Entitled Gamers and Other Logical Fallacies

[kushan]

I strive to have average skill in combat.

Haha! A man after my own heart.

 

[JuicerPrime]

Good video. We have many, many logical fallacies presented every day about these parts. Often they come packaged with venom, which is aimed at the eyes.

Maybe we could apply this video with the Ludovico Technique to the face of anyone who wants to post hereabouts as mandatory policy. Robert could oversee the procedure! It would be a glorious age, where respect and mutual fellowship rule, and in no way would be blighted by the unspeakable eyeball trauma of too much Ludovico Technique because we long ago pushed the mods over a cliff edge of insanity and then gave them custody of our faces.

How could this possibly go wrong? I vote we begin immediately. Robert, prepare the clamps.

 

[Loetmichel]

I chuckled.

I like cynicism.

Repped.

Sad thing is: that wasnt cynism. It is reality in this (and even more so in other) forums.

Rational, moderate posts will simply be ignored. the only ones that get attention are the ones that ARE hyberole and toxic.

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Not enough Ps and Qs in that video. Oh and every time I see Baltar there, I want to smash his face in. Damn Cylon lovers - no wonder he's such a big fan of 2.1, he loves aimbotting AI.

HEY! Get off my last worshipper, would you?

 

[Cosmos]

Over the years here I've seen a lot of this sort of stuff from the vid on this board. Stawman and ad homs is rife here but so is the hysterical nature of many a post on certain topics. I particuarly dislike the way one particular playstyle has been demonised: Anything thats PvP related gets so much hate and extreme vitriol its completely poisoned the forums and its certainly made many feel unwelcome on the board. Logging on each day to see yet another hate filled post, or some veiled slight, about how PvPers are killing the game or some other bashing post of anyone who participates has created a particualy toxic environment.

From my own experience I would have probably not given solo or pg a second thought if it hadn't been for this. Yet, after the years of abuse I have nothing but contempt for those who do and have acted this way. By allowing this to continue on for so long it feels very much like its a semi-official view.

There is simply just too much whining about certain things. Don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with posting about something one doesn't like or expressing an opinion but its often so hysterical and hyperbolic and aimed at someone by throwing mud at them. Its why for the most part I think reddit is a better environment on the whole. Got to say though, I've never witnessed what goes on here anywhere else.

I see it also manifest in the abuse of the steam review system and we've seen a fair bit of that. It doesn't seem to take much either.. I can only conclude there are some pretty obnoxious and childish folks out there.

So the recent improvement of AI/NPCs caused quite the drama too. One thing I've never had much of an issue with is problems, bugs or hiccups after a release or update. Been around long enough, and seen many a release to expect it. Yet looking over some folks comments you'd think the world was about to end. Instead of waiting for FD to fix bugs or what not, the forums goes into meltdown which always gets my back up and makes me angry, and then I start to flip and lose my temper..

 

[Loetmichel]

I particuarly dislike the way one particular playstyle has been demonised: Anything thats PvP related gets so much hate and extreme vitriol its completely poisoned the forums and its certainly made many feel unwelcome on the board. Logging on each day to see yet another hate filled post, or some veiled slight, about how PvPers are killing the game or some other bashing post of anyone who participates has created a particualy toxic environment.

Hmm. Are you sure you dont have a filter running? Because i see plenty of posts complaining about Ganking and Griefing. I cant really recall when the last one postet "so that [redacted] pirate x shot my ship after he demanded cargo and i tried to flee" or "that player that just agreed to a 1v1 killed me! I want my rebuy back!!!!"

Meaning: I think you confuse "PvP" and simple Bullies to not use a harder word. More than any of these two "categorys" i have seen posts tho that complain about combat loggers or players that escape to solo or group. "bring them back to open by any means!!!"" if you know what i mean. It may be that I run a filter, too though.

