Endless donuts/loops in AI combat, even harmless-ranked AI's. New combat standard?

[Windscreen Smudge]

That's exactly what we have now actually. Reverse throttle tanking, because they can circle you so damned fast that the only option you really have in a ship of FDL or higher class is to reverse that throttle and start doing the same thing to the NPC, while being pounded in the face the entire time.

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Oh get off your arrogant high chair, buddy. The AI is broken. Period. If it can do things better than the vast majority of the player-base while being more efficient, responsive, and accurate while also have better weapons, thrusters, and other equipment, it's broken. Take your "git gud" nonsense and shove it.

I didn't say git gud. I said pay attention.

The AI can't do things better, faster, or more accurately than players. The AI is all over the place and honestly has a lot of problems right now. What the OP posted is exactly why the age-old phrase "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight" exists.

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ya however im pretty sure it also has something to do with the smallest ships in the game are able to take class 4 weapons to the face when shields are down and come out saying https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kx-S1BEMh0s skip to 30 seconds in.

I'm pretty sure you just linked to a shaky phone video of a clip from Disney's El Dorado. I mean, I could be mistaken, but I haven't been exposed to any hallucinatory substances lately so that's unlikely.

 

[Karl Marx]

I didn't say git gud. I said pay attention.

The AI can't do things better, faster, or more accurately than players. The AI is all over the place and honestly has a lot of problems right now. What the OP posted is exactly why the age-old phrase "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight" exists.

You didn't say the words, but you still said it. You also didn't say pay attention, you said, and I quote: "People are actually going to have to learn how to play the game now." - translation: people are going to have to git gud because they weren't before.

 

[[VR] Enexemander]

You didn't say the words, but you still said it. You also didn't say pay attention, you said, and I quote: "People are actually going to have to learn how to play the game now." - translation: people are going to have to git gud because they weren't before.

You don't have to get into turning battles. If they're turning in the Y axis, then boost off into the X axis. From there, you can either turn a large barrel roll and get into a joust situation, or you can flip your ship and fly backwards and fight them Face to Face on a moving vector.

If you don't fancy a fight, then instead of doing either of those you can High Wake out.

Pick which one you prefer. No, you can't out-turn an Imperial Eagle in a Python.

 

[Karl Marx]

You don't have to get into turning battles. If they're turning in the Y axis, then boost off into the X axis. From there, you can either turn a large barrel roll and get into a joust situation, or you can flip your ship and fly backwards and fight them Face to Face on a moving vector.

If you don't fancy a fight, then instead of doing either of those you can High Wake out.

Pick which one you prefer. No, you can't out-turn an Imperial Eagle in a Python.

The fact remains that neither of those options are GOOD. Jousting is as bad of a mechanic and reverse thrusting and is just as reliant on whoever had the biggest guns and the best accuracy and has nothing to do with skill. Given that the AI cheat with their accuracy and their weapons, they win 9 out of 10 times unless you someone manage to melt their faces with alpha damage and get them to run while spamming chaff.

 

[[VR] Enexemander]

The fact remains that neither of those options are GOOD. Jousting is as bad of a mechanic and reverse thrusting and is just as reliant on whoever had the biggest guns and the best accuracy and has nothing to do with skill. Given that the AI cheat with their accuracy and their weapons, they win 9 out of 10 times unless you someone manage to melt their faces with alpha damage and get them to run while spamming chaff.

They are good, depending on your ship versus their ship. If you're in a big ship with lots of shield and/or armor, you WANT to be fighting face to face with an agile little small ship that has none of those advantages. You'll destroy them in no time flat. If you're in a ship that hits REALLY hard with high dps but weak defenses, you want to be jousting to accent your advantage. Finally, if you're in an agile ship, you want to get into turning battles and win with your superior maneuvering ability.

It's basically a game of paper/rock/scissors.

 

[sqzbox1]

I've never been one to use the fly backwards technique since I prefer the dogfight style - more fun in my view - for me anyway. I fly a FAS BTW. But somehow, for the first time ever, when dog-fighting I ended up flying backwards. Came as a surprise to me I have to say. I was not TRYING to do this - I just ended up flying backwards as I was dog-fighting. Weird! So the AI tactics seem to foster it in some strange way. Now I am not one who believes that they cheat. That there are bugs - I am sure. Do the bugs matter? Not really (now that the uber-weapons are gone) because you can escape when it turns to custard, and eventually the bugs will be squashed. So I enjoy combat more now that the endless rolling NPC actually stops rolling and shoots back. I'm being forced to be more sophisticated in my dog-fighting abilities and this is a good thing for me as it forces me to find new ways to fly.

