Discuss the AI here!

[Bogen]

Sorry guys, but... is this video representative of the "bug"?

Starting at 1.10 (second FAS engaged):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yj7--umXzw4

Because if so, i make these observations:

NPC:
1) has a nice modded blue "gatling of death" dealing "a lot of dps".
2) seems like fitted with upgraded armor also.

Player:
1) 1 pips to sys (Really? pre-2.0 standard behavior for piloting 'condas?? )
2) Continuosly flies right into the stream of plasma even when it's clear its hurting him A LOT.
3) KB+M control not really mastered.
4) Haz rez.

Result = BOOM expected sooner or later IMO.


Again, if the video isn't representing a NPC in "bugged" state then dismiss my observations.

 

[udr1000]

OK, hopped in the vulture and took on a kill 16 pirates mission, got most of my kills by interdicting, never even lost shields and as a combat player, I'm not that good...After engineers, I hopped into a haz res and got my ass handed to me real quick....in my mine-a-conda, Ive been down to under 10% twice...I am wondering if this is almost perfect......maybe ease off on the trader / miner interdictions and have a look at the one-shot killer npc's, but yeah, i'm beginning to see the light.....

 

[Queex]

I am not dismissing anything.. Bugs are exactly that.. BUGS.. meaning they are a known problem that are going to be fixed.. Bugs are a non issue to me, and if you have lost a ship due to a bug, then contact frontier, and I am certain they will refund any credits you lost.

I am ONLY talking about the level of AI combat, their tactics, their maneuverability, their aggression... People are saying NERF THE AI.. when the AI isn't the problem.. The Bugs and peoples expectations are. Frontier will fix the bugs, its up to the community to adjust their expectations and the way they interact with the AI..

Well, there's still uncertainty about whether the levels of manoeuvrability of some AI ships is a bug or intended; if it is intended then I would still say the design needs revision as it creates an unfair sense of asymmetry and leads to some decidedly unfun moments of play. The AI, potential bugs aside, doesn't seem to have changed all that much from what I've seen. No spinning tops is good. More dull looping fights is bad. So there's still some way to go even after the bugs are squashed.

The point is that right now we often simply can't tell which bits are bugs and which are by design, which muddies the waters considerably. Saying 'we need to adapt' doesn't really help because we're not sure what we're adapting to. All we can do is assess the overall impact of the patch, which currently is very definitely skewed towards 'too hard'. Telling people who might have had nightmare sessions due to bugs or poor balancing that they're just not playing right is not constructive or reasonable.

 

[vindicator jones]

Sorry guys, but... is this video representative of the "bug"?

Starting at 1.10 (second FAS engaged):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yj7--umXzw4

Because if so, i make these observations:

NPC:
1) has a nice modded blue "gatling of death" dealing "a lot of dps".
2) seems like fitted with upgraded armor also.

Player:
1) 1 pips to sys (Really? pre-2.0 standard behavior for piloting 'condas?? )
2) Continuosly flies right into the stream of plasma even when it's clear its hurting him A LOT.
3) KB+M control not really mastered.
4) Haz rez.

Result = BOOM expected sooner or later IMO.

Again, if the video isn't representing a NPC in "bugged" state then dismiss my observations.

Thats the PA gattling gun bug.. its a known issue.. It also didnt help that he has one pip into shields....

 

[Insane4un]

You have been making some really obnoxious generalisations, denigrating people who have had different experiences from you. Please stop being such a troll.

(P.S. Yes the better AI is welcome, no the overpowered weapons / bugs are not, neither is the insane amount of interdictions and scaling of NPC opponents some people have been suffering. )

(P.P.S. No I have not had an insurance screen since 2.1 went live.)

I agree that i am too much being a troll. But. I am really sad that NPC AI now will be nerf cause of these lazy players. It is not hard actualy. You just have to adapt to it. But these players just too damn lazy. They don't want do anything. That is why i sad.

 

[Cmdr Alexei Jaeger]

Rather than NPC ability being dependent just on Ranking they could be given "Personalities" in the form of a couple of hidden traits which define how good they are and what decisions they make and even the Rank they've achieved. Certain negative traits would only be on lower NPC as you don't get higher ranks if you make mistakes. This would give more variety and some surprises through the middle ranks but the top ranks should be more consistent.

A few examples below as a starter but there could be many more which can be combined in different ways to make combats feel different and varied and good pilots will look forward to and remember the hard fights and newer players wouldn't be outmatched all the time but still get ships "with their name on them" for the thrill and keeping Elite: Well ... Dangerous!

It would also be fun guessing the Personality of the NPC you just fought and create mini stories in game. "I was jumped by an arrogant nobles son in daddies paid for FDL whilst running illegal cargo to Lave yesterday and he went down faster than a (insert off colour euphemism here).

Reckless & Talented: Fights above what you'd expect from rank alone but doesn't run away and focuses on attack and unlikely to be higher rank as they probably die young.

