Multi-Role Commanders

[SnowyNI]

How about you be more clear, and stop replying in Caps, being rude to people here to help....

Have you read some of the replies he got? Rude? Lol. Abandon all hope, ye who enters *here!

*Here being the forums, it gets worse each day, and always for the victims!

 

[Vasious]

Again, NPC rank should be based almost purely on the environment the player choses to play in, not on the player himself. Want excitement? Go to a place where you'll find it. Want milk runs? Go to a place where you wont find excitement.
Scaling NPCs in the way it's being done is a terrible idea. It's immersion breaking and shuts off gameplay options. There's no reason one player should forever have less long term options than another just because he's done more of one activity in a game where you can't easily start anew. When you are being interdicted by Elite NPCs every 6 jumps, even in high sec systems, just because you have a high combat rank regardless of what you're flying, you just can't afford to not use a tank build to even survive until you can highwake. On the other hand another player with potentially more time played but less of that time spent doing combat activities can happily fly a shieldless ship because the NPCs they'll face are pushovers. How does that fit with the whole 'play the way you want' idea?

I have seen no evidence that NPCs spawn based on your combat rank.
They seem to spawn based on the rank of missions, which you can choose to take or not, but I have seen all ranges of NPCs depending on what system states are and what system security is.

 

[Jukelo]

I have seen no evidence that NPCs spawn based on your combat rank.
They seem to spawn based on the rank of missions, which you can choose to take or not, but I have seen all ranges of NPCs depending on what system states are and what system security is.

Since the update I have been consistently interdicted by two dozens Dangerous and up to Elite NPCs whatever the security status of the system. Some of those were pirates when I was testing whether trading was still boring as sin, and the rest were bounty hunters coming after my 'mighty' 40k bounty. Yesterday I was mightily surprised when a Novice sidewinder interdicted me, but that was it. My combat rank is Dangerous.
No mission was involved all this time. I have done two missions since the update, but wasn't interdicted during either of them.

 

[Han Brannigan]

Again, NPC rank should be based almost purely on the environment the player choses to play in, not on the player himself. Want excitement? Go to a place where you'll find it. Want milk runs? Go to a place where you wont find excitement.
Scaling NPCs in the way it's being done is a terrible idea. It's immersion breaking and shuts off gameplay options. There's no reason one player should forever have less long term options than another just because he's done more of one activity in a game where you can't easily start anew.

Disagree what is immersion breaking is not scaling some of the NPCs. Why would a harmless Pirate in an Eagle try and attack a Condo Python piloted by a well known bounty hunter. Assisted suicide?
When it comes to missions the NPCs scale according to the missions rank.

When you are being interdicted by Elite NPCs every 6 jumps, even in high sec systems, just because you have a high combat rank regardless of what you're flying, you just can't afford to not use a tank build to even survive until you can highwake.

Wrong. Or maybe we have a different definition of tank build.

On the other hand another player with potentially more time played but less of that time spent doing combat activities can happily fly a shieldless ship because the NPCs they'll face are pushovers. How does that fit with the whole 'play the way you want' idea?

Shieldless traders should not work anywhere (imo) - but yes a T7 piloted by a low ranked Pilot should be attacked by weaker opponents to. ( not only weak ones so I partially agree but the spread should be bigger )

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Have you read some of the replies he got? Rude? Lol.

Not one of them was half as rude as OPs answers.

 

[Siranui]

Glad I wasn't the only one thinking 'wow, we're trying to help and this guy is just hurling it back at us'.

People being here to help? So why do i get the feeling that half the posts in here are just Forum warriors telling me to "get gud" , "adapt or die" in some form or another?
Some people just derail the Thread to call me whining about the AI-changes and dont get it that im concerned that my combat rank will hamper every other area then combat...

So,, you don't actually want to take on board any advice people are trying to offer - who you are being rude to by way of a thanks - but just to state that you don't like something and for people to agree?

Don't you want to improve as a player, to the point where the improved AI won't be a problem for you? Are you genuinely happier dying repeatedly under its guns?

 

[kalniel]

*if* one has to have NPC scaling based on player experience (as opposed to more easily telegraphed ideas like level appropriate to area danger) then using combat rank makes sense. What that doesn't allow for is scaling based on the current ship choice. This seems sensible, but it's annoying as it might imply that once you have ranked combat you need to stay in your combat vessel - otherwise to balance NPCs levels to provide a fun challenge to the player in different ship types is too hard.

