Discuss the AI here!

[avcasares]

Man, my ASP Explorer (Trader) with 04 pulse laser 1G + 2 multi cannon 2F, took down against a wing (sidewinder + eagle) in 3 minutes or less... they were shooting with plasma, and they were equipped with engineers upgrades. It is totally unbalanced, the NPCs are too strong, is not more Eliteangerous, now is Elite: Survive !! Besides that, will be totally unfair PvP between ED's players against Horizons's players.... Horizons's players have much more advantage than the others with engineers upgrades.. this is the way that Frontier will obligate all of us expend more money buying Horizons, and the DLC costs is bigger than the main game: ED. It makes no sense...

 

[Bogen]

Went out in my multipurpose ASP and combat Courier for the 1st time after patch for a long session tonight.
Nothing abnormal, AI is not brain dead now, but nothing impossible to overcome.
Aaand... i honestly can't believe some people are posting videos on YT about their fighting "performances" with pythons against sidewinders battles lasting 15 minutes and crying out loud about not being able to kill them, since it's obviuos from their loadouts and pip management they were killing stuff per 2.1 only because NPCs were basically turkeys waiting to be shot.

Now at least pve bounty hunting requires some effort...

I've also seen the infamous "1 shot insurance" videos, maybe that's a bug... not affecting me at the moment.

 

[yodajedifishmaster]

I keep seeing this hidden, secretive group called "hardcore" and yet nobody ever explains who they are, it must be a rolled up trouser leg thing. Speaking as a trader, excluding bugged NPC's I haven't had an issue. I'm just speaking for myself personally, rather than assuming I speak for everyone as seems common here.

then i dont think you are hardcore. iron ass trader maybe, not hardcore combat maniac.

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Went out in my multipurpose ASP and combat Courier for the 1st time after patch for a long session tonight.
Nothing abnormal, AI is not brain dead now, but nothing impossible to overcome.
Aaand... i honestly can't believe some people are posting videos on YT about their fighting "performances" with pythons against sidewinders battles lasting 15 minutes and crying out loud about not being able to kill them, since it's obviuos from their loadouts and pip management they were killing stuff per 2.1 only because NPCs were basically turkeys waiting to be shot.

Now at least pve bounty hunting requires some effort...

I've also seen the infamous "1 shot insurance" videos, maybe that's a bug... not affecting me at the moment.

dont tell people you have multipurpose asp; people will tell you how you need to specialise it though.

 

[socialdyslexic]

While I haven't been hit with the bugged pa and rail weapons (yet, but have witnessed many security vessels using them against other npc ships) I have noticed a huge nerf to player shields (non Engi modded weapons) as well as a huge buff to npc pitch rates. Those two by themselves aren't too big a deal but combined is a nightmare. I did after noticing bi weaves are now gone combined with the introduction of engi mods upgrade to the biggest shield available for my ship, hoping that would help lessen the effect but its almost like after equipping the regular shields the game is still registering them as bi weaves but with a nerf.

Also just noticed this tweet by SJA. https://twitter.com/SarahJaneAvory/status/737392681337360384
Does that mean we are not going to see any fixes for any of the ai/mod/(insert whatever here) bugs any time soon?

 

[Noddie]

I have to say i do not mind the harder AI, but, as I am pledged to ALD I am being jumped by NPCs who are also empire, ALD, etc and after defending myself i get a message in the comms window saying i am a traitor. I am not the wanted flyer, so what gives?

You're wanted in another system, and they have a KWS. Clean up your act! :-D

You CANNOT fire until fired upon - so long as you're not wanted, the moment they fire on you they will be (unless is an anarchic system) and you can kill them without getting wanted. However, it will still effect your rep. So don't, unless you have a excellent reason to.