Cautious & Experienced: Fights well and will run away when over matched.

Rich & Arrogant: In a much better ship than their ability suggests and Rank is down to better ship than most pilots start with. Easier kill than expected if the ship doesn't outmatch you.

 

[Muetdhiver]

Look, VJ has shown that a viper is viable in a HiRes. So really...

And yeah, NPC's don't stay put in you're crosshair for you to shoot them now.
I know, it was a shock for me too, I had to use pips and lateral thrusters in a HiRes, even FAOFF at times.

 

[verminstar]

Select closest star, high wake out and "reset the instance".
Rinse and repeat.

ed by uber npc...fight and die, run and probably die...death in under ten seconds

Rinse and repeat ^^

 

[YOUGONLEARN2DAY]

I think the AI ships are fine; but with that said I entered a NB and a LRZ to contribute to the CG and each time I did I was instantly attacked by 2-3 smaller ships at the same time doing ridiculous amounts of damage. My shields on my Cobra 3 are down in about 3 seconds. Something is definitely going on with the latest update. Some have stated that the AI have access to engineered weaponry which may be the case. I can't even contribute to the CG as of right now because each and every time I enter I'm attacked instantly with nothing more left for me to do than run away. That is my only main frustration with the AI

 

[vindicator jones]

Well, there's still uncertainty about whether the levels of manoeuvrability of some AI ships is a bug or intended; if it is intended then I would still say the design needs revision as it creates an unfair sense of asymmetry and leads to some decidedly unfun moments of play. The AI, potential bugs aside, doesn't seem to have changed all that much from what I've seen. No spinning tops is good. More dull looping fights is bad. So there's still some way to go even after the bugs are squashed.

The point is that right now we often simply can't tell which bits are bugs and which are by design, which muddies the waters considerably. Saying 'we need to adapt' doesn't really help because we're not sure what we're adapting to. All we can do is assess the overall impact of the patch, which currently is very definitely skewed towards 'too hard'. Telling people who might have had nightmare sessions due to bugs or poor balancing that they're just not playing right is not constructive or reasonable.

The AI is far more aggressive to get on your tail now, and that's exactly how combat should work... Also, the AI's maneuverability is exactly the same as ours, they do not have extra maneuverability or their ships have a special ability so they can turn faster.. What gives the illusion they can turn faster is that they are using their thrusters, FAOFF techniques and reverse thrusters far more effectively than a lot of human players. This is especially the case in higher level combat rated NPC's.. This has been confirmed numerous times by the Devs and Micheal Brooks himself... There are no bugs with that

I can understand why some people seem confused with the new AI.. previously they were brainless and were happy to sit there and explode for you. But the only bugs, that I know about PERSONALLY are the weapons bugs.. however perhaps there are others that I havent come across yet. So I cant comment on them.

The only thing I have noticed is the inconstancy of the level of the AI to its combat rating... but that has only been a couple of times.

I would have no problems however where frontier eased off on the difficulty curve, so that lower combat ranked NPC's had no upgrades and were a little less aggressive, but I would them to leave the higher rated combat NPC's alone.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

Sorry guys, but... is this video representative of the "bug"?

Starting at 1.10 (second FAS engaged):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yj7--umXzw4

Because if so, i make these observations:

NPC:
1) has a nice modded blue "gatling of death" dealing "a lot of dps".
2) seems like fitted with upgraded armor also.

Player:
1) 1 pips to sys (Really? pre-2.0 standard behavior for piloting 'condas?? )
2) Continuosly flies right into the stream of plasma even when it's clear its hurting him A LOT.
3) KB+M control not really mastered.
4) Haz rez.

Result = BOOM expected sooner or later IMO.


Again, if the video isn't representing a NPC in "bugged" state then dismiss my observations.

That PA sure looks bugged, shoots ridiculous fast. Alltough there was plenty of opportunity to not die.

 

[Queex]

I would have no problems however where frontier eased off on the difficulty curve, so that lower combat ranked NPC's had no upgrades and were a little less aggressive, but I would them to leave the higher rated combat NPC's alone.

I think that might only be a short-term solution, though, because combat rating will inexorably climb under the current model. Sooner or later, even the noobiest combat pilot is going to reach the levels where the AI ships are brutal.

A better approach might be to limit where those kinds of ships spawn more, making them strictly (or mostly) optional content. The great pilots can seek out those missions/combat zones/whatever, and no-one else has to worry that simply playing the game is taking them closer to getting kerb-stomped over and over again. It would also allow players to modulate what they get out of the game day to day. Others have suggested linking it to system security, but I'm not that's enough as it's already something of a pain in the backside travelling long distance if your FS range is low.