Should we have that kind of balance per ship type? Yes IMHO - if you're already breaking immersion by scaling by rank rather than area then you might as well go the whole hog and scale per encounter. Otherwise a whole chunk of game content becomes less fun - I LOVE the idea of slowly upgrading a ship through different grades of modules.. but that becomes meaningless content if you have to A spec ships before they are viable. Ditto if the game equates play time with skill level too strongly.

But ultimately, area based difficulty is the easiest way to make sure that players can choose the difficulty of challenge based on their skill, experience, and particular ship type/loading. And by all means gate those areas by combat rank if you need a differentiator.

 

[Moonax IRL]

Where did i state that i did NOT mine somewhere in the Ring away from all Zones? or that i was attacked WHILE mining? People need to learn to READ before posting assumptions i think..

EDIT: THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT BEING KILLED BY NPC BUT THE FACT THAT YOUR COMBAT RANK WILL HAMPER YOUR DOINGS IN OTHER AREAS....

Point still stands, it's easy to jump away.

 

[Vasious]

Since the update I have been consistently interdicted by two dozens Dangerous and up to Elite NPCs whatever the security status of the system. Some of those were pirates when I was testing whether trading was still boring as sin, and the rest were bounty hunters coming after my 'mighty' 40k bounty. Yesterday I was mightily surprised when a Novice sidewinder interdicted me, but that was it. My combat rank is Dangerous.
No mission was involved all this time. I have done two missions since the update, but wasn't interdicted during either of them.

"bounty hunters coming after my 'mighty' 40k bounty." That is not no reason

What if you were clean

My Cmdr is rated Expert but more often than not it is Mostly Harmless and competent Pirates, but not very often, but occasionally a Deadly or Dangerous, so I fail to see a weighting or cause based on Combat rank

 

[SnowyNI]

Not one of them was half as rude as OPs answers.

Ahh right, and makes it ok? I'm going to have a ball later then on some clowns I run into on here. Can I forward all the mod warnings on to you kind sir?

 

[Moonax IRL]

People being here to help? So why do i get the feeling that half the posts in here are just Forum warriors telling me to "get gud" , "adapt or die" in some form or another?
Some people just derail the Thread to call me whining about the AI-changes and dont get it that im concerned that my combat rank will hamper every other area then combat...

Due to the fact you're really here to whine and want the game to simplify to suit you. You are reluctant to want to improve the way you play.

Edit. If people put as much effort into playing the game properly than starting these threads they might find their own solution.
Also ease up on the caps, it looks childish.

 

[Jukelo]

Disagree what is immersion breaking is not scaling some of the NPCs. Why would a harmless Pirate in an Eagle try and attack a Condo Python piloted by a well known bounty hunter. Assisted suicide?

Oh I agree with you, some NPCs should be scaled, that's why I said 'almost purely'. Mission NPCs, or NPCs sent by some faction you're hostile with for example.

When it comes to missions the NPCs scale according to the missions rank.

See above.

Wrong. Or maybe we have a different definition of tank build.

By tank build I'm refering to a trade ship that can survive more than 15 seconds under fire from the Elite Pythons I've met in high security systems recently. This means a ship with more than ~1200hp. To achieve that you need to sacrifice a fair bit of cargo space in any trade ship for example.

Shieldless traders should not work anywhere (imo) - but yes a T7 piloted by a low ranked Pilot should be attacked by weaker opponents to. ( not only weak ones so I partially agree but the spread should be bigger )

I'd be fine with shieldless traders not working anywhere, if it affected everyone equally and became the baseline expectation for the game for everyone. As for your opinion that a lower combat rank should mean weaker opponents... maybe. IMO, in this scenario, higher combat rank should have two effects. Make your opponents stronger (so yeah, enemy scaling), but at the same time make them rarer. Although that's probably something better linked to the actual equipment on your ship (an Elite pilot in a Type 9 is still flying a Type 9 after all..) Atm it looks like the whole galaxy is inhabited by Elite NPCs, and they're all coming after you. And since they're basically just scripted spawns with no rhyme or reason beyond making things harder for the player (regardless of whether that's what the player wants at this point), you have no other way of dealing with it in a more pro-active way than by simply tanking up your build to survive the encounter. Which is fine if like me you almost always fly combat capable ships, but even I realize forcing players to adapt in such a way to a playstyle they don't enjoy is not a good idea. We have such a big game world with thousands of potential combinations of governments, BGS states, security status, there should be room for everyone.

 

[Jamie Wolf]

Since the last hotfix that removed the "superweapons" from the NPCs wer are again on a more even footing.
Got interdicted by 3 courriers, and in my Python (quite similar setup to the one of Hutzl, just with all Beams and C rated Thrusters and Powerplant).
Could hold myself damaging one of them until Securityforces showed up helping with a cleanup of the guys.