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15 MINUTES
Thats how long it took for a FVCKING Hauler to get down to 25% Hull ! I'm in my 'Conda - but it took 15 MINUTES using all calibers of Pips and FA-OFF because I Just couldn't get him in my sights!
Going ROUND AND ROUND AND ROUND AND ROUND in Circles throughout that 15 minutes! I wish I had Fraps on! I probably will the next time - but this Combat is UTTER Nonsense!
As to the constant argument that "So a small ship has to be in your sights" from some commanders - is the Point of a game to have Fun ? At 25% I said FVCK IT and jumped to SC.

The Engineers is a great expansion - this AI has turned the combat into a frustrating hair pulling Mess - FIX IT FD! Read the TOO HARD statistic!
This is NOT FUN!

Hah - yes, I know this one. The trick is to use your superior firepower and durability to your advantage, as he's using his agility to his.

Don't get into a dogfight with this guy, you won't be able to win what is - essentially - a turning contest. Turrets will help here (it doesn't take much to melt a hauler). But if you tactics don't work against a foe, switch them up until you find some that do.

 

[Kayweg]

I'm only ranked 'mostly harmless' I think so I'm not in danger of that one any time soon, but I still disagree with the fact NPCs can have modded weapons but my commander can't.

As for treating the cause - I believe I suggested that - the root problem is improving the experience for more skilled commanders. That should be addressed without making the game other people bought less fun, and I suggested how other games and how E: D could.

Be careful not to put too much trust into that, at least not for the time being. I'm combat rank Novice and have been interdicted (and on one occasion killed) by deadly and elite NPC.
If in doubt, just leg it.

 

[Flippimonkey]

So I finally spent some time in combat. I used a Vulture set up with Class C internals and a Large Beam, Large Multi, and no mods. First attempt I got beat up pretty bad by an Elite Python in a High Res. Went to station repaired and did some thinking.

Went back to High Res and decided to beat around with the security and approach targets with more thought. Half hour later I was 3 million richer and still going strong.

I think the issue here is patience. I was able to get more kills, better bounties, and be relatively safe as long as I stuck near security. Also it felt like I was part of a large wing. Which was awesome! There were a few times I hit the security ships, but I didn't get flagged as wanted. Of course these were all accidents, and from what I was able to observe as long as I didn't have them specifically target and immediately backed off they didn't go after me. Not sure if this is totally accurate, but if it is true it is a welcome change.

Another thing I noticed was as I was going through kills my rep was increasing, and I was getting immediate updates on it. As that happened the Security AI seemed to stick closer to me and even thanked me a few times.

Again, this may have always been there, and I am just now noticing it.

Either way I am enjoying the changes.

 

[Miko_Stargazer]

I've done some experimentation flying a T6 to see if I'd get unreasonably attacked with 2.1. I'm an Expert rated pilot and flying around a vulture I routinely get interdicted by FAS, pythons etc.

T6 build is here. Could be better built but went with what I had at the time. I didn't run up against any large shipsships, I'm double checking my recordings but I think the worst might have been a Vulture. If I had been interdicted by a python my goose might have been cooked, though the fact I wasn't may indicate that the NPC difficulty also scales for trade rank, or for ships, or for security status of systems, or all of these factors combined.

When I was interdicted I found running a chaff-SCB-heatsink-hiwake combo with some minor evasive maneuvers made me escape everything with at least 2 rings of shields still in place. The biggest thing is you can't try to boost away, that just gives the Ai a stationary target and they will unload on you. Flying as though you're dog-fighting has seemed to work well. It's the same principle, you're maneuvering to stay out of the enemy's firing arc as much as possible. Just in this case you're waiting for friendship to fully charge.

I'm also going to do some flying in a startup-winder and a slightly upgraded Sidewinder and see how I fair. So far I've already found that a starter sidewinder is just as capable of getting bounties from pythons and anacondas as long as you let the police do most of the work and play conservatively.

 

[kepler84]

I think thats already happening. Maybe the lower rank NPCs are still a bit too good. And maybe only deadly/elite NPCs should have access to engineer upgrades. I think that would also bring the perceived AI "skill" down a bit (that and squishing the few obvious bugs that are currently being reported all over the forums).