 

[Pennacchi]

Played 2.1 for first time last night; High Res for roughly an hour in a Vulture = c. 2 million credits (Zaragas). I found them more challenging, especially Cobra Mk III and below which now require a bit of finesse to target. Got hit hard by an Eagle with - I think - one of the Engineer weapon upgrades (weird colour and some message about being hit by something that I did not recognise). Conclusions:
- AI is not too hard, but it does manoeuvre better and the average DPS seems to have gone up, in some cases significantly
- Small ships are now much more of a PITA, especially in numbers, owing to their being nippier and seemingly-higher DPS
- Larger ships did not seem any harder to kill, but that may have been because I was in a nippy Vulture and was therefore benefiting from the 2.1 changes
- In general: more power management, FA-off and thruster usage now required to keep with a manoeuvring AI target but this is harder and different, not too hard IMHO

 

[Para Handy]

I agree that i am too much being a troll. But. I am really sad that NPC AI now will be nerf cause of these lazy players. It is not hard actualy. You just have to adapt to it. But these players just too damn lazy. They don't want do anything. That is why i sad.

My point is that it is not all players being lazy, they have genuine concerns - just because you have not been in those situations doesn't mean that they don't exist. People with low combat ratings are indeed coming across NPCs with much higher rating and in superior ships and with modded weaponry (leaving aside any bugged weapons) plus some people are indeed being interdicted A LOT. Some people are not and can't understand what the concern is. (There is one guy who even in 2.0 has been an absolute interdiction magnet ever since he started the game, so variations do occur.)

Yes, no doubt there are people who farmed naff AI or raised loads of credits from Robigo runs (never been there) and have "elevated" positions compared to their time in the game, conversely there are people like me who don't go in for combat but by dint of surviving over time the combat rating creeps up. You might think the first lot would belly-ache and play it down but what about the second group, the people that play the game for non-combat based occupations, they are now fair game for Elite Anacondas with impulse and thermal weapons including huge MC and lasers.

I honestly think that people will be happy if the new AI combat ability is retained but that the scaling of opponents is fixed (lots of high-rating NPCs seem to be jumping on low-rating players) and the incidence of interdictions is reconsidered. I repeat of course these things are appearing at different levels / proportions so what one person sees another might never.

The rate of interdictions might have been addressed as I had much fewer hits on me last night but those that did appear were deadly and elite in FAS upwards (I'm master in a AspE) apart from one expert CobraIV that it took me forever to fend off until it h-waked when the feds appeared - oh and one Dangerous ImpEagle who had an impressive array of rocketry but in the end he/she/it passed away. (Since 2.1 all in medium and high security systems.)

The preponderance of modded NPCs needs sorting too - apart from those bugged ones which will get sorted - I do think that needs to be scaled back A LOT.

(P.S. BTW thanks for not taking offence and seeing my point of view. Kudos to you also for not being so foul as some of the horrible things I have seen these last few days.)

 

[Javert]

See post here from Zac:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=257892

 

[Sir.Tj]

Poll closed due to official update here.

[h=3]NPC AI, Engineers and Bi-Weave shields....[/h]
Thanks all.

 

[Para Handy]

See post here from Zac:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=257892

Absolutely brilliant news - dumping modded weapons from the AI is a great move.

 

[Cmdr Alexei Jaeger]

Look, VJ has shown that a viper is viable in a HiRes. So really...

And yeah, NPC's don't stay put in you're crosshair for you to shoot them now.
I know, it was a shock for me too, I had to use pips and lateral thrusters in a HiRes, even FAOFF at times.

I love VJ videos as well but I took a slightly different conclusion from that Video. This isn't meant to invalidate your point just seemed a good place to note my observation.

For a lot of the Video he was backed up by an NPC System Security Anaconda and several smaller Security Ships all with the improved AI so more effective. He was also attacking larger ships but still found he had to work hard to keep his position.

Whilst that is definitely a good thing, scale that up with more agile ships when you have their full attention and combat goes more like the opening fight with the Cobra in the Video. You can still come out on top just about if the ship doesn't outclass you or have better Engineer Mods than you.

I don't want go back to pre 2.1 levels they were awful once you have a bit of experience. I'm glad there has been an update to the AI but I think it needs turning down a notch. Outside of Res sites you don't always get to pick your opponent or have backup. You may not always be in the best Ship for the Job either.

 

[Boomer Kay]

Outside of Res sites you don't always get to pick your opponent or have backup.

In high security systems, system security is there in about 30 seconds.
Only need to make sure to survive these 30 seconds, which will definitely be easier now the imba stuff is removed from NPCs.

I'd still recommend practicing non-cheese interdiction evasive manouvers. You might want to go to low sec one day and engineer modifications might be back sooner or later.

Oh, and Thargoids.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Poll closed due to official update here.

NPC AI, Engineers and Bi-Weave shields....


Thanks all.

Can we start, new fresh thread for feedback? As NPCs will be without mods and on equal footing....So we also start fresh to discuss these changes.