And to be honest: the group in which said "ad hominem" and "git gud" derogatory posts run rampant isnt the one that simply dont want this game to be a second job but would rather have a nice relaxing evening playing a Space economy simulator.
Its the Group that lives to fight other players, either if they are willing to fight back or not.

 

[frostypaw]

I feel like the video is a bit unfair to be generally aimed at the forums, it's certainly been true of some elements but there's other bits that unfair because it's all cycling around being anti-paying for buffs, which isn't what happens here.

It's been very very strange to see many people offer to bend over backwards to help others and just be ignored and attacked - I'm actually a little surprised how low the level of "git gud" is, but some of those who've wanted to be super-angry and are super-determined to nerf the game into 'easy' mode really haven't wanted to listen and have cherry picked their responses

Some have and have posted since saying they have found help here trying what's been suggested and I commend them every one, especially if they were super-angry to start with.

But yeah, that video'ss too broad a stroke to apply here as it's context is a bit off

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would rather have a nice relaxing evening playing a Space economy simulator.

I'm here for a cut throat galaxy, not a relaxing economy simulator that's not what it said this game was at all ever ever - is it?

 

[Silaz]

Just because the guy in the OP video knows his arguments doesn't make him immune to their mistakes, most people even if they are aware of the 'wrong' arguments will still use them, whether they are aware of it or not.
Quite often, on the internet I will allow someone to win an argument, even though I recognised a flaw in their observation/judgement, simply because I don't want to sound like a c**t.

 

[Loetmichel]

I'm here for a cut throat galaxy, not a relaxing economy simulator that's not what it said this game was at all ever ever - is it?

And thats fine. Its just that there are plenty of different people playing this game with different whishes for it to go one way or the other. Thats all i wanted to say.

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Just because the guy in the OP video knows his arguments doesn't make him immune to their mistakes, most people even if they are aware of the 'wrong' arguments will still use them, whether they are aware of it or not.
Quite often, on the internet I will allow someone to win an argument, even though I recognised a flaw in their observation/judgement, simply because I don't want to sound like a c**t.

Judging by the general tone here and especially over at reddit you are the big exeption of the rule though. Repped for that.

 

[Siranui]

Most common strawman argument I've seen this past week is accusation of people claiming they were told to "git gud". When in fact they had been given some specific tips on tactics on how to survive an encounter.

Completely agree. People haven't always been the most diplomatic, but the conversation does tend to go:

"This sucks, it's impossible."
"Try this"
"I don't want to change. I shouldn't have to."

 

[frostypaw]

And thats fine. Its just that there are plenty of different people playing this game with different whishes for it to go one way or the other. Thats all i wanted to say.

Yeah you're almost too right.

To a degree I think Frontier have been a little too vague on their intentions - the fella in another thread saying this should have been called "2.1 Consequences" isn't wrong - then maybe there could have been a warning and discussion and clarity on the game's direction in advance while right now it's often just hyperbole and guesswork

 

[Duane Dibbley]

I will allow someone to win an argument, even though I recognised a flaw in their observation/judgement, simply because I don't want to sound like a c**t.

Lol that's very gracious of you!..now that definitely doesn't make you sound at all like a clot! (that was the c word you were referring to, right?)

 

[JuicerPrime]

Completely agree. People haven't always been the most diplomatic, but the conversation does tend to go:

"This sucks, it's impossible."
"Try this"
"I don't want to change. I shouldn't have to."

It also tends to go:-

"This is fun, I'm challenged and dying a lot!"
"This isn't fun."
"Get better you entitled weakling! Don't take my thrills from me!"

Because, portentiously enough, the forums have two camps that hate each other! It's great, you don't even have to log in to see combat anymore! Truly life imitates fiction 8D

 

[Siranui]

It also tends to go:-

"This is fun, I'm challenged and dying a lot!"
"This isn't fun."
"Get better you entitled weakling! Don't take my thrills from me!"

The problem I have with that is that what's the point of the second comment? If someone is celebrating the game, why jump in negatively?