Late had an Anaconda against me, could take out her shields, but it got intense as she also did some damage, again security showed up, giving me time to regroup, and go in again.
But the Conda switched fire as soon as I got close ignoring the police. had to hightail after I got into a light collision with the Conda and was on 1% huill.

The weapons are now back to pre 2.1, good shields are again worth their money.
NPCs now jsut seem to have either godlike flying skills or maneuvering thrusters that are very good. Against the Anaconda when we did a headon pass, even when I whipped the Python around with thrusters up, and FA off, as soon as I got teh Cond in my sight she was already positioned for another pass and firing, so her turn was much quicker and tighter then mine.
I also had the feeling that the Condas shields regenerated much quicker then they should be able, something I will keep an eye on.

On the other hand the armorpiercing of the beamlasers seems to have vastly improved. shield stripping was always efficient, but now even armor melts quite quickly under a beam assault

Against smaller ships forget to try turnbattles, zoom and boom seems now be the better option in a bigger ship.
If they are close there is no way you can outturn them, you need some distance from them, then it is managable.

Security forces are now the best friend of slower ships, draw out the battle for 30 seconds until they arrive. IN anarchy systems just put all in shields and engines and get out as fast as you can if you get interdicted by superior forces.

The times are now over when a single Eagle would interdict your Python, now its either s wing of small ships or something of similar size and power.

Think I will switch the medium lasers for turrets to keep the pesky little ships occupied.

 

[Droid8Apple]

I agree with OP, past combat experience should not affect current NPC rank spawning

Though I'm not aware of any official confirmation that this is actually what is happening(maybe we all are just getting very unlucky with NPC spawning?)

2 Possible solutions for this that still caters for players who WANT only elite NPC's:
1. Have a general supercruise spawning rate for everyone from Harmless to Elite, let higher ranked players "see" more USS with higher threat levels
(Not sure how combat zones and extraction sites would work though, an average based on all players in the instance?)

2. Have a player's NPC spawn rate be tied to their ship instead of combat rank
-Kill more NPC's or players to increase ship 'reputation'
-Reduce(or maybe reset completely) ship 'reputation' on each death
-Combat rank works as a multiplier, so a kill by an Elite player counts 5x as much as a kill by a Harmless one
-NPC's (or rather the system that spawn them) see the ship rank/reputation and thinks "Oh no, the SS LotsOfGuns! I have to be at least an Expert to deal with that"
-Refitting your ship from max combat to shieldless trading won't do anything to it's reputation since everyone won't instantly know CMDR FightsALot became a pacifist - at least until they get blown up by pirates
-Switching ships gives you a whole new reputation, based on what that ship did previously
-This could also be applied (in a much-slower-to-gain-reputation version) to trading/exploring since word could come out about your success and make you a juicy target
-The idea of this should be separate from the already existing player reputation system, since you meet NPC's face-to-face for missions and police shouldn't care if that wanted criminal is in the ship he destroyed a thousand wedding barges* in, or an exploration Asp


*Though if any player does this, they should be rewarded with an exclusive skin for their ship of choice![up]

Without reading your whole post, I just want to say that I think it sucks that this is the only game where the length of time you have played can impact your experience so negatively. We shouldn't have to be worrying about if we've played long enough to be elite affecting us negatively since that is the only thing to really accomplish. We shouldn't even have to have these conversations. Bass Ackwards game we play isn't it? Lol.

 

[Han Brannigan]

By tank build I'm refering to a trade ship that can survive more than 15 seconds under fire from the Elite Pythons I've met in high security systems recently. This means a ship with more than ~1200hp.

Not without the buggy guns they had. Also Shield + Hull 1200 is not that much...

I'd be fine with shieldless traders not working anywhere, if it affected everyone equally and became the baseline expectation for the game for everyone.

Agreed

IMO, in this scenario, higher combat rank should have two effects. Make your opponents stronger (so yeah, enemy scaling), but at the same time make them rarer.

That is exactly what I meant. Hav ethe same potential NPCs flying around - but have only Pirates who have a possibility of success ( and the occasional overconfident/desperate noob NPC pirate ) try to pull you out of FS ( actually it happend to me twice yesterday that I got scanned and afterwards the would be Pirate said sth like no thanks you seem to be to much for me )

Although that's probably something better linked to the actual equipment on your ship (an Elite pilot in a Type 9 is still flying a Type 9 after all..)

