FDev, please show a bit more respect for your players time.

[Radamanthe]

Am I the only one who actually likes the RNG with the engineers?

No. Luck is what makes life exiting, basically.

 

[Muetdhiver]

No. Luck is what makes life exiting, basically.

Yeah. I was sure excited when I got a "Lucky" -3% optimal multiplayer secondary on my +7% clean drives lvl3,
making them completly pointless and wasting my time.

 

[Radamanthe]

Yeah. I was sure excited when I got a "Lucky" -3% optimal multiplayer secondary on my +7% clean drives lvl3,
making them completly pointless and wasting my time.

Excitement has nothing to do with the end result.

 

[sgurr]

I agree with the OP. Due to the layers and layers of RNG, the time-sink feels quite frustrating at times. And the progress/time ratio seems out of whack.

That said, the gameplay loop is now much better than before. I'm exploring, mission-ing, and diversifying, not just farming RES sites anymore.

I also agree with the OP, last night and this lunchtime I have used my gaming time for this week and whilst I enjoyed it I found it more than a little frustrating and I don't even have enough materials for an upgrade attempt yet.
EDIT: The fact that the time I've invested trying to track down the right materials could come to nothing is a big problem for me.

However I also agree that the gameplay loop is much better and I'm travelling and looking at more activitvies than before which is a very good thing, just the time needed is disrespectful as per the OP.

No, it's not all that matters I'm afraid, and the rudeness is an issue. Nothing damages a good argument more than making it badly. People will disagree with you purely because they want you to be wrong, and will be disinclined to agree with you because they don't want to be seen to condone your attitude.

If you feel strongly about something it is worth taking your time to get your point across calmly and rationally - that way you are more likely to convince people, FDev included. Please, this is something I feel strongly enough about that I have written close on 3000 words now in this thread, and I can honestly say that the best thing you could do to help convince people is to either play nicely, or step away from the keyboard.

Not only a very well put OP, but well argued. I'll rep again when I can.

 

[James Razor]

The problem with the RNG is that there is too much of it.
RES-Site spawn: Subject to RNG
Mining Roid Content: Subject to RNG
Engineer-Upgrades: Subject to RNG
USS-Spawns: Subject to RNG
Trading Commodities Spawns and Rare Quantitiy Spawns: Subject to RNG

Tell what in this game is not subject to RNG? Even outfitting options are random most of the time (thats why i am so happy about my Trading Elite Rank and why i only shop at Founders World). There is nothing in that game that i know of that isnt somehow tied to randomness.
Maybee exploration, but only because now after the galaxy got created. While it was created there was also a RNG at work.

 

[sgurr]

Excitement has nothing to do with the end result.

Perhaps not but frustration and feeling like you've wasted time definitely do have something to do with the end result.

 

[Radamanthe]

Perhaps not but frustration and feeling like you've wasted time definitely do have something to do with the end result.

Sure, though I talked about excitement. That feeling precedes frustation or euphoria which I didn't care while answering to the question. I cared only about the process to achieve it. Excitement usually lasts longer overall.

 

[Han Brannigan]

Am I the only one who actually likes the RNG with the engineers?

No. You are not.

 

[Kizbot]

The crafting screen is so out of place it is cringeworthy.

Imagine you complete a mission that takes about 10 hours or more and requires you to kill 50 ships. When you go to get your reward, the guy turns to you and says "ok, 50 ships dead? Great! Your prize is going to be some where between 200k credits and 15 million credits, I'm just going to pull this lever on this slot machine to find out what you get" CHACHUNG! BING, BING...BING "Sorry buddy, looks like your only getting 350k credits this time. Not happy? How about 50 more ships and you give it another go?

That's what this feels like to me and it has no place in ED. Literally the strangest design choice I have seen in a real long time of gaming.

That first time I asked the engineer to mod a pulse laser for me, those little pins bounced from left to right an the little wheel did it's spin, I laughed. Out loud. [haha] I was so just so confused at the choice to include that system which is so completely different from anything else.

