Opinion: Engineers is a side activity which rewards varied playing style

[Aewarin Jameson]

The mining guilds will set up shop selling component X for Y credits.

In that case, I don't think storage space is the showstopper for treating engineers as a side activity. It's the RNG mechanic.

OK here's the "rewarding" part of the Engineer add-on.

Let's say you're out and about in your mining ship looking for the final piece to complete a recipe to modify your C4 Cannon of Doom on your BH Death Ship.

You find it .. hurray ... dash back to dock and realise you forgot to put cargo slots in advance on your death ship - cos you know, it's a death ship, not a cargo ship.

Now what ?

You can't transfer to your death ship as you have cargo in your hold .. and your stored ship has no space .. and sadly your mining ship can't hold a C4 Cannon of Doom either (to modify that and transfer it over via sell/buy)

You're out of luck.

--

To give Pecisk some credit I suppose he is right in some aspects that Engineers should have been a side order to deal with as and when.

Sadly the implementation of it by FD pretty much killed that off.

Multiple layers of RNG (finding / rolling) combined with no storage to easily swap between ships makes this "side" dish rather tasteless.

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I'd suggest it's a side activity as you can do it when you want, just like pretty much any other aspect of the game.

Of course ... but once you start down the path you have to complete it .. you can't easily abandon mid way though for reasons pointed out above.

It may well have been designed as a side activity but the implementation makes it a primary.

 

[Iskariot]

This game is supposed to be a side activity aka hobby. But it has the same problem that EVE does, it commands you spend ALL of your time doing brainless tasks.

There are plenty of healthier hobbies that build real life experience and skills instead of wasting it on a game that only instigates annoyance and boredom.

As with any game, if you do not like it, do not play it.
It is as simple as that, but you know that of course.
You do not have to put in 4 hours a day.
Sometimes I do, but sometimes I only play a few hours per week, or I skip a week.
I play a lot of other games too, but always the Elite universe pulls me back in.

The game is indeed a hobby. If you spend too much time with it you can't hold the game responsible for that.
The game does not "command" you to do anything. But Elite leaves it to the player to build in his/her own variables.
A lot of players burn out because they play for too many hours on end while repeating the same stuff over and over again.

FD is slowly adding layer after layer on top of the base game. This takes time.
Perhaps you would have more fun if you came back after a year or two, if the current state of the project does not appeal to you.

For me personally the ED project is a dream come true. I love the space flight mechanic, I love the combat, the spaceships, their customizability, the beauty of the enormous universe and 2.1 in general is an momentous improvement of it all.
Of course I want more of everything and I sure think some stuff might be improved (like Powerplay) or added (winging up with NPC/nPC multi crew) but in general I love to be in this galaxy that Elite is offering me.

 

[Kizbot]

..
So my opinion seeing how it all works is this - Engineers is side activity (not main one, it is clearly not an mandatory upgrade path) which rewards having varied play style or "life" in ED universe.

..

I think main point is - you don't. None of ED systems added are mandatory (same as roles - they arent, so why Engineer mods should be). However, if you hit it right with one of them, you are in treat.
..

I see problems with this. The idea you are proposing is that upgrading modules is not something to focus on, it's a background thing. Rather like a mini-game that you occasionally dabble in while playing the main game. Without paying too much attention to it, you will eventually have the parts accumulated to go grab a grade 3 upgrade on your FSD that improves jump range and it will just be a 'hmm.. that's convenient' moment.

Problems are that:

1, The whole point of 2.1 was the ENGINEERS. Clue is in the title. We didn't wait 5 months for something that we should mostly ignore, we want to completely explore the content that we paid and waited for.

2, When engineers originally dropped, 99% of NPCs had modified weapons or modules so actually the player needed to immediately jump on the upgrade task to remain at a more fair playing field. They subsequently had to change this due to the outcry from the greater majority pointing out that for the casual gamer it was no longer fun. Im pretty sure that elite ranked NPCs still do have them again creating a need for the player to get them as well.

3, We currently can't just slowly accumulate the required materials and commodities for 6 or 7 grade 5 upgrades over a period of 8 or 9 weeks because of the utter lack of a means of storing required commodities as and when we find them along with the limited amount of storage for 120 different collectible materials/data.

