Discuss the AI here!

[bossbrigand]

I just ran into an AI Cobra that kept popping SCBs and chaff like he'd never run out. And he didn't. Because of the Clipper's hardpoint placement, there was no way to hit him at all, since as soon as his chaff wore off he just popped another one, over and over. I'd get his shields down a few rings in the few seconds between his chaffs, then he'd pop chaffs and an SCB and he'd be right back at 100%. Then I couldn't even escape him after he took my combat Clipper down to 38% hull because his top speed was higher than a Cobra is allowed to go. The AI is cheating, I have no doubt about that. Ammunition and heat are no concern to them - they will continue blasting and using countermeasures til the cows come home. This wasn't that big of a deal until apparently every single NPC started getting issued top shelf engineered equipment and now they're nigh unkillable.

Clippers should not have to worry about particularly determined Haulers and stalwart Sidewinders because they're magically getting weapons that would make a Majestic blush.

 

[Crusina Luachra]

Is anyone else unable to do the bounty CG as federal agents attack you? I cant defend myself or I would become wanted.

 

[Moonax IRL]

1.6 players do not have access to mods. I play both, 1.6 and 2.1. I feel for the 1.6 players...

Well in fairness if none of us bought the expansions that would be the end of the game so we have to be realistic here. Personally I have sympathy for those that cannot move up to Horizons for some genuine reason but none for those who want it for nothing and refuse to support the game.

 

[Spacecat]

I'm curious... some folks are reporting having no trouble and others such as myself are being cut down fast in a kitted out FDL none the less, by lesser ships. I don't have Horizons and I'm wondering if the trouble is more limited to version 1.6.

I only have 1.6, and I didn't think it was super horrible. BTW, All the beta doods have to start over in the real release, so probably nobody has upgraded stuff this early.

 

[JerryLove]

I think someone has hit the nail on the head, the AI itself is fine. It's ruthless and dangerous; the problem lies with what they're armed with and while it's a good way to encourage people to take up Horizons because of the boosts that Engineers can provide, it is maybe too much too soon for current players to adapt to. New players will be absolutely fine as they'll learn as they play as if it's always been that way whereas we have suddenly unknow everything and start over. Thing that's really bugging me is the seemingly infinite ammo chaff and SCBs the NPCs have - maybe they should have consumable ammo rather than a limitless supply.

Yes. The ASP that killed me was just spamming missiles at an insane rate and for a long time.

My vulture just nearly got taken out by a sidewinder who flew literal circles around me and who had a shield that came back up faster than any I've ever seen.

Better pilots = good
Overpowered ships with unlimited ammo and rapid-fire = bad

 

[Moonax IRL]

I just ran into an AI Cobra that kept popping SCBs and chaff like he'd never run out. And he didn't. Because of the Clipper's hardpoint placement, there was no way to hit him at all, since as soon as his chaff wore off he just popped another one, over and over. I'd get his shields down a few rings in the few seconds between his chaffs, then he'd pop chaffs and an SCB and he'd be right back at 100%. Then I couldn't even escape him after he took my combat Clipper down to 38% hull because his top speed was higher than a Cobra is allowed to go. The AI is cheating, I have no doubt about that. Ammunition and heat are no concern to them - they will continue blasting and using countermeasures til the cows come home. This wasn't that big of a deal until apparently every single NPC started getting issued top shelf engineered equipment and now they're nigh unkillable.

Clippers should not have to worry about particularly determined Haulers.

Hardpoint placement on the clipper is poor and a major flaw. AI can use mods and a modded engine on a cobra would outrun the clipper with ease so they are not cheating, you have to mod your clipper and also maybe use FA off would be a big help.

You have to use FA off now due to the improved AI

 

[Cmnd Fulsom]

Yes. The ASP that killed me was just spamming missiles at an insane rate and for a long time.