Agreed. Hence why my example weak cmdr was flying a T7 ( lots of booty not so good at running away or defending itself = juicy target )

Atm it looks like the whole galaxy is inhabited by Elite NPCs, and they're all coming after you. And since they're basically just scripted spawns with no rhyme or reason beyond making things harder for the player (regardless of whether that's what the player wants at this point), you have no other way of dealing with it in a more pro-active way than by simply tanking up your build to survive the encounter. Which is fine if like me you almost always fly combat capable ships, but even I realize forcing players to adapt in such a way to a playstyle they don't enjoy is not a good idea. We have such a big game world with thousands of potential combinations of governments, BGS states, security status, there should be room for everyone.

I have had a different experience - Yes I have had Elite AI (trying mostly I evade) to interdict me and if they are successful they tend to make me run away - but this has only happened if I took on high ranking missions.
My Combat rank is dangerous and I fly a unmoded A graded multipurpose Python (no armor or scbs but max shields and fully weaponized ).

Id say we agree on most points but had a slightly different experience and hence POV.

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Ahh right, and makes it ok?

No but it makes me far less inclined to cut him slack ( or even take him serious ) when he whines about ppl being unhelpful.

 

[Bretzel]

... forcing players to adapt in such a way to a playstyle they don't enjoy is not a good idea. We have such a big game world with thousands of potential combinations of governments, BGS states, security status, there should be room for everyone.

Agreed.. nobody should be forced to have to adapt a certain playstyle as long Elite is called a sandbox and is advertised with "blaze your own trail" .. that would be like in a Fantasy RPG suddenly you only can use one class like a Paladin to get anything done... or only fly a certain Plane in Warthunder , because all others arent viable... or only use the F15 in DCS because no other Plane can be used effectively anymore....

 

[DukeIronHand]

Again, NPC rank should be based almost purely on the environment the player choses to play in, not on the player himself. Want excitement? Go to a place where you'll find it. Want milk runs? Go to a place where you wont find excitement.
Scaling NPCs in the way it's being done is a terrible idea. It's immersion breaking and shuts off gameplay options. There's no reason one player should forever have less long term options than another just because he's done more of one activity in a game where you can't easily start anew. When you are being interdicted by Elite NPCs every 6 jumps, even in high sec systems, just because you have a high combat rank regardless of what you're flying, you just can't afford to not use a tank build to even survive until you can highwake. On the other hand another player with potentially more time played but less of that time spent doing combat activities can happily fly a shieldless ship because the NPCs they'll face are pushovers. How does that fit with the whole 'play the way you want' idea?

Well said! In fact so much so I will quote it again for all to see as it seems the point of this thread is drifting...as usual.
Hope FD is reading.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

Don't really understand people claiming that you can't do this or that anymore. I am someone who does pretty much everything, since 2.1 has gone live I have done a bit of almost everything, missions, trading, combat zones, Bounty hunting and some mining. Works all fine, only exploring I haven't really done in 2.1, a little bit of flying around in my exploration asp currently, scanned a inhabited Anarchy system got interdicted a few times nothing bad happend. Not sure why people claim you can't do it because of npcs, you can do everything just fine since escaping from a attacker is still not all that difficult.

 

[Tim Reaper]

I tend to agree; since the update when flying my Conda or Cutter I've been interdicted by only Elite Condas and the occasional Elite Python whilst I've been trading. Given that the first time it happened in the Conda I did my usual and had a pop back and I got taken down to ~30% hull without even taking down the Python's shields before I escaped, I have since taken the view that running is the only course of action every time, Brave Sir Robin would be proud. Which is frankly boring, it was nice every once in a while to get to fight back, which is why I slapped some guns and worthwhile shielding (6A with multiple boosters) on. It seems that's just wasted now and I may as well just ditch the guns and downgrade shields/modules. For the record I'm rated Dangerous/Tycoon/Ranger.

 

[Ian Skippy]

When you have a high rank in combat yoi loterally murdered thousands of people. Ofcourse thats gonna bite you in the back at some point...

 

[Eshackleton]

I think they may have fixed the mining. When 2.1 releases I decided to do some mining. I didn't go to a resource site I instead just went to a random spot in a ring because I just wanted to find new materials. Unfortunately this didn't work because I kept getting scanned by pirates who were constantly jumping in just to scan me.
Finally, I think it may be fixed I tried again a couple days ago in same spot and an elite FDL scanned me and this time I was carrying cargo. So I dumped a few tons of cargo and ran. Unfortunately, he kept shooting me. Just before my shields went down 5 or 6 system security ships jumped in and clobbered the FDL for me. Not only did I survive but I collected a 170,000 cr bounty! The SS just kinda hung around there the rest of the time that I mined and I never saw another pirate. It seems that the security are getting better. This may be because I was in a high security system or just random luck. But it was exciting and fun!