4, The other vital upgrade with 2.1 was the mission system, which rewards commodities for completing them. Is this so I can immediately sell them for some extra credits? What's the point in that, just increase the credit reward. No, the point was to give you a commodity you need for an upgrade, encouraging the player to do certain missions because of that particular commodity all the while pointing the player in the direction of getting an engineer mod. I cant just receive the commodity reward and then forget about it for a few weeks, because I'm stuck with this ton of something that I cant leave anywhere because of the storage problem. If encourages me to do something with it right now.

The mechanisms that were employed with 2.1 pretty much go against the idea that they shouldn't be focused on as it actively steers the player towards them in multiple ways. I get what you are saying, I would have been really nice if the focus had been something else entirely and then we found out 'hey, there are these guys and you can get some cool stuff now and again' but it wasn't like that. They were the whole focus.

 

[the100thmonkey]

Of course ... but once you start down the path you have to complete it .. you can't easily abandon mid way though for reasons pointed out above.

Sure you can - you just stop collecting parts for that thing.

If/when the demon-class NPCs are reintroduced, it ceases to be come optional.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Spoiler

I see problems with this. The idea you are proposing is that upgrading modules is not something to focus on, it's a background thing. Rather like a mini-game that you occasionally dabble in while playing the main game. Without paying too much attention to it, you will eventually have the parts accumulated to go grab a grade 3 upgrade on your FSD that improves jump range and it will just be a 'hmm.. that's convenient' moment.

Problems are that:

1, The whole point of 2.1 was the ENGINEERS. Clue is in the title. We didn't wait 5 months for something that we should mostly ignore, we want to completely explore the content that we paid and waited for.

2, When engineers originally dropped, 99% of NPCs had modified weapons or modules so actually the player needed to immediately jump on the upgrade task to remain at a more fair playing field. They subsequently had to change this due to the outcry from the greater majority pointing out that for the casual gamer it was no longer fun. Im pretty sure that elite ranked NPCs still do have them again creating a need for the player to get them as well.

3, We currently can't just slowly accumulate the required materials and commodities for 6 or 7 grade 5 upgrades over a period of 8 or 9 weeks because of the utter lack of a means of storing required commodities as and when we find them along with the limited amount of storage for 120 different collectible materials/data.

4, The other vital upgrade with 2.1 was the mission system, which rewards commodities for completing them. Is this so I can immediately sell them for some extra credits? What's the point in that, just increase the credit reward. No, the point was to give you a commodity you need for an upgrade, encouraging the player to do certain missions because of that particular commodity all the while pointing the player in the direction of getting an engineer mod. I cant just receive the commodity reward and then forget about it for a few weeks, because I'm stuck with this ton of something that I cant leave anywhere because of the storage problem. If encourages me to do something with it right now.

The mechanisms that were employed with 2.1 pretty much go against the idea that they shouldn't be focused on as it actively steers the player towards them in multiple ways. I get what you are saying, I would have been really nice if the focus had been something else entirely and then we found out 'hey, there are these guys and you can get some cool stuff now and again' but it wasn't like that. They were the whole focus.

Amen brother.

A better version of what I was trying to say.

I rep you and hope that Lady RNG smiles upon you when she calls your name out.

 

[Dommarraa]

Agree with the OP, and hopefully as a few days have passed, people might begin to calm the hell down.

IMHO The only real fault with the system is the Mission Only Components. You cant be expected to carry them for ages as you come across them in normal play, nor can you find them when needed without an excessive amount of grind.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Sure you can - you just stop collecting parts for that thing

Just so we're clear there are 2 types of "things" you need.

- Materials, that go into your magical batman belt, survive death, and don't take up real cargo space
- Components that go into your cargo hold, don't survive death, and prevents you from transferring between ships (unless new ship has cargo space also)

So yes .. play how you want until you have all the materials you need for a recipe. Once you start however on the component you play until you modify.

 

[Obsidian Ant]

Reading all kind of discussions, pleas, demands, threads about Engineers it feels like people still don't try to understand it, maybe even just because they are going trough emotions, trying to force it to become what it's not. It happens all the time, but it is very visible with Engineers.

So my opinion seeing how it all works is this - Engineers is side activity (not main one, it is clearly not an mandatory upgrade path) which rewards having varied play style or "life" in ED universe.