My vulture just nearly got taken out by a sidewinder who flew literal circles around me and who had a shield that came back up faster than any I've ever seen.

Better pilots = good
Overpowered ships with unlimited ammo and rapid-fire = bad

Let me ask a question, what was the sidewinder's behavior?

 

[bossbrigand]

Hardpoint placement on the clipper is poor and a major flaw. AI can use mods and a modded engine on a cobra would outrun the clipper with ease

The Clipper's poor hardpoint placement is a design flaw (intended by the devs as a drawback for when it was actually a good ship in other respects) but one that can be overcome when the AI isn't allowed to cheat to this extent. I am a plenty capable pilot and omnipotent bots are doing me in at every turn. They shouldn't be able to cheat and use engineered equipment, that's not even remotely fair. The Clipper used to be a fearsome beast and now it's a flying eggshell with unforgiveably poor handling, comparatively slow to the inexplicably speedy AI ships, poor jump range, poor fuel, and a really sorry cargo capacity for its size. It has no redeeming qualities anymore - everything it was good at has been taken away from it by imbalanced updates.

I managed to kill an AI Clipper that was out-turning me at an absolutely rate - more like a Sidewinder than a Clipper. They are cheating, and it's not fun to fight them.

 

[Spacecat]

Well in fairness if none of us bought the expansions that would be the end of the game so we have to be realistic here. Personally I have sympathy for those that cannot move up to Horizons for some genuine reason but none for those who want it for nothing and refuse to support the game.

You have a point, but at the same time, the season pass is like $30 now.

 

[Moonax IRL]

Yes. The ASP that killed me was just spamming missiles at an insane rate and for a long time.

My vulture just nearly got taken out by a sidewinder who flew literal circles around me and who had a shield that came back up faster than any I've ever seen.

Better pilots = good
Overpowered ships with unlimited ammo and rapid-fire = bad

Missiles are dangerous as they should be, no ship now should be without at least one point defence.

 

[Brimstone]

I just ran into an AI Cobra that kept popping SCBs and chaff like he'd never run out. And he didn't. Because of the Clipper's hardpoint placement, there was no way to hit him at all, since as soon as his chaff wore off he just popped another one, over and over. I'd get his shields down a few rings in the few seconds between his chaffs, then he'd pop chaffs and an SCB and he'd be right back at 100%. Then I couldn't even escape him after he took my combat Clipper down to 38% hull because his top speed was higher than a Cobra is allowed to go. The AI is cheating, I have no doubt about that. Ammunition and heat are no concern to them - they will continue blasting and using countermeasures til the cows come home. This wasn't that big of a deal until apparently every single NPC started getting issued top shelf engineered equipment and now they're nigh unkillable.

Clippers should not have to worry about particularly determined Haulers and stalwart Sidewinders because they're magically getting weapons that would make a Majestic blush.

??? A cobra can boost as fast or faster as a Clipper.

 

[Moonax IRL]

You have a point, but at the same time, the season pass is like $30 now.

Personally I think its cheap for what you get but I have the LEP but FD can`t work for nothing.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

??? A cobra can boost as fast or faster as a Clipper.

Modded cobra could probably boost in the 550-600 range. I had an FDL in beta 550 boost and it probably can be faster

 

[bossbrigand]

??? A cobra can boost as fast or faster as a Clipper.

We'll set aside how dumb that is because it doesn't matter - he was gaining on me much faster than the Cobra's boost advantage should allow for, guns blazing, and to add insult to injury, spamming chaff, so even if I wanted to turn around and fight him I couldn't have hit him anyway.

Even if you can hot rod them with engineer upgrades I can see absolutely no good reason to allow the AI, which is already cheating with infinite SCBs/chaff/ammo and no heat concerns, to have access to those engineered modules.

 

[JerryLove]

Let me ask a question, what was the sidewinder's behavior?

Mostly circling while pointing at me. A laudable approach; but one which I should have been more able to counter by pointing at him.

