly hits post cap forcing mods to either extend cap or bury the issue. It's literally nothing more than an internet forum version of a "Free Speech Zone". It's nothing but a pure PR tactic.
 
I don't enjoy these changes. For me, Elite was a relaxing space shooter. I'd log into Elite for a bit of fun in pve bounty hunting. Yes, some AI needed fixing. But this update didn't fix AI, it just gave the npcs Horizons modules. Modules that part of the playerbase doesn't have access to, and so can never be on-par with. So now it feels like Horizons (and another grind) is mandatory.

I'm glad some people enjoy the changes. I don't see why, but that is because reasonable voices are being lost in a cacophony of jerks.

My view is that the the current content design is simply too thin to support multiple playstyles. The current design means I no longer have a fun space shooter. Reverting means some people lose their masochism simulator (/s... a little).

This could be fixed by having some sectors of space be more or less dangerous, and labeling these on the galactic map. (Zones!). Alternatively, limit new npcs to new areas, like a newgame system. So new npcs are found in RES+, or HAZ-RES+ zones. This adds diversity to content, instead of forcing people with varying playstyles be identical.
 
Looking at the poll 40% think the AI is a little too hard (45% think it's just right)

What we don't know is the spread of combat ratings for the voters as that has a massive impact on the NPCs - high end enemies all use engineer mods, and as the update has only just come out not many of us will have any yet.

I hope FD reviews the AI and adjusts (if necessary) as appropriate.

And 10% think it's too easy ;)

The rest are somewhere in between.

The biggest reason people think it's too hard is because they don't have engineer upgrades. If Frontier hadn't blocked access to the fast engines with bugs on the availability of Soontil relics, then people would too busy zooming around in Eagles to care about NPCs.
 
Which suggests to me that there is a faction who either don't like it, or do.

I've been playing online games for close to fifteen years and have been posting in forums for just as long. The pattern always repeats. Controversy happens, people post about it, then a directive comes from above that PR is taking a hit, so forum mods are asked to consolidate it or lock it. Then one mod-sponsored thread shows up and says "Voice your concerns HERE!" which rapidly hits post cap forcing mods to either extend cap or bury the issue. It's literally nothing more than an internet forum version of a "Free Speech Zone". It's nothing but a pure PR tactic.

Indeed, I have been for quite a while, too, and if I was a mod here I'd do exactly the same thing.

There's no 'PR hit', it just stops every page from 1 to 50 in this sub-forum being constant reposts of the same arguments and whining.
 
The only solution I can imagine is to allow players to set a "difficulty" level to adjust the game to their play style.

But there is, not just as direct.

-There are systems with different security levels, and now that actually means something. High sec the cops will turn up quickly and in force.
-There as RES, low res, high res and haz res. In lower RES the police force will crank down of pirates and send them to oblivion. Its just not the NPC baddies that were beefed up, police NPC were just as much beefed and are much quicker to respond.
-There is an indication on the mission board for the expected difficulty of each mission.

All these things work as a more intelligent and much more immersive difficulty slider. If a player wants to avoid too much danger, he can choose to fly in high security systems, avoid the higher RES sites, choose less dangerous missions, pay attention to the scanner, even if picking up fights, a player can choose to not engage the higher tier or heavy combat ship NPCs. Also he can outfit his ship to better survivability, he can fit a better shield instead of the smaller/lighter one, add armour or some HRPs, add chaff and point defense, set more pips to shields, not run away in straight lines, etc etc etc. He wil be fine, if he just calms down, pay attention to the game, and gives it a go with an open mind.
 
Looking at the poll 40% think the AI is a little too hard (45% think it's just right)

What we don't know is the spread of combat ratings for the voters as that has a massive impact on the NPCs - high end enemies all use engineer mods, and as the update has only just come out not many of us will have any yet.

I hope FD reviews the AI and adjusts (if necessary) as appropriate.

I think this thread has tons of useful feedback, especially about loadouts, etc. Hopefully FD digs in and 2.2 will get even better balanced AI with more varied tricks under their sleeves.
 
But there is, not just as direct.

-There are systems with different security levels, and now that actually means something. High sec the cops will turn up quickly and in force.
-There as RES, low res, high res and haz res. In lower RES the police force will crank down of pirates and send them to oblivion. Its just not the NPC baddies that were beefed up, police NPC were just as much beefed and are much quicker to respond.
-There is an indication on the mission board for the expected difficulty of each mission.

All these things work as a more intelligent and much more immersive difficulty slider. If a player wants to avoid too much danger, he can choose to fly in high security systems, avoid the higher RES sites, choose less dangerous missions, pay attention to the scanner, even if picking up fights, a player can choose to not engage the higher tier or heavy combat ship NPCs. Also he can outfit his ship to better survivability, he can fit a better shield instead of the smaller/lighter one, add armour or some HRPs, add chaff and point defense, set more pips to shields, not run away in straight lines, etc etc etc. He wil be fine, if he just calms down, pay attention to the game, and gives it a go with an open mind.

Going to take a while for people to realize this. Just keep reposting until enough people read it.

There are plenty of ways to make money safely. People just need to relearn that the galaxy map has useful information on it. And which missions are safe vs extremely unsafe.
 
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And 10% think it's too easy ;)

The rest are somewhere in between.

The biggest reason people think it's too hard is because they don't have engineer upgrades. If Frontier hadn't blocked access to the fast engines with bugs on the availability of Soontil relics, then people would too busy zooming around in Eagles to care about NPCs.
Less than 10% of players ever post on forums about their favorite video games and they tend to be the biggest and most dedicated fans.

Which means 40% of the most hardcore 10% like it.
 
Tone down how trigger happy pirates are. I just lost two type 7s in under an hour, and am ready to quite the game for a good long time because of it. Playing a trading career was borderline unfun as it was, but this just takes the cake, as each time I was interdicted, they demanded cargo, opened fire right away before I could drop it, and didn't stop firing once I had. Make NPC pirates please start with a warning shot, give more time to drop cargo, and cease fire if it is being dropped. I'm sick of getting my ship melted out from under me with out any hope of preventing it. I'm making virtually no profit anymore since I keep dying each time I make back the rebuy cost. I can't even imagine how it must be for a type 9 driver.
 
And 10% think it's too easy ;)

The rest are somewhere in between.

The biggest reason people think it's too hard is because they don't have engineer upgrades. If Frontier hadn't blocked access to the fast engines with bugs on the availability of Soontil relics, then people would too busy zooming around in Eagles to care about NPCs.


I have wondered if combat would be more balanced if ppl had the mods for engines at least.
 
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