It is system designed as anti-thesis of "consuming content". It is not really a content per se, it is mechanism which together with assets adds new gameplay, and thus content. It trades clear min/max paths with variations of outcomes. You get bonus...but you don't know what kind of bonus you get, and grinding for it is quite taunting task. Probability gates are there to avoid players get specific upgrade (as I said, not a mandatory upgrade path), but get upgrade nevertheless.

Why I like it? It doesn't force me into mandatory upgrade mill, yet it can give me boost in interesting ways. I also love collecting materials (I love looting, FD has done it right) and it gives some context and ideas how and why to do it.

Why some people might not like it? Well, min/maxers will definitely not like it, as it is clear anti-thesis of calculated paths towards upgrades, they most likely will struggle to understand concept of this. Pure PvP fans will most likely avoid Engineer mods in combative dogfights as they want equal standing. "Griefers" will loath it and love it in same time, but with buffed NPCs I think they will have more issues on their hands. People locking themselves in specific roles will try to understand why they should bother.

I think main point is - you don't. None of ED systems added are mandatory (same as roles - they arent, so why Engineer mods should be). However, if you hit it right with one of them, you are in treat.

I feel Liqua is spot on here, and addresses your thoughts perfectly Pecisk:

I do not agree with your assessment as the facts in the game don't support your thinking.

Horizons is a side game as all items required are permanent post death as you store them outside your ship (in the magic pockets on your suit )

Engineers requires, among other things, actual commodities that are either bought, scavenged from a planet or mined from asteroids. As some of these commodities are very rare and difficult to find, combined with the fact you have no storage capability, that means once you start down an upgrade path you're committed to it regardless. (You can't store commodities and transferring them to another ship requires you set up cargo space in advance prior to swapping ships)

That would not be my interpretation of a "side" activity.

As it currently stands it is literally impossible to just play the game with the Engineers as a side-focus and get high level upgrades (and no, they are not mandatory). The game-mechanics do not support that idea - as you cannot obtain the very rare commodities (and keep them) whilst playing in that manner.

For me, it's not about getting the upgrades fast, and it's not about the upgrades being mandatory. I personally have no plan in mind for my upgrades, and will build very slowly over time and take whatever I get. I very much enjoy gameplay that supports that. But The Engineers actually doesn't support that. It doesn't support this type of gameplay because of three very important facts:

• We have limits to our material and data storage.
• There is no where to store our rare commodities.
• It's extremely unlikely you are going to come across the rarest materials, data and commodities just through "regular play".

If in my travels, I come across a rare commodity that engineers like - where am I supposed to keep it until I am ready to use it?
If I spend a lot of time looting and collecting materials on the surface of planets, how am I supposed to choose which data and materials to keep and discard if I don't have a plan for which upgrade I want?

It's not that the update makes things take too long. It's not that things are too hard. The problem is that there is not enough logic, it's too random, it doesn't respect the players time investment, and the system is at odds with the rules it sets itself.

 

[Barking_Mad]

I think they probably just need to loosen the RNG and make it a little clearer when stuff can be found. Then people with less time can enjoy the upgrades if their goal is to upgrade their ship out of want rather than happen stance.


Edit: I do actually think that long term The Engineers will be seen and treated as 'something else to do in the game', but that of course creates a problem when selling the upgrade in that people coming to it want it to be accessible and useful now, not 12 months down the line when with other stuff added it will blend more into the game.

David did say that he thought 'player tools' in the game is one area that needs looking at. Maybe this will bump those tools up the list a bit.

 

[Marra Morgan]

If in my travels, I come across a rare commodity that engineers like - where am I supposed to keep it until I am ready to use it?
If I spend a lot of time looting and collecting materials on the surface of planets, how am I supposed to choose which data and materials to keep and discard if I don't have a plan for which upgrade I want?

It's not that the update makes things take too long. It's not that things are too hard. The problem is that there is not enough logic, it's too random, it doesn't respect the players time investment, and the system is at odds with the rules it sets itself.

Hmm, I haven't got as far as needing the very rare stuffs for the high-end upgrades yet, but this is a good point.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Maybe helping by giving some of those high-end materials as treasure locations following completed high end missions would be a possibility.

 

[Han Brannigan]

Agree with OP.