 

[Privata]

Its sad...
but the evolution of games is this :
Old FPS : ''Simulation'' Of being in a combat zone or in an action movie
Old Racing game : Simuation of being a race driver
Old Spacesim : Simulation of being in space
Old platformer : "Simulation'' of being an adventurer

New FPS : Simulating you being good at playing an FPS
New racing : Simulating you being good at racing games
New spacesim : Simulating you being as good as han solo without even doing anything
New platformer : Simulates pushing up to go up a hill

The word simulates is used not in the sens that they provide realsim but let you do something you are not
And of course there are some modern games that are better than anything from the past like UT4 , ArmA , ES , ED , and many more but skill seems to be an option and finishing a game seems to be seen as something that all must be able to do.
I think thats silly... and I do fear for elites future as I see it might get dumbed down over time and that there would be no refuge for us outside of fanmade games and modding other games , in fact I wonder how many games I love today would get my love if it was not for mods

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It also tends to go:-

"This is fun, I'm challenged and dying a lot!"
"This isn't fun."
"Get better you entitled weakling! Don't take my thrills from me!"

Because, portentiously enough, the forums have two camps that hate each other! It's great, you don't even have to log in to see combat anymore! Truly life imitates fiction 8D

I hate COD and I dont go to there forums and asking for them to actualy make the games good
I hate darksouls for its nonsens lore and lack of logical weapons and its silly talking animals yet I dont go on the forums asking the devs to change it for me

 

[Bigglesof206]

Completely agree. People haven't always been the most diplomatic, but the conversation does tend to go:

"This sucks, it's impossible."
"Try this"
"I don't want to change. I shouldn't have to."

largely true, (I've seen quite a few of Ziljan's posts in the last few days, and agree with his viewpoint by and large).
I think there are still bugs around that are masking some of what is happening too though - submit-boost-jump with 4 pips to shields isn't helped if almost every attempt to submit produces an FSD fail (I think it's a graphics driver issue, not an ED issue). I wish I was recording, just to prove you CAN lose a well shielded and boosted Anaconda to an NPC, but things do rather have to conspire against you for it to happen.... still, what's 10MCr between chums?

I DO agree that the AI needed a boost, and on the whole I don't think there's a huge amount needed to fix things - I'm not really into combat (although I've killed thousands via undermining and BH, that was really just because they were good ways to raise the cash for new ships and equipment) and I'm the most meh combat pilot you'll find, my 88% Dangerous rating is a bit of a swindle to put it mildly. However, the upgraded AI needs to be there for those who want combat, who enjoy fighting decent opponents, and perhaps those who like combat but have felt a bit ifffy about doing it via PvP.

Couldn't we have it that those better AI NPCs didhn't spawn in the spacelanes where the traders are flying though? If you knew you could meet these guys any time you went into a res site, or a conflict zone, or dropped into a USS, or when you took an assassination mission, wouldn't that let the combat oriented guys looking for trouble find it easily? Then perhaps those playing the trading/exploring/mining game, which are supposed to be equally valid paths through ED after all, could encounter lesser levels of danger provided they stuck to flying from station A in one system to station B in another? We could have highly dangerous AI's in anarchy systems, and a galactic map that points them out when you plan routes, so that you can choose to go into them for combat, or avoid them for safety?

At heart I really don't see why increased danger/decreased danger has to be an either/or decision, surely good games design would provide for both?

I don't think it's necessarily the standard of the AI either - I suspect most of those unhappy about being shot at are unhappy at the ships/weapons they are being interdicted by - if you are in a trade ship (even a Tradeconda) you tend to view anyhting more than an annoyed Adder as a problem, getting an Elite Python or Conda up your chuff seems bit one sided.

Dave

 

[Privata]

I feel like the video is a bit unfair to be generally aimed at the forums, it's certainly been true of some elements but there's other bits that unfair because it's all cycling around being anti-paying for buffs, which isn't what happens here.

