Poll about exit-to-menu delay time

[Loetmichel]

Um, think about that for a second.
They create a private pirate group. Only pirates allowed. ...Yarrrr! Um, wait a second, who are we going to pirate? just NPC's?

Not my problem. Or any players problem that plays a trader in open. (Not that much of that sort left anyway these days.)
And yes, you can pirate NPCs just the same as players. Only difference is that they wouldnt give you the the salt you get when you kill a player.

No one's asking you to "play their way" they're saying to play within the scope of the rules that FD laid out for open mode, and combat logging IS NOT acceptable there.

Just that logging to menue is NOT considered against the rules by FD at all. If you cant live with that: make a PG where it IS against the rules. Simple, isnt it?

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I actually much prefer player pirates over NPC ones. Some players actually just want a bit of cargo. All NPC's just want to blow you up.

Not true. And never was. you could give the NPC cargo and in a good part of the cases they will accept that. Nowadays some more believeable amounts.
But if you used "jettison all" you could have gotten out of about 30% of NPC interdictions unharmed even before 2.1
(the 30% based on some tests by myself over the years, not really scientific experiments tho)

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There nothing about even a 0 log-out time that would prevent piracy as a game career.

All it could do is prevent players form pirating other players. You can pirate NPCs until you're blue in the face.

The unspoken assumption that pirating only NPCs is unacceptable makes it pretty clear that the objection is based on one thing only - the desire to demonstrate how much better you are than other players (or how much better you think you are). It's not enough to be able to play the game your own way - you want to dictate how others play the game in order to cater to your own amusement. That is not a reasonable demand or expectation.

Repped for telling the utter truth.

 

[Andovar]

Just that logging to menue is NOT considered against the rules by FD at all. If you cant live with that: make a PG where it IS against the rules. Simple, isnt it?

Where exactly did I say that menu logging is against the rules or that i can't live with it??
The rules right now are simple. If you want to leave during combat, you have to wait 15 seconds, all the while hoping you don't get stomped in that 15 seconds.

Lets face it, FD has created a game where they want conflict. Unfortunately some of the user base doesn't want conflict (as can be seen numerous posts with people going crazy over the new AI).
Seems the only conflict they're guaranteed to keep having is here on the forums.

 

[Bostlabs]

Hmm... Just for a laugh, I'll take a crack at this.

Delivery guy at the door - He can wait a minute
Phone ringing - Voice Mail
Dog starting to throw up - You ain't gonna make it to the door anyway. Paper Towel clean up after you log out.
Kid fell over - That'll learn ya! Hurts don't it? Don't do it again. (see note)
Oven timer - The Wife
The Wife - Uh huh, yes dear.

Please note: I am not a Father. Being an Uncle is much cooler. You turn up after they get beyond the fall down phase for the most part.

 

[GluttonyFang]

I think this whole thread is very interesting because it shows exactly why I don't want to play with you guys.

Someone says he'll combat log if you attack him. You call him a filthy cheater. Why is exiting the game a cheat? Because FDEV says it's an exploit.
Someone says he'll quit to the menu if you attack him. You call him a filthy coward. FDEV said logging to the menu is OK, you don't care about what FDEV says.
Someone says he doesn't want to fight with you. You tell him to go to Solo or PG.
Someone says just create a PG against combat logging. You say this doesn't work because all the people that don't want to play with you will not be there.

I think your logic is one-sided.

It's because piracy isn't about having consensual targets, that's begging, not piracy.

People that log on pirates in Open are disrespectful toward other legitimate profession.

Yes, people get to choose how they play, but logging on people in a mode where all legitimate professions come together simply for selectively disliking certain profession (In Open mode) is outright childish, and it breaks professions.

Think about it, wanted players can just go "Nah, I don't approve of bounty hunters, therefore I'm going to log on them." It breaks the multiplayer aspect of the profession.

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There nothing about even a 0 log-out time that would prevent piracy as a game career.

All it could do is prevent players form pirating other players. You can pirate NPCs until you're blue in the face.

So a profession that has broken multiplayer function in a MMO is considered functional? What?

The unspoken assumption that pirating only NPCs is unacceptable makes it pretty clear that the objection is based on one thing only - the desire to demonstrate how much better you are than other players (or how much better you think you are).

Wild speculation with no basis whatsoever.

It's not enough to be able to play the game your own way - you want to dictate how others play the game in order to cater to your own amusement. That is not a reasonable demand or expectation.

It's not dictating, people can choose to avoid Open mode if they dislike certain legitimate profession or game play, to disregard that and still utilize open mode and proceed to log on the basis of a personal preference and exclusivity is childish.

 

[Robert Maynard]

It's because piracy isn't about having consensual targets, that's begging, not piracy.

People that log on pirates in Open are disrespectful toward other legitimate profession.