That might be a good idea.

How about keeping Elite pilots just the way they currently are, but tuning down the difficulty of the rest of the ranks?

Those who seek for a challenge will still be able to find it, while the rest of us will just have to learn to get the hell out when one of those ELITE pilots decides to ruin our day. Even beginners should be able to learn the "do not mess with the Elite" rule fairly easily.

Everybody wins, I think.

 

[Envy661]

WELP... I just flew into a Threat 2 USS (distress call) and I got to experience the AI bug. three ships half the size of my vulture had an insane rate of rife for their weapons and dropped my shield boosted shields in a matter of seconds. I barely managed to escape with 33% hull and having to do a reboot/repair to get my thrusters back online. SOMEHOW I survived because I lost thrusters while going at my maximum velocity. They went back for their prey while I drifted off into space.

Any word on a fix for this? And what about the community goal? I was trying to participate in it, but that's not really working in this circumstance with this bug.

 

[Noddie]

Hmm. I wouldn't start making any changes to the AI at this juncture. Here is why;


I think a whole bunch of issues (in the sense of "things we're discussing", not in the sense of "problems we need to fix") are being confused and I think it would be very easy to make quickfire changes and end up "chasing dials".


Yes. The new AI is tougher, at it's extreme. But I think a few things have made that appear as a massive problem, when in fact it isn't.


Crime and punishment has been, I think it's fair to say, "placeholdered" since the initial release. Now it isn't - it's working as it should. Unfortunately a lot of people have taken advantage of the fact that it wasn't working to commit a lot of crime and build up quite a history and a bounty that didn't matter until last thursday night. It isn't their fault, that is how the game was at the time and this I want to be very clear that this is an observation, not a critisism of those people. I did a few Robigo runs myself out of curiosity. It should be quite rare to come across a top-tier bounty-hunter as the risks associated criminality should put people off overreaching themselves (except it didn't, as there weren't any). A week ago people were complaining how there were no consequenes to criminality in the game. In a few days people will adjust their reputations (one way, or the other) and won't be facing the top-tier bobba fett characters they are unless they've taken the decision to accept that risk.


There are bugs in the implimentation of certain weapons, when used by AI. Yes, some AI ships are able to one-shot players, or spam plasma etc. But that has absolutely nothing to do with their improved behavior. If the bugged weapons are removed from the game until fixed, this problem will go away.


These is a third possible issue - that engineer's weapons are too powerful and may need to be rebalanced. But that may just being the "one shot" bug and people making assumptions that their death was due to intentionally overpowered weapon, rather than down to unintended behavior.


Forthly. The old AI was so weak that people expect to routinely win practically ANY encounter and aren't used to having to run away. This is a new skill to be learned and if you were never a trader you might never have needed it. The ability to judge when to run is now paramount.


Fifthly. You can now accept ANY mission, regardless of your rank and experience. Even if you have no realistic hope of completing it at this stage of your career. The game no longer cares if you overreach yourself and play with the big boys long before you're ready.


And I think those things (and maybe one-or-two others) have led to people criticising the new AI unnecessarilly. I wouldn't make any behavioral changes to the AI until the dust from the launch has settled, people have learned the new features, and the bugs squashed and everything is operating as intended. Then take a look at it and make tweaks where necessary.

I say... Fix the unintended behaviour, then see where you are. Trying to rebalance a system with known issues, used by people who aren't using it right (yet!) is an exercise in frustration!

 

[Bazil]

There is a way we can all get what we want

The Problem

We have two conflicting groups. One wishes the AI / NPCs to be challenging to be in combat with; one wishes to do other things in the game without having to have a combat vessel and having a reasonable chance at survival.

Making the AI a challenge for one group means it is too hard for the other, making it easy for casual players / traders / miners / smugglers etc. means it isn't a challenge for the first group.

The solution seems easy. Link the difficulty of the AI to the player's combat rank. After all, a Deadly Python pirate probably isn't going to find it worthwhile chasing a Mostly harmless Adder for a few tonnes, they want to go after something bigger with more valuable cargo.

