Opinion: Engineers is a side activity which rewards varied playing style

[Archvillain]

Has anyone ever regretted wiping their save?

Call me a horder, but I think I'll eventually buy another account and start fresh that way. That way you don't lose your existing account if you change your mind, and FDev gets some more dev money.

Or, for an even more delux approach, if you can tactically wait a few months, wait for them to offer the lifetime pass again prior to Season 3, then get a new account that way! (I don't know if they'll offer it, but I'm guessing they will)

 

[Archvillain]

Engineers requires, among other things, actual commodities that are either bought, scavenged from a planet or mined from asteroids. As some of these commodities are very rare and difficult to find, combined with the fact you have no storage capability, that means once you start down an upgrade path you're committed to it regardless.
That would not be my interpretation of a "side" activity.

That just means you treat any commodities as the final step of the side-quest and don't worry about them until all the other materials are already checked off. It's a way of adding a slightly higher level of difficulty to those side missions that are offering more powerful rewards.

In other games with side-missions it's similar; the more powerful side-missions usually get to a point where they'll naturally become your main focus for a while to complete them, before you resume what you were doing before.

(And in my shoes at least, commodities could kick around in the cargo for quite a while without me worrying about them. They're pretty safe back there. I don't seek PvP or fair fights so my ship doesn't get destroyed)

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I do not agree with your assessment as the facts in the game don't support your thinking.

Horizons is a side game as all items required are permanent post death as you store them outside your ship (in the magic pockets on your suit )

Engineers requires, among other things, actual commodities that are either bought, scavenged from a planet or mined from asteroids. As some of these commodities are very rare and difficult to find, combined with the fact you have no storage capability, that means once you start down an upgrade path you're committed to it regardless. (You can't store commodities and transferring them to another ship requires you set up cargo space in advance prior to swapping ships)

That would not be my interpretation of a "side" activity.

Not having gone down the engineers path yet, what kind of commodity requirements do engineers have? Is it in the range of 1 ton of this and 1 ton of that, or 10 tons of this and 15 tons of that?

 

[jabokai]

Quick question about Engineers - I have a fairly decent collection of materials that I've gathered up until now, stored in my magical utility belt obviously, but do I need now to have actual cargo space to gather the random bits and bobs used in the recipes or does that go in my magical utility belt too? I have a no-cargo combat Vulture so, basically, do I have to sell some module(s) and equip cargo space to upgrade the lazorz for example?

I've not been following the whole update too closely.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

That just means you treat any commodities as the final step of the side-quest and don't worry about finding them until all the other materials are already checked off. It's a way of adding a higher level of difficulty to those side missions that are offering more powerful rewards.

Well, a lot of this conversation is highly subjective.

Difficulty - no, there's nothing difficult about finding the components via the activity itself (scavenging on a planet surface // mining // etc) as you simply have to beat the RNG which means time invested. You either get lucky and find what you want quickly or spend hours upon hours until the RNG gods finally smile. These are annoyingly 1 ton of X which you can't buy and have to find. (aimed at Ziggy - saw his post during preview) and you have to store them in your cargo hold and not the batman utility belt (aimed at Jabokai)

That leads onto the thread title of "reward" which is highly subjective. If you have all the materials you need bar the commodity and you do spend hours, unfortunately, looking for that 1 recipe item you better hope the reward at the end is worth it. Given that the NPCs in due course will come with upgrades then you yourself better have them too (the more competent pilots and/or wealthy ones may not but the rest will) That leads you to the process of engineers itself which, bizarrely, took a layered-RNG approach which as you all know tends to favour the house rather than the player (even with the fudge by FD it's still too many RNG layers to be "rewarding")

So no, IMO, engineers isn't something you "do on the side" as the game doesn't lend itself to that.

Your opinion may differ of course


EDIT:
One thing it has done though is broker for a 2nd hand "gold seller" market.

Need 1 ton of X to complete that recipe - Seek someone who has it for sale and pay over the odds

(EG: To unlock the 1st engineer Farseer you needed 1t of <can't remember now> and I ended up with 8 spare. Gave them away to fellow pilots but I can see the potential for players to set up "shops" - you find the materials [that are stored in your batman belt] and then pay credits for the commodities)

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

These are annoyingly 1 ton of X which you can't buy and have to find. (aimed at Ziggy - saw his post during preview) and you have to store them in your cargo hold and not the batman utility belt (aimed at Jabokai)

Reason I asked is: if it's just 1 ton of substance X, you could ignore the requirement until you accidentally run into 1 ton of substance X. If it's multiple tons of stuff, then you will need to hang on to stuff and it becomes annoying.

 

[Mephane]

I think main point is - you don't. None of ED systems added are mandatory (same as roles - they arent, so why Engineer mods should be). However, if you hit it right with one of them, you are in treat.[/B]

Well, this is a matter purely of opinion. For lots of people, and not just the min-maxers, anything that has to do with how your ship is equipped and performs, is never an optional side-activity.