A vulture's pitch speed while at ideal speeds (in blue) should trump a sidewinder's ability to make large circles around my ship (last I checked).

When I could get pointed at him (usually had do go into reverse), he just kept popping an apparently unlimited amount of Chaff. I'm not awesome with fixed, so I run gimbeled.

It was a long fight; he went back to full shields at least 5 times from "shields down", and I was taking hull damage before I managed to finish him off.

I like a close fight: but I should not have gotten one from that ship.

*Edit*
I run a 5D thruster and am below its optimum weight.

 

[DaveB]

Wow.. cook and eat dinner and there's another 20 pages....

I'm sorry guys, if anything I say has been addressed since page 85 I'm afraid I skipped it and I apologize for the repetition...


I think we need to be VERY careful what we're inferring from our respective experiences.

Please, when recounting your experiences on this thread look EXTREMELY critically at your memory of the encounter, or review the video if you captured one. If it was an "unpleasant" experience, review it in the light of three factors:

• The flight skill of the NPC correlated to his combat rank.
• The numbers of NPCs attacking you (initiating the conflict - it's not the software's fault if you attack a high ranked wing alone and get handed your head, it's not impossible but you'd better be REALLY good) and the distribution of the NPC ranks given what kind opf scenario you were in.
• How many of the NPCs appear to have upgraded/modded ships - unusually high top speeds, special effects on their weapons etc.

Any of these three factors can make a given NPC encounter "easier" or "harder" and they are COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT. SJA's tweaks to the AI skill had nothing to do with what ranks of NPC actually spawn or what they are flying. The tweaks to system security levels could impact the spawn rates and types but has nothing to do with how well they fly or how likely they are to have engineer mods on their ship.. You get the point.

It is absolutely critical, when we give FD feedback on these changes that we identify which of these three things we are giving feedback on. If their flying skill is "just right" but you're getting swarmed by too many ships of too high a rank, or they are all "fished up" and that is why the difficulty of the experience seemed excessive, don't blame it on the AI code, because that has nothing to do with it. If their numbers are ok, their ships unmodified and yet they are still "too difficult" then that IS feedback on the AI code.

Only if we are absolutely meticulous about critically analyzing which area(s) of these three we are giving feedback on, can FD direct their analysis to the proper area of the code and the right programmers on the team. So review your experience before posting and be accurate. Whatever tweaks FD decide to make as a result will be better for it.

 

[Moonax IRL]

We'll set aside how dumb that is because it doesn't matter - he was gaining on me much faster than the Cobra's boost advantage should allow for, guns blazing, and to add insult to injury, spamming chaff, so even if I wanted to turn around and fight him I couldn't have hit him anyway.

Even if you can hot rod them with engineer upgrades I can see absolutely no good reason to allow the AI, which is already cheating with infinite SCBs/chaff/ammo and no heat concerns, to have access to those engineered modules.

As far as I know it has been stated by FD that they suffer from heat the same as human players.

 

[JerryLove]

Well in fairness if none of us bought the expansions that would be the end of the game so we have to be realistic here. Personally I have sympathy for those that cannot move up to Horizons for some genuine reason but none for those who want it for nothing and refuse to support the game.

There are a ton of games which I never purchased (or they never made) expansions for which I still play.

Perhaps I'll go whip out Wing Commander 5 or Privateer to make that point.

Purchasing a game should not obligate me to purchase more things later to keep playing what I baught. ED was not billed as an MMO with a yearly subscription.

I'm happy to buy expansions if I want what's in them. In fact: I do have horizons. But I disagree that I should be obligated to. Forntier is not obligated to expand my existing game; but I do want to be able to play it.

 

[bossbrigand]

Wow.. cook and eat dinner and there's another 20 pages....

I'm sorry guys, if anything I say has been addressed since page 85 I'm afraid I skipped it and I apologize for the repetition...