But I have to say, if flying backwards enables me to actually be able to shoot at a sidey or eagle because I can actually see it in front of me, then how is that a bad thing? Seems to me to be a valid tactic to use against more nimble ships - yeah? Unless there is some sort of bonus for style? No? Then it is all about survival and who gets the kill and personally, I prefer that it be me.

 

[Hatchepsut]

I wish people would stop referring to the current NPC as AI.
They are not AI in any sense of the word.
They are Infinite Ammo Cheating AimBots that have instant access to ship movements that no normal player would ever be able to achieve.
They do not THINK .... or even pretend to be human and flawed like us .... they only do silly things when their program does not know what to do next.

 

[Karl Marx]

They are good, depending on your ship versus their ship. If you're in a big ship with lots of shield and/or armor, you WANT to be fighting face to face with an agile little small ship that has none of those advantages. You'll destroy them in no time flat. If you're in a ship that hits REALLY hard with high dps but weak defenses, you want to be jousting to accent your advantage. Finally, if you're in an agile ship, you want to get into turning battles and win with your superior maneuvering ability.

It's basically a game of paper/rock/scissors.

Nah. That doesn't sound good at all. That sounds like a crap-shoot.

 

[DukeIronHand]

I wish people would stop referring to the current NPC as AI.
They are not AI in any sense of the word.
They are Infinite Ammo Cheating AimBots that have instant access to ship movements that no normal player would ever be able to achieve.
They do not THINK .... or even pretend to be human and flawed like us .... they only do silly things when their program does not know what to do next.

Huh?
P.S. More because I need 8 characters but am I going to regret engaging you on this topic?

 

[sqzbox1]

I wish people would stop referring to the current NPC as AI.
They are not AI in any sense of the word.
They are Infinite Ammo Cheating AimBots that have instant access to ship movements that no normal player would ever be able to achieve.
They do not THINK .... or even pretend to be human and flawed like us .... they only do silly things when their program does not know what to do next.

Nonsense! If what you say were true then no-one could EVER beat them. And like everything else in this game the reference to AI is really just a shortcut reference to "the simulation of an AI in a game" but who is going to write that every time they want to use it? Everybody else seems to understand that - why don't you?

And if I remember correctly (can't recall the reference post itself) SJA has already said that introduction of human-like time delays is being phased in. So this is either already there in some cases or will be soon. This is a real-world approach and called "iterative refinement" - it is the way things are done. So get off your high horse alright?

 

[[VR] Enexemander]

Nah. That doesn't sound good at all. That sounds like a crap-shoot.

If you don't like backwards flying or jousting, you don't have to do it. That's kind of the beauty of it. You can buy yourself a zippy little agile ship that can turn battle with the best of them. If you do the engineer thing, you can have a ship that in unequivocally better than anything the NPCs have to offer.

That sounds like a great amount of freedom, to me. And it's why I have more than one ship- I enjoy flying in more than one style. I have an Imperial Eagle to turn battle, and my Python (fitted for mining) does really well against attackers as a tanky ship. Maybe when I get the rank for it, (18% to go!) I'll grab an FAS and try to build that jousting glass cannon.

 

[Darrett]

They are good, depending on your ship versus their ship. If you're in a big ship with lots of shield and/or armor, you WANT to be fighting face to face with an agile little small ship that has none of those advantages. You'll destroy them in no time flat. If you're in a ship that hits REALLY hard with high dps but weak defenses, you want to be jousting to accent your advantage. Finally, if you're in an agile ship, you want to get into turning battles and win with your superior maneuvering ability.

It's basically a game of paper/rock/scissors.

Except the AI breaks that mold. I haven't seen them post hot fix, but before the hot fix FDLs and Cobras were perfectly capable of locking Eagles in turning battles, even blue zoning with 4 ENG pips. The Eagle pilot can force a head to head, but that ends badly.