Now this doesn't make it technically mandatory, because the game allows you to fly in your starting Sidewinder forever, too, if you wish. But if you care about your ship and how it performs, of course the existence of this thing there that let's you boost 100m/s faster, jump 4Ly further, have 3x as powerful shields etc. draws your full attention. And I am sure FD are fully aware of this and intend it this way, otherwise they wouldn't have made engineer unlocking, levelling and material collection a process that requires dedicated effort.

 

[Vasious]

Not having gone down the engineers path yet, what kind of commodity requirements do engineers have? Is it in the range of 1 ton of this and 1 ton of that, or 10 tons of this and 15 tons of that?

1 ton an attempt but only for certain levels

The pattern seems to be (but might not be true in 100% of cases)
level 1 needs only materials/data
level 2-3 need commodities that can be mined or purchased or obtained from missions, plus an assortment of materials/data
level 4-5 needs commodities that commodities that can be obtained my missions

 

[Jhyrryl]

Reason I asked is: if it's just 1 ton of substance X, you could ignore the requirement until you accidentally run into 1 ton of substance X. If it's multiple tons of stuff, then you will need to hang on to stuff and it becomes annoying.

Does it matter when:
a) the vehicle you are attempting to upgrade can't carry cargo, and
b) you can't transfer cargo between vehicles?

 

[Mephane]

level 4-5 needs commodities that commodities that can be obtained my missions

What I saw so far, it seems at least the grade 5 blueprints use commodities sold in markets in specific regions. Example. Unless the info on this site is incorrect, of course. The mission-only commodities seem to be mostly a thing of the mid-grade upgrades (2-4).

 

[jabokai]

and you have to store them in your cargo hold and not the batman utility belt (aimed at Jabokai)

Hmm, that sucks. So I can store enough materials in my utility belt to make something like a 100 tonnes of fuel, but I need cargo space to store a (relatively) tiny item to combine with materials. I really don't understand the logic.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Reason I asked is: if it's just 1 ton of substance X, you could ignore the requirement until you accidentally run into 1 ton of substance X. If it's multiple tons of stuff, then you will need to hang on to stuff and it becomes annoying.

• Yes, it's 1t of X so collect the other materials first prior to hunting for that X.
• Pray that the RNG gods smile upon you
• Go visit the engineer and pray the RNG god smiles upon you
• Repeat the entire process as the RNG god didn't smile upon you*

*or seek a player selling the component you need



So fair's fair - I see Engineer as being the 1st of many player markets.

• The mining guilds will set up shop selling component X for Y credits.
• The scavenging guild will set up shop selling component W for Z credits.

• I see myself as being the broker in between getting fat rich .. i mean *cough* helping my fellow player out.

 

[Marra Morgan]

So my opinion seeing how it all works is this - Engineers is side activity (not main one, it is clearly not an mandatory upgrade path) which rewards having varied play style or "life" in ED universe.

Totally agree!

After about an hour of searching for specific bits and materials, I quickly decided that it wasn't much fun. Then I realised that if I just went about doing the varied stuff I would usually do, I'd build up a nice collection of various bits and materials - you can't really avoid them!

Every now and again I'll check what I've got, see what upgrades I can get and visit the appropriate engineer.

It reiterates something I've always found true for this game - it's more about the journey than the destination

 

[Archvillain]

One thing it has done though is broker for a 2nd hand "gold seller" market.
Need 1 ton of X to complete that recipe - Seek someone who has it for sale and pay over the odds

Yes - I'm fascinated what forms this might take once people start getting organized. Is there going to be an outside app to coordinate meetings? Are we going to end up with an unofficial (or official?) no-fire-zone "holy ground" marketplace where sellers congregate? Wouldn't that attract the griefers? Or something more ad-hoc with back-alley deals? Something else?

I think it will be interesting


Maybe it's time to go mining and park myself at an Engineer's base, offering my wares?

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

After about an hour of searching for specific bits and materials, I quickly decided that it wasn't much fun. Then I realised that if I just went about doing the varied stuff I would usually do, I'd build up a nice collection of various bits and materials - you can't really avoid them!

Don't forget that in order to visit the engineer once you need all those lovely materials you just happened upon (yeah! But only limited storage space - boo!) then you normally need to find a commodity .. and that's where the fun begins. To get to the higher tiers you usually have to do lower tier upgrades and that means hours upon hours of boring stuff. (YMMV)

I wanted 1 .. just 1 upgrade via the only engineer I could work with (Farseer) and she wanted some mineral from mining. Even if I did have all the other materials (sulphur - SRV nonsense // High Wake Scanner component .. who uses HWS anyway ?!) I was forced to mine for a component that after 4 hours yielded ZERO. I was not having fun.

 

[Mephane]

Totally agree!