Properly scaled, the AI can be easy for Harmless and totally nails for the top two ranks. Everyone can play how they like and someone casual or with a different aim doesn't rank up in combat so isn't likely to meet the hardest AI going about their business (though it is still possible). If someone isn't good enough to cope with the AI at Novice, they will never get to Competent and will stall on that level until they do get good enough to move up.
Obviously, if a harmless pilot goes into a HazRes or CZ they will meet far harder AI, or if they take certain missions they could meet AI for a harder combat rank but that would be their choice at their risk. They could also play in a way to minimise the risk. That can work, although I guess FD need to do a bit more programming to implement it and balance the lower ranks and progression.

The problem with this is that people are already in the game and have already gone up the combat rankings. They can't go back down as it stands so are fairly stuck unless they wipe their progress and restart. Explorers and traders won't want to restart from scratch and lose their non-combat progress. This is the thing that needs the solution.

What possible solutions are there?
A one-off voluntary reset of combat ranks down to harmless for any that want it. I guess that would work although you may get griefers going down too so they can be more stealth when griefing.
Making combat ranking able to go down as a result of ship destruction. Seems reasonable, a sports pro won't stay ranked in the top 10 if his/her performances decline in relation to other players. League teams can be relegated. The problem there might be that some players are in far too high a rank for their current skills so would have to die and lose a lot of ships to get down to their correct new combat rank.

 

[Cmdr Alexei Jaeger]

The vast majority have voted that the AI is either too hard or fine the way it is. This is a fairly binary response so using a Scale of 0% = pre 2.1 level & 100% = post 2.1 level what AI would be the best balance for the Game going forward.

For me I think around 80%. Toned down a bit but still challenging.

 

[Maxxgold]

Way to hard now and not fun at all for a casual player. Ships I could handle now blow me out of space. If I do kill them it takes forever and I have to go repair afterwards. To much of a time sink now. I'll be back if they adjust it.

 

[deMangler]

I voted just right. Previously to this update I was basically farming npc's even using keyboard and mouse. Now there is challenge and I do not always win.
I am starting to enjoy the game.
I think there needs to be a clear spectrum of difficulty based on the security/politics of the system so that players can choose the threat level but it is nothing but good that NPC's are finally not just a way of farming rank and credits.
Good job FD.

 

[Bazil]

I guess thats one of the reasons why so many people are unhappy with the upgraded AI: the game didnt really inform us that planning a safe route for travelling from A to B is essential now (that, or getting an escort).

Or to get to a high-sec system before the update came in.

 

[Mohenjo]

Honestly, I'm not certain the AI was ever the problem. Let me explain.

Now, this is something I've seen happen in EVERY game I've ever played. In essence, the problem is the PLAYERS not the NPCs.


It begins when the players first come to the game. The NPCs are a decent challenge through most of the game, but eventually, the players take escalating measures to make their characters more and more powerful, until the enemies that USED to be a challenge become trivial. It's not that the enemies are any less powerful than before, they simply can't match what the players have done TO THEMSELVES. Those same enemies are STILL a challenge to newer players or players without all the elite gear.

But then the twinked out players complain that the enemies are no threat, no challenge. They never consider that THEY THEMSELVES are the ones who have rendered those NPC enemies trivial. Eventually, the developers buckle and the enemies are buffed. The result of that is they can now challenge the twinked out veterans, but newer or less geared players get slaughtered. Now, that's not any fun, so they're not likely to stay and play. No one comes to be cannon fodder, least of all for NPCs, we play for our enjoyment.

I've seen it over and over, and I'm seeing it again. The enemies in the game are being twinked out with the ultra-mega-super elite gear, AND given the potentially gamebreaking Engineer abilities and gear. It's the beginning of the slippery slope. Eventually the players will be twinked out with all the gear in the universe and the call for harder AI will rise again. Of course, by then most of the game will be inaccessable to newer players or traders or explorers, so that last few players will get to play with hard NPCs for a little while longer before the game dies.