My assumption was that they were using engineer drive mods, but with continued reports coming out about high maneuverability, it makes me wonder if something else is to blame.

 

[thorn-]

Tell me: If the AI is cheating with impossible maneuvers, how am I possibly beating it on a regular basis? Because I am. Many people are.

 

[CMDR Mr S]

Let me guess, you were flying a fat Large class ship and expecting to have the same turn rate as a ship 1/10th your size that isn't carrying any useless weight?

Yeah, that's going to be a problem for ya.

I'm so glad 2.1 hit the player base like a half-brick between the eyes. People are actually going to have to learn how to play the game now.

Ok, so you are that much better than all of us. Good for you. Let us talk now.

 

[[VR] Enexemander]

Except the AI breaks that mold. I haven't seen them post hot fix, but before the hot fix FDLs and Cobras were perfectly capable of locking Eagles in turning battles, even blue zoning with 4 ENG pips. The Eagle pilot can force a head to head, but that ends badly.

My assumption was that they were using engineer drive mods, but with continued reports coming out about high maneuverability, it makes me wonder if something else is to blame.

Turning battles seem to have the highest skill requirement when you're talking agile ship versus agile ship. A cobra mk3 is QUITE nimble and no one should be surprised that a well piloted cobra can win against an eagle in a traditional dogfight, for example.

I've been really surprised how happily the AI will fight you just the way you want to fight, without disengaging to try a different tactic. If you feel you can't win with a small agile ship in a turning battle with the AI, it's time to bail. So long as you make that determination early, you'll be fine.

 

[bossbrigand]

Ok, so you are that much better than all of us. Good for you. Let us talk now.

It's called threat assessment. Small, agile ships are a threat to big, slow ships. A pack of Eagles can easily kill an Anaconda now - that's half of what they're designed for. Even a lone Eagle in good hands can pose a threat.

If you're flying a ship that cannot maneuver as well as a smaller target and cannot reliably land hits on it, do not engage the smaller ship in a turn fight. If you cannot outrun the smaller, more maneuverable ship, don't engage it at all. You cannot dictate the terms of an engagement against a ship that's smaller and more nimble than yours, and this is even more true when your ship isn't exactly outfitted for combat.

I fly a Clipper. I quickly learned what I can and can't fight. In my case I can handle any enemy ship on its own but a wing of almost anything can seriously damage or destroy me. Don't forget that when you're in a large ship, small ships are bugs on your windshield. Don't be afraid to use your hull as a weapon when the opportunity presents itself.

 

[Edd Jordan]

I love the new battles and yes you have to choose them, and actually fly your ship and learn new flying styles for each ship. also i bet almost everyone who is learning those new styles aren't on here complaining, there in space having a wicked time.

 

[We Are Groot]

If you do the engineer thing, you can have a ship that in unequivocally better than anything the NPCs have to offer.

That sounds like a great amount of freedom, to me.

So what happens when the NPC's can no longer compete with all the modded ships? They will be too easy won't they since the ships you are flying are far superior according to what you just said. The difficulty of the NPC's will have to be raised even more then? What about when the Thargoids come and they are suppose to be a real threat?

What are the people who find it difficult already going to do then? What if they are not interested in Engineers? Will they be at a real disadvantage if they avoid that? Do they have a great amount of freedom when it comes to that? From what I have been reading there seems to be less freedom in how you go about doing things now and won't that only increase in the future? Probably pretty good for those who love combat? Mayne not so good for those who don't?

 

[Xae]

God forbid there's actual dog fighting now rather than reverse throttle tanking...

Surprise, surprise.

You are completely and 100% wrong.

Reverse throttle tanking is the best way to deal with the new AI since it is basically hardcoded to try to get behind you.

 

[BACKER #-4112]

There are some strange things happening. And very different accounts given. I'm finding shields are not what they used to be, unless it's my imagination.
Flimley.

I doubt that it's your imagination. I too have experienced some strange things, in different ships. Getting my Python shields (with shield boosters) fried and taking the hull down to less than 50% in a matter of seconds by smaller ships.
I feel that with the new weapons the NPCs are sporting, perhaps the shields should have got a bit of attention too.
Thought about starting a thread on shields (post 2.1) to see the opinions of others, but the Forum environment seems quite volatile after the last update.