After about an hour of searching for specific bits and materials, I quickly decided that it wasn't much fun. Then I realised that if I just went about doing the varied stuff I would usually do, I'd build up a nice collection of various bits and materials - you can't really avoid them!

Every now and again I'll check what I've got, see what upgrades I can get and visit the appropriate engineer.

It reiterates something I've always found true for this game - it's more about the journey than the destination

The more I think about it, the more the solution seems to be a material and data exchange market, where players can trade their surplus with each other; not for credits, but material-for-material. Most activities yield some types of materials, so if you, say, only bounty hunt, you will get lots of materials from the limited set that drops from pirates, and could trade some of that with the materials others got from missions, salvaging, surface base raids, SRV surface collecting etc.

WTT Vanadium for Chemical Processors anyone? Yes, I am one of those who enjoy collecting rocks in the SRV. I know some hate it so with an exchange market we could get together and trade...

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

• Yes, it's 1t of X so collect the other materials first prior to hunting for that X.
• Pray that the RNG gods smile upon you
• Go visit the engineer and pray the RNG god smiles upon you
• Repeat the entire process as the RNG god didn't smile upon you*

*or seek a player selling the component you need

The mining guilds will set up shop selling component X for Y credits.

In that case, I don't think storage space is the showstopper for treating engineers as a side activity. It's the RNG mechanic.

Once you get into the commodity requirements stage, you can go do other stuff until you accidentally run into that commodity. The RNG stuff is for the birds in my opinion. Once you have found that commodity you'd want to know with some certainty what it'll deliver. Otherwise your 1t of stuff probably won't do first time, and you still will need multiple tons of stuff.

So fair's fair - I see Engineer as being the 1st of many player markets.

• The scavenging guild will set up shop selling component W for Z credits.

• I see myself as being the broker in between getting fat rich .. i mean *cough* helping my fellow player out.

Get yer fresh yttrium here folks! Straight from the metal rich planets of Virginis 59, lovely yttrium! 5 for the price of 4! Step right up, get yer fresh yttrium!

edit: I broke the forum

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Yes - I'm fascinated what forms this might take once people start getting organized. Is there going to be an outside app to coordinate meetings? Are we going to end up with an unofficial (or official?) no-fire-zone "holy ground" marketplace where seller congregate? Wouldn't that attract the griefers? Back-alley deals? Something else?

Agreed - best thing to come out of Engineers is the potential for player markets for the "hard to find stuff"

 

[MadDogMurdock]

Well, a lot of this conversation is highly subjective.

Difficulty - no, there's nothing difficult about finding the components via the activity itself (scavenging on a planet surface // mining // etc) as you simply have to beat the RNG which means time invested. You either get lucky and find what you want quickly or spend hours upon hours until the RNG gods finally smile. These are annoyingly 1 ton of X which you can't buy and have to find. (aimed at Ziggy - saw his post during preview) and you have to store them in your cargo hold and not the batman utility belt (aimed at Jabokai)

That leads onto the thread title of "reward" which is highly subjective. If you have all the materials you need bar the commodity and you do spend hours, unfortunately, looking for that 1 recipe item you better hope the reward at the end is worth it. Given that the NPCs in due course will come with upgrades then you yourself better have them too (the more competent pilots and/or wealthy ones may not but the rest will) That leads you to the process of engineers itself which, bizarrely, took a layered-RNG approach which as you all know tends to favour the house rather than the player (even with the fudge by FD it's still too many RNG layers to be "rewarding")

So no, IMO, engineers isn't something you "do on the side" as the game doesn't lend itself to that.

Your opinion may differ of course

My opinion isn't that treating Engineers as a side activity is the 'correct' way.
Just that it's the only way I'm willing to approach it due to the many flaws that have been rightly pointed out.

I'll just do my thing collecting mats along the way and then visit the engineers to see what I can get if I put in the effort to find the commodities.
For me, any other way leads to cargo space juggling madness, eventually being locked in one ship with no cargo space left.

So my post at least isn't trying to justify the Engineer's implementation, it's just finding a way to deal with it that I can accept.

Similar to how everyone accepts that you can get military ranking by shuttling poo around because eventually you'll get your Cutter. Completely ridiculous implementation.

 

[the100thmonkey]

I do not agree with your assessment as the facts in the game don't support your thinking.

Horizons is a side game as all items required are permanent post death as you store them outside your ship (in the magic pockets on your suit )

Engineers requires, among other things, actual commodities that are either bought, scavenged from a planet or mined from asteroids. As some of these commodities are very rare and difficult to find, combined with the fact you have no storage capability, that means once you start down an upgrade path you're committed to it regardless. (You can't store commodities and transferring them to another ship requires you set up cargo space in advance prior to swapping ships)

That would not be my interpretation of a "side" activity.

I'd suggest it's a side activity as you can do it when you want, just like pretty much any other aspect of the game.