It's been very very strange to see many people offer to bend over backwards to help others and just be ignored and attacked - I'm actually a little surprised how low the level of "git gud" is, but some of those who've wanted to be super-angry and are super-determined to nerf the game into 'easy' mode really haven't wanted to listen and have cherry picked their responses

Some have and have posted since saying they have found help here trying what's been suggested and I commend them every one, especially if they were super-angry to start with.

But yeah, that video'ss too broad a stroke to apply here as it's context is a bit off

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I'm here for a cut throat galaxy, not a relaxing economy simulator that's not what it said this game was at all ever ever - is it?

The game was said to be a sequel to elite , a cut thorat galaxy were even trading is a massive risk.
I would like more economics but only if it does not change the games focus on being a dark gritty universe were life has no value

 

[frostypaw]

Couldn't we have it that those better AI NPCs didhn't spawn in the spacelanes where the traders are flying though? If you knew you could meet these guys any time you went into a res site, or a conflict zone, or dropped into a USS, or when you took an assassination mission, wouldn't that let the combat oriented guys looking for trouble find it easily? Then perhaps those playing the trading/exploring/mining game, which are supposed to be equally valid paths through ED after all, could encounter lesser levels of danger provided they stuck to flying from station A in one system to station B in another? We could have highly dangerous AI's in anarchy systems, and a galactic map that points them out when you plan routes, so that you can choose to go into them for combat, or avoid them for safety?

That's the idea, and mostly how it works now. The whole POINT in the spacelanes is to know you're more likely to get pirates hanging around along it, not the reverse.

Stick in high-sec and you're very safe - rarely are there not a bunch of green police blips on the radar - the moment I clipped another guy BH'ing I got messaged and they started dropping in moments later......

But bizarrely people are here asking for it to be fixed to be like it now is :S or at least how it's playing for me. If people's experiences are varying wildly then there's something more to be looked into

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

The gamer community IS entitled, I think that is a given.
What makes it in ED worse is the huge scope of the game. Some want complete alien flora and fauna (frankly, it ridiculous to think that it can be done in a credible way), others want to do FPS on space stations, again other want to have... who knows what.

 

[JuicerPrime]

The problem I have with that is that what's the point of the second comment? If someone is celebrating the game, why jump in negatively?

Oops, I should have expanded the second quote to "This isn't fun, I'm losing stuff a lot now." Being that the difficulty increase has left many, many players behind the curve. How many? No-one knows, because forum polls are terrible and prone to being pawed at by both the confused and the agenda-burdened.

I hate COD and I dont go to there forums and asking for them to actualy make the games good
I hate darksouls for its nonsens lore and lack of logical weapons and its silly talking animals yet I dont go on the forums asking the devs to change it for me

The AI changes are indeed unto that magnitude though. That which was once Diffculty 1 is now Difficulty 2, rather than going from 2 to 1 to 2 again via auto-rotation and shortcomings. Do you see? The glimpse of the Promised Land of eternal death and bloody sacrifice of credits and salt to the Elder God R'E'Buigh-Skriin is the new world, not the former world which has passed away. Now we all walk through the valley in the shadow of death, which is an Engineered 'Conda bearing down on us for the heresy of carrying limpets :O

You guys have caused so many problems I can't even. I just can't even

 

[Mark Lock]

Most common strawman argument I've seen this past week is accusation of people claiming they were told to "git gud". When in fact they had been given some specific tips on tactics on how to survive an encounter. Prior to 2.1, when someone made these kinds of helpful comments, the OP would graciously thank the advice giver, and that would be the end of the thread. Now it is clear that many of these posts, by people who clearly need help, no longer want help, they just want to complain until Frontier changes things back to 2.0 fish in a barrel farming simulator.

How do you logic your way out of that situation? You can't. It's all sophistry and histrionics.

This is what causes me some minor irritation, like fly just out of reach, whiners coming to the forum and clearly willing to to push FD to take AI back to 2.0 state