Yes, people get to choose how they play, but logging on people in a mode where all legitimate professions come together simply for selectively disliking certain profession (In Open mode) is outright childish, and it breaks professions.

Think about it, wanted players can just go "Nah, I don't approve of bounty hunters, therefore I'm going to log on them." It breaks the multiplayer aspect of the profession.

Are the players who choose to leave when they encounter a pirate any more or less disrespectful than the pirate seeking free stuff from them?

NPCs will still go after players with bounties, I expect.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Not my problem.

Lmao, and people wonder why multiplayer is broken, not only on a mechanical level but psychological level, as well.

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Are the players who choose to leave when they encounter a pirate any more or less disrespectful than the pirate seeking free stuff from them?

Players that try to flee from pirate encounter with in-game mechanics are completely legitimate, it's playing by the rules of the profession's interaction. It's respecting the interaction.

Edit:

Logging is not, because it gives no viable counter play. High-wake can be countered with FSD/thruster/PP disabling and other weapon effects that are newly introduced, logging can't be countered and completely breaks the profession with no consequence whatsoever.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Players that try to flee from pirate encounter with in-game mechanics are completely legitimate, it's playing by the rules of the profession's interaction. It's respecting the interaction.

Edit:

Logging is not, because it gives no viable counter play. High-wake can be countered with FSD/thruster/PP disabling and other weapon effects that are newly introduced, logging can't be countered and completely breaks the profession with no consequence whatsoever.

Leaving the game by the 15-second timer at any time is legitimate - per Sandro's recent post:

Hello Commanders!

To clarify: the official stance on exiting the game via the menu, at any point, is that it is legitimate. I suspect at some point we may increase the "in danger" countdown, but for now you just have to wait fifteen seconds.

However, we can't speak for how other Commanders view such actions.

For the record, when we talk about "combat logging" at Frontier, we mean the act of ungracefully exiting the game (either by ALT-F4 type procedures or by cutting the network traffic).

If a player chooses to only target other players then yes, the profession is broken for that player due to their personal preference of target - it does not mean that the profession is broken in general however - there are plenty of NPCs out there.

 

[GluttonyFang]

Leaving the game by the 15-second timer at any time is legitimate - per Sandro's recent post:

Yes, it's legitimate, but never was it considered nor said to be legitimate to be used to avoid piracy and bounty hunting profession interaction.

If a player chooses to only target other players then yes, the profession is broken for that player due to their personal preference of target - it does not mean that the profession is broken however - there are plenty of NPCs out there.

If a profession's functionality derives solely form its validity in PvE game play when the game claims to be multiplayer and a MMO for crying out loud, it's a broken profession. Broken by players' abuse of emergency exits.

Edit:

Or it warrants an explicit explanation that states: The multiplayer aspect of the piracy and bounty hunter profession are completely dependent upon the explicit consent of the victims of these professions.

Until that statement or something similar to it is given by FD, it's a broken profession. And when that statement is given, it's time for me to officially quit the game (not as a threat, just a statement).

Edit:

Might come back for some mining now or then, though

 

[Robert Maynard]

Yes, it's legitimate, but never was it considered nor said to be legitimate to be used to avoid piracy and bounty hunting profession interaction.

If a profession's functionality derives solely form its validity in PvE game play when the game claims to be multiplayer and a MMO for crying out loud, it's a broken profession. Broken by players' abuse of emergency exits.

Sandro's post is quite clear - "at any point". Players who rely on other players having no part in the decision to interact will be vulnerable to their targets exercising their prerogative to leave the game, i.e. not to play with their attacker.

It can be argued that piracy has been comprehensively broken by gankers - hence targeted players choosing to leave rather than be destroyed.

.... and it's not just a multi-player MMO - it is also a single player and small group play game. The lack of a typical MMO feature - an Open-PvE mode - is probably something to do with the perpetual friction between players of different play-styles in this game.

 

[Varrag]

Gluttony, I admire your persistence but you've chosen a fight you cannot win I'm afraid. If we have had reset-on-hit logout counter from the very beginning, everyone would take it as something perfectly normal (which it really is).

 

[babelfisch]

Yes, it's legitimate, but never was it considered nor said to be legitimate to be used to avoid piracy and bounty hunting profession interaction.

So it's not an exlpoit to pull the plug either, because they never said or considered that it's only an exploit when used to avoid piracy. Thanks for clearing that up.

If a profession's functionality derives solely form its validity in PvE game play when the game claims to be multiplayer and a MMO for crying out loud, it's a broken profession. Broken by players' abuse of emergency exits.

If your only definition of piracy is pirating other players and this doesn't work for you - yes than it's broken for you. But that's your choice. BTW, logging to the menu is not an abuse of game mechanics. Why don't you create a private group against menu and combat logging?