I'm an example myself.

I'm a pretty decent pilot. I've flown flight sims a long time. Even so, I've never found the enemies in this game trivial. Indeed, I've OFTEN been overwhelmed by them (usually because they fight in huge groups...). I stopped investigating signals - weak, strong, distress, whatever - because I know there was no way for me to survive an encounter with an enemy ship... and that was BEFORE this update. What am I expected to do now? I used to be able to fight back against an enemy while flying my T6, one beam laser and decent shields. Now, there's NO WAY, and from what I'm hearing, no escape either. Unable to fight OR run, there's no game to play.

That's a problem, and a HUGE ONE in the making. This has to be resolved, and carefully. The very future of the game hangs in the balance. Make it too hard and you WILL lose your traders, your explorers and perhaps most seriously, your NEW PLAYERS. If that happens, it's all over.

 

[frostypaw]

The solution seems easy. Link the difficulty of the AI to the player's combat rank. After all, a Deadly Python pirate probably isn't going to find it worthwhile chasing a Mostly harmless Adder for a few tonnes, they want to go after something bigger with more valuable cargo.

Pretty much exactly how it's meant to be working, and it's the solution I favour.

A few folk might need their criminal records wiped too, but I think that's what the reset save button is for

 

[Zeta Legion]

Honestly, I'm not certain the AI was ever the problem. Let me explain.

Now, this is something I've seen happen in EVERY game I've ever played. In essence, the problem is the PLAYERS not the NPCs.


It begins when the players first come to the game. The NPCs are a decent challenge through most of the game, but eventually, the players take escalating measures to make their characters more and more powerful, until the enemies that USED to be a challenge become trivial. It's not that the enemies are any less powerful than before, they simply can't match what the players have done TO THEMSELVES. Those same enemies are STILL a challenge to newer players or players without all the elite gear.

But then the twinked out players complain that the enemies are no threat, no challenge. They never consider that THEY THEMSELVES are the ones who have rendered those NPC enemies trivial. Eventually, the developers buckle and the enemies are buffed. The result of that is they can now challenge the twinked out veterans, but newer or less geared players get slaughtered. Now, that's not any fun, so they're not likely to stay and play. No one comes to be cannon fodder, least of all for NPCs, we play for our enjoyment.

I've seen it over and over, and I'm seeing it again. The enemies in the game are being twinked out with the ultra-mega-super elite gear, AND given the potentially gamebreaking Engineer abilities and gear. It's the beginning of the slippery slope. Eventually the players will be twinked out with all the gear in the universe and the call for harder AI will rise again. Of course, by then most of the game will be inaccessable to newer players or traders or explorers, so that last few players will get to play with hard NPCs for a little while longer before the game dies.

I'm an example myself.

I'm a pretty decent pilot. I've flown flight sims a long time. Even so, I've never found the enemies in this game trivial. Indeed, I've OFTEN been overwhelmed by them (usually because they fight in huge groups...). I stopped investigating signals - weak, strong, distress, whatever - because I know there was no way for me to survive an encounter with an enemy ship... and that was BEFORE this update. What am I expected to do now? I used to be able to fight back against an enemy while flying my T6, one beam laser and decent shields. Now, there's NO WAY, and from what I'm hearing, no escape either. Unable to fight OR run, there's no game to play.

That's a problem, and a HUGE ONE in the making. This has to be resolved, and carefully. The very future of the game hangs in the balance. Make it too hard and you WILL lose your traders, your explorers and perhaps most seriously, your NEW PLAYERS. If that happens, it's all over.

There's definitely some truth to this.

There ought to be places where the super-geared players can find a challenge (think boss type NPCs) without making every single fight extremely frustrating for newer players, or simply not worth the time to engage for average players.

 

[Hexen]

New AI seems just right to me. It can be a bit more difficult but sometimes you want to get away even if you made mistake. So just right.


Fights became more personal now so good job.