 

[Maxmilian Czhilli]

So after sleeping on it I'm seriously considering wiping my 18 months of play and starting fresh... Seems like the best way to enjoy this game that feels new since 2.1

My only worry is losing my Gunship (Rep for it) before fighters come out, also losing my courier that's been the ship I always go back to over the last year.

Has anyone ever regretted wiping their save?

I had similar concerns and even asked the very same question regarding regret. Only one player told me that they regretted wiping their save. They wiped for the release of 2.0 and found it a real chore to re-establish themselves. I started the game with 2.0 and can tell you that it is much easier to get going in 2.1. After a few days I already have 1.7m credits and am forcing myself to stay in the Sidewinder because I don't want to advance too quickly.

Personally I have no regrets. I am enjoying the game much more now. That was my deciding factor. I reckoned it would be more fun. I hovered over the confirm button for a while, doubt and adrenaline rising, and then took the plunge. Turned out it was the right move.

It's a personal decision. Nobody can guarantee it will be the right move for you. You will have to accept than you are going to be well behind the curve with lots of other players in much more powerful ships. But you will also find there are lots of other new players. I'm flying in open and was amazed at the number of other players flying in Sideys around the starter system: I chose the Horizons starter system of Asellus Primus this time so that I didn't end up in LHS 3447 again.

The one thing I am still unsure about is how long it will take to gain Navy ranks again. For a ship that can carry a fighter you could aim for the Keelback. I'm actually looking forward to making an engineer pimped Keelback and seeing what it can do.

If you do decided to restart feel free to send me a friend request in game and we can wing up for some newbie adventures.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Maybe helping by giving some of those high-end materials as treasure locations following completed high end missions would be a possibility.

That's actually interesting idea. It would tie into giving data and information as reward. It would require new gameplay mechanic, but giving other stuff instead of money is in place - so it sounds really plausible.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Wouldn't the easiest and simplest way be to be able to store the stuff at the engineers base for future use?

 

[who?]

No, it is not a side option because the Engineer Mods are overpowered. They are straight-up upgrades. Not getting them is deliberately disadvantaging yourself. It's like buying an MMO expansion with levels 60-80 and not levelling. If the engineer mods had been tweaks to make your ship slightly better at one job but slightly worse at another, then it'd be optional. But they're not.

That's a very good point, though I'd argue there is (or was?) the flaw. Not all NPCs should have high-grade upgrades, or indeed, any. IMO there should be more difficult/dangerous/rewarding systems in the game, full of upgraded NPCs that you can choose to avoid, unless/until you too have "upgraded". That way you choose your own difficulty level and upgrading isn't forced on you just to stay alive in the galaxy.

 

[Mephane]

Wouldn't the easiest and simplest way be to be able to store the stuff at the engineers base for future use?

If the crafting could then draw directly from that storage, so that the ship you want to upgrade doesn't have to have a cargo rack, then it would be a viable band-aid.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

If the crafting could then draw directly from that storage, so that the ship you want to upgrade doesn't have to have a cargo rack, then it would be a viable band-aid.

X-acly

Catch would have to be: deposit only. Once stored, you can't retrieve. It's pledged to that engineer (otherwise the engineer would tell you (s)he's not a storage facility)

 

[Jhyrryl]

Wouldn't the easiest and simplest way be to be able to store the stuff at the engineers base for future use?

From a player's perspective, almost. The easiest would have been to make everything materials, instead of commodities. But if things have to be commodities...for unknowable reasons, then storage is a necessity. Storing at the engineer bases would make those locations be hotspots for piracy that I do not believe they are intended to be. Easier would be a hyperspace bank that can access those goods from any station services screen.

 

[Mephane]

X-acly

Catch would have to be: deposit only. Once stored, you can't retrieve. It's pledged to that engineer (otherwise the engineer would tell you (s)he's not a storage facility)

Yeah. But still, just a band-aid. Look at me in my FDL. I am not looking forward to flying 100Ly to store that cargo, which I found at a wreckage site or got from a mission, at the correct engineer, then go back and continue whatever it was I was doing. Heck, yesterday I have decided to take the Cobra to get Elvira Martuk to rank 3 (for further engineer unlocks) and then forget about her, too much hassle doing like 30 jumps in the FDL just to make a few low grade modifications that I could get elsewhere, too.