I think we need to be VERY careful what we're inferring from our respective experiences.

Please, when recounting your experiences on this thread look EXTREMELY critically at your memory of the encounter, or review the video if you captured one. If it was an "unpleasant" experience, review it in the light of three factors:

• The flight skill of the NPC correlated to his combat rank.
• The numbers of NPCs attacking you (initiating the conflict - it's not the software's fault if you attack a high ranked wing alone and get handed your head, it's not impossible but you'd better be REALLY good) and the distribution of the NPC ranks given what kind opf scenario you were in.
• How many of the NPCs appear to have upgraded/modded ships - unusually high top speeds, special effects on their weapons etc.

Any of these three factors can make a given NPC encounter "easier" or "harder" and they are COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT. SJA's tweaks to the AI skill had nothing to do with what ranks of NPC actually spawn or what they are flying. The tweaks to system security levels could impact the spawn rates and types but has nothing to do with how well they fly or how likely they are to have engineer mods on their ship.. You get the point.

It is absolutely critical, when we give FD feedback on these changes that we identify which of these three things we are giving feedback on. If their flying skill is "just right" but you're getting swarmed by too many ships of too high a rank, or they are all "fished up" and that is why the difficulty of the experience seemed excessive, don't blame it on the AI code, because that has nothing to do with it. If their numbers are ok, their ships unmodified and yet they are still "too difficult" then that IS feedback on the AI code.

Only if we are absolutely meticulous about critically analyzing which area(s) of these three we are giving feedback on, FD will have a hard time directing their analysis to the proper area of the code and the right programmers on the team. So review your experience before posting and be accurate. Whatever tweaks FD decide to make as a result will be better for it.

Allowing the AI to regularly spawn with a full suite of overpowered engineer equipment on top of their infinite everything and nil heat concerns is definitely an issue with the AI code.

I recently tried to get at a wing of 3 and rightfully got my ass handed to me. Fair play. On the other side of that coin, lone AI Cobras shouldn't be able to not only avoid getting smacked down by spamming infinite SCBs and chaff but then turn the fight around completely on a far superior vessel, crippling or destroying it without so much as a scratch because it's basically flying with god mode.

 

[Cmnd Fulsom]

Mostly circling while pointing at me. A laudable approach; but one which I should have been more able to counter by pointing at him.

A vulture's pitch speed while at ideal speeds (in blue) should trump a sidewinder's ability to make large circles around my ship (last I checked).

When I could get pointed at him (usually had do go into reverse), he just kept popping an apparently unlimited amount of Chaff. I'm not awesome with fixed, so I run gimbeled.

It was a long fight; he went back to full shields at least 5 times from "shields down", and I was taking hull damage before I managed to finish him off.

I like a close fight: but I should not have gotten one from that ship.

*Edit*
I run a 5D thruster and am below its optimum weight.

Okay, so it sounds like you're seeing what I am. That side winder is trying to gain distance and make a run at you. You're options are thus, you can use boost while strafing downward and pitching up to quickly change directions while you pass in order to get on target behind the side winder at close range. OR, you are in a vulture and unless they have a shield smasher weapon you can just- play the game. There is no chance the side winder will kill you before you kill it in a jousting match. What weapons are you using?

 

[JerryLove]

Okay, so it sounds like you're seeing what I am. That side winder is trying to gain distance and make a run at you. You're options are thus, you can use boost while strafing downward and pitching up to quickly change directions while you pass in order to get on target behind the side winder at close range. OR, you are in a vulture and unless they have a shield smasher weapon you can just- play the game. There is no chance the side winder will kill you before you kill it in a jousting match. What weapons are you using?

Two days ago: I agree.
Today: Apparently not. I will remind you that he took out my (5C with 2x 0A booster) Biweave shield and did hull damage

I've got a 3C gimbaled MC and a 3E pulse laser (I'm in transition: experimenting from the more normal dual size 3 pulse lasers)