It has a really weird feeling of gambling. Which is completely unexpected and after having spent 15 house gathering materials just feels horrible. Not to mention the bug right now where it lands on the blue notch on the spinning wheel and yet you still win "no effect"

 

[Sashenka]

The crafting screen is so out of place it is cringeworthy.

Imagine you complete a mission that takes about 10 hours or more and requires you to kill 50 ships. When you go to get your reward, the guy turns to and says "ok, 50 ships dead? Great! Your prize is going to be some where between 200k credits and 15 million credits, I'm just going to pull this lever on this slot machine to find out you get" CHACHUNG! BING, BING...BING "Sorry buddy, looks like your only getting 350k credits this time. Not happy? How about 50 more ships and you give it another go?

That's what this feels like to me and it has no place in ED. Literally the strangest design choice I have seen in a real long time of gaming.

That first time I asked the engineer to mod a pulse laser for me, those little pins bounced from left to right an the little wheel did it's spin, I laughed. Out loud. [haha] I was so just so confused at the choice to include that system which is so completely different from anything else.

The Try Again button is what make me cringe the most.

 

[Kizbot]

On train double post

 

[cmdr_Havalok]

I think the Engineers are a bit misunderstood. Most people seem to be think of Mr Scott when they should be thinking like this

The ENGS are reclusive, oddballs performing experimental adjustments to your ships, not Pep Boys selling you hot rod parts and lift kits.

 

[sgurr]

Sure, though I talked about excitement. That feeling precedes frustation or euphoria which I didn't care while answering to the question. I cared only about the process to achieve it. Excitement usually lasts longer overall.

Within the context of Elite I don't have the same experience as you re: the RNG. The process is only as exciting as the activities it's made of. If repeatedly dropped into USS's trying to materials only results in the same spawn for the Nth time it is not exciting.
The excitement of the 'roll' as you try for your mod is shortlived and quickly replaced by euphoria/frustration.

No. Luck is what makes life exiting, basically.

And off topic but I disagree with this. Luck itself does nothing to make life exciting or interesting, it's how you choose to interact with life. Mostly it's about creating, and being open to, the opportunity for interesting things to happen and occassionaly true luck will play a part in that.
Excitement in life does not, in any way, rely on luck.

 

[Kizbot]

I think the Engineers are a bit misunderstood. Most people seem to be think of Mr Scott when they should be thinking like this

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_maqo9bDVht1qzytg1.jpg

The ENGS are reclusive, oddballs performing experimental adjustments to your ships, not Pep Boys selling you hot rod parts and lift kits.

So where is the time machine that takes me to ED 4.0?
[haha]

Joking aside maybe part of the issue is that many people feel there are some core elements that still have place holders and they delivered scientific mavericks which I'm quite sure there wasn't high demand for.

 

[Radamanthe]

Imagine you complete a mission that takes about 10 hours or more and requires you to kill 50 ships. When you go to get your reward, the guy turns to you and says "ok, 50 ships dead? Great! Your prize is going to be some where between 200k credits and 15 million credits, I'm just going to pull this lever on this slot machine to find out what you get" CHACHUNG! BING, BING...BING "Sorry buddy, looks like your only getting 350k credits this time. Not happy? How about 50 more ships and you give it another go?

That's roughly what happens in Las Vegas everyday with thousands of people since decades. Wonder why? Think...

 

[Kizbot]

That's roughly what happens in Las Vegas everyday with thousands of people since decades. Wonder why? Think...

Umm... so ED 3.0 could be called Las Vegas and that would be a good thing?

 

[Tanith Low]

Am I the only one who actually likes the RNG with the engineers?

No you are not. There are aspects of the RNG which I personally feel work. The finding the materials part I actually think works quite well. Sure it can get a little frustrating if you are after a particular thing but the is focused, certain activities have a better chance of giving you certain materials and this works pretty well. As I said in the OP I think this results in what I called "the wonder of discovery", that "Oh yeah!" moment when you find the thing you are a looking for.