 

[GluttonyFang]

Sandro's post is quite clear - "at any point". Players who rely on other players having no part in the decision to interact will be vulnerable to their targets exercising their prerogative to leave the game, i.e. not to play with their attacker.

That is an additive interpretation. Nowhere in Sandro's post makes it explicitly clear that it can be used to avoid interaction, but merely that it's an allowed action.

It can be argued that piracy has been comprehensively broken by gankers - hence targeted players choosing to leave rather than be destroyed.

Gankers create a bad atmosphere for piracy, but atmosphere isn't mechanical. Piracy is mechanically broken by the 15 second exit.

 

[babelfisch]

Gluttony, I admire your persistence but you've chosen a fight you cannot win I'm afraid. If we have had reset-on-hit logout counter from the very beginning, everyone would take it as something perfectly normal (which it really is).

Counter-Strike allows me to leave the game at any time, just like 99% of all other multiplayer games. There isn't even a timer.

 

[GluttonyFang]

So it's not an exlpoit to pull the plug either, because they never said or considered that it's only an exploit when used to avoid piracy. Thanks for clearing that up.

Pulling the plug is considered an exploit all-around, using a legitimate action to break a legitimate mechanic is something completely different.

If your only definition of piracy is pirating other players and this doesn't work for you - yes than it's broken for you. But that's your choice. BTW, logging to the menu is not an abuse of game mechanics. Why don't you create a private group against menu and combat logging?

Strawman, piracy as a profession functions in a multiplayer game only when it functions both PvP and PvE.

 

[Robert Maynard]

That is an additive interpretation. Nowhere in Sandro's post makes it explicitly clear that it can be used to avoid interaction, but merely that it's an allowed action.

The inclusion of the phrase "at any point" places no limits on when a player can leave.

Gankers create a bad atmosphere for piracy, but atmosphere isn't mechanical. Piracy is mechanically broken by the 15 second exit.

Any proposed mechanic that facilitates Piracy will very probably exacerbate ganking, in my opinion. Until ganking is "solved", piracy cannot be - again, in my opinion....

 

[GluttonyFang]

Counter-Strike allows me to leave the game at any time, just like 99% of all other multiplayer games. There isn't even a timer.

Funny enough most of those games have penalty of some sort for doing something like that.

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The inclusion of the phrase "at any point" places no limits on when a player can leave.

It's an legitimate action that has the potential of breaking a legitimate profession or mechanic within the game, and it's being abused.

Any proposed mechanic that facilitates Piracy will very probably exacerbate ganking, in my opinion. Until ganking is "solved", piracy cannot be - again, in my opinion....

"Ganking" is not piracy, and it can effectively be countered by having escort or being alert to one's sensor. 15 second log abuse has no counter.

 

[Varrag]

Counter-Strike allows me to leave the game at any time, just like 99% of all other multiplayer games. There isn't even a timer.

I wouldn't know about CS, but some of the best multiplayer games I've been playing do not allow logout while the player has been directly engaged by either the players or NPCs. Or more precisely, you can logout but your ship (EVE)/tank (WoT)/character (Mortal online) will stay in the game world for as long as it receives damage, or until the match is over (WoT).

 

[Jypson]

Funny enough most of those games have penalty of some sort for doing something like that.

Is that what you're looking for? If so, what would you suggest?

 

[GluttonyFang]

Is that what you're looking for? If so, what would you suggest?

That is a part of what I'm looking for.

Emergency happens, and if it's a real emergency, players need to leave the screen asap, let the button be usable since the beginning of the count down and let the game shut down automatically after 45 seconds of counting down. This will deter players form using it as "an easy way out" and start utilizing in-game mechanics.

This is exit by menu, it shouldn't be punished, but should leave time for potential legitimate profession to proceed as normal.

Actual combat logging on the other hand, remove half of all cargo in the ship and automatically pay all half of all existing bounty, restrict access to private and solo mode for an hour (and exponentially increase if it happens regularly in a confined period of time). Reduce all in-come by 10% (like the loan system) and also exponentially increase if it happens regularly in a confined period of time.

Crime and punishment is finally giving grounds for proper punishment toward the abuse of FD's good will of accommodating player emergencies for avoiding inconvenient encounters.

 

[Andovar]

If we have had reset-on-hit logout counter from the very beginning, everyone would take it as something perfectly normal (which it really is).

Good point. Though I'd imagine it would still be a sticking point for a lot of players, and we'd probably have even more actual combat logging if they had this implemented.

Counter-Strike allows me to leave the game at any time, just like 99% of all other multiplayer games. There isn't even a timer.

and if you do that in CS:GO, you get banned from competitive play for a certain amount of time. Become a repeat offender, and the ban gets significantly longer.