I am also not opposed to a small amount of RNG for the modules. This is both realistic and leads to "unique" modules. For example, I take my bike to be tuned. The engine tuning will result in a bhp lift, but that will be slightly variable, it might be between 10bhp or 12bhp. This is what happens when you push things beyond their tolerances. But as it stands the stats are far too variable, with mods giving you between a 28% and 68% boost to DPS for example, or a 15% to 45% optimal mass for the FSD. That is a huge swing and far too unpredictable. And it means that the player feels like they have "lost" if they only get a 15% boost. Someone earlier in the thread suggested a good solution for this,

You should be rewarding people a fair amount for the effort of unlocking and engineer in the first place, then add a more gradual increase per grade.

So, the FSD should have been a bit more like this;
Grade 1; 15-25% (no side affect)
Grade 2; 25-35% (some side effect, mainly negative)
Grade 3; 35-43% (mixed side affects)
Grade 4; 43-47% (mainly positive)
Grade 5; 47-50% (positive)

This I think would be a much more appropriate way of dishing out the upgrades. If I go for a 47% boost but only get 43% that's still pretty good. If I go for a 45% and instead get 15% I feel ripped off. Some people will say that the solution is to not want the best, but that seems like a fallacy. Nobody wants second best. Most of us settle for second best because we can't afford the best, but no one is happy to pay top dollar to receive an inferior product. This is what I meant by the time commitment earlier. The cost to the player in terms of materials, and the time taken to gather those materials is the same regardless of whether or not you get 15% or 45%.

On top of that the "special effects" are another level of RNG and these I really think should just go. Maybe just lock them from the lower tiers of modifications so the engineers will only perform these works if your reputation is high enough. But having a random chance of a random special effect just seems mad. It doesn't work from the perspective of the lore, nor from the gameplay perspective. From a lore point of view, there is no good reason why, if I have gone to have my multi cannon lightened, it should come out of the workshop firing ammunition that damages shields! There was no work being done on the ammunition. From a game play point of view, I was probably relying on the multi cannon to deal damage to hull. Now I need to either discard the mod, or re spec the whole ship to work in a different way. I would not object to a similar level of RNG on the effectivness of the mod, similar to the quote above. But I feel we should be able to choose the special effect itself, and then have it applied.

I understand that there are a lot of people who aren't much fussed about the engineers, and this is fair enough. But there are slot of people who take a great satisfaction in the load out of their ships. Of having the right tool for the right job and planning the modules that they want in it. This is one of the reasons why corriolis.io is so popular. The engineers mods were always going to be an important goal for this section of the player base - not a side activity, and the mods have been implemented in such a way as to be very frustrating for them. If you then take into account the fact that the system rewards those who have the time to gather enough materials to roll again and again, and that anyone without this time must relay on chance to get something good you can see where a lot of the disappointment is coming from.

TLDR - Some RNG is good. But as it stands engineers has far too much; it removes player agency and is very frustrating for the parts of the player base which it was aimed at.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Sure, though I talked about excitement. That feeling precedes frustation or euphoria which I didn't care while answering to the question. I cared only about the process to achieve it. Excitement usually lasts longer overall.

However if you suffer repeated frustration then instead of feeling excitement, you start to approach the situation with trepidation - and that's not going to incline you to try again.

 

[Tyzah]

I HATE THIS LIE!


we are being lied too!


SPECIALISED LEGACY FIRMWARE... a very common material LOLMAO!




WHAT A HUGE WASTE OF TIME!

IT IS NOT FUNNY!

I#m looking for it in all places since release of 2.1

I got 1 pcs. -.-


THIS IS STUPID.

BROKEN!

A SLAP IN THE FACE!


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[Kizbot]

However if you suffer repeated frustration then instead of feeling excitement, you start to approach the situation with trepidation.

Exactly this, I entered the engineers workshop with no idea what to expect and then after going through about 16 pulse lasers while trying to increase rep (another bizarre design choice) I learned that it didn't feel very good. I didn't leave thinking great look what I can make instead I left thinking "gee that will be stressful and unlikely I get anything I want"

 

[Cheops1975]

Lol at above.. I'm actually stuck on finding this as well. Scanned damn near every data point at every kind of settlement along with mission board checking and USS dropping and found none. Since this patch dropped. Common my ass