Endless donuts/loops in AI combat, even harmless-ranked AI's. New combat standard?
- Thread starter AluminumAlloy
- Start date
It seems that I do the opposite to everybody else. Those NPCs fly towards you in order to get behind, so, as they come at you, use full reverse and down-thrust. As they pass, let go of the down-thrust, but continue full reverse and pitch up to bring them back in front of you. You can speed it up a bit with a short period of FA off, but that's not necessary on small ships. The down-thrust makes their missiles, PAs, etc fly over your head when they're flying towards you.
Yup - I made a video of a FDS NPC and Viper NPC in the same rut - going round and round and round for 7 minutes - I was waiting to get my Conda's Shields recharged when I came across this. Guess even NPC's have to deal with this silly mechanic too!
Its insane - I can imagine the FDS Pilot - were he real - going :
Drokk this Drokking drokker who drokking stays behind my drokking butt all the drokking time!
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That is you interpretation on what he is say, YOU are adding the "git good" as you get out of free jail card on any point of view you don't like
"What you really mean when you say" is you changing what anyone says to something that fits your narrative.
If the only way you can get you point across is by Telling people what they actually mean and putting words in their mouth, then you have no real argument.
Because I am pretty sure you would be the first to cry foul if people started telling you what you really meant when you said x y z
What is wrong with a Harmless NPC Sidewinder, trying to use a small ships manoeuvrability to stay out of a big ships fire arc so they don't die.
Self Preservation in NPCs should not be a thing restricted to X rank or above
Are NPCs not allowed to dodge now?
Are harmless NPC ships to just fly in straight lines now?
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The new AI is just as bad as the old one, but in a different way.
Before it was dead easy to simply 'pin' the target and never take damage, regardless of what they were flying. Thus, every fight played out the same way once you learned the tactic as it was never not effective.
Current AI tries to joust or out-turn you based on distance, they never do anything else. The ship with the most DPS and/or EHP wins. It's predictable, boring, and favors high DPS low efficiency weapons over others.
Before it was dead easy to simply 'pin' the target and never take damage, regardless of what they were flying. Thus, every fight played out the same way once you learned the tactic as it was never not effective.
Current AI tries to joust or out-turn you based on distance, they never do anything else. The ship with the most DPS and/or EHP wins. It's predictable, boring, and favors high DPS low efficiency weapons over others.
Nah, if I was better than the OP I'd brag about how I swat small ships in my 'Vette all day, and he needs to git gud or something along those lines.
Instead I'm saying that there's no way in hell I'd run around picking fights against agile, fast ships when I'm flying a space whale, because I don't like getting humiliated. OP doesn't like it very much either, hence the thread.
If you're in a hard locked blue zone turning battle, a maneuverability 6 Cobra has no chance of beating a maneuverability 10 eagle outside of thruster mods. The Cobra should be using its superior shields and weaponry and using FA off turns to force head to head confrontations, but will not, outside of engineer mods, be able to turn as fast as the eagle unless someone is not using engine pips or vertical thrusters.
From what I've seen post 2.1, and with continued reports after 2.1.02, I'd say some NPCs have thruster mods pushing their turn rates well above the capability of most stock A rated setups. It's not an AI thing, it's a load out advantage thing.
Edit- just to make it clear, this isn't a good thing. I fully expect that once we start getting thruster mods to rival what the NPCs have, we'll be right back to using pulse lasers for efficiency because we'll be able to stay on their six so long. The only reason we can't now is because they have such a maneuverability advantage.
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Really, you actually don't have a choice. Buy one of those tiny agile ships and they'll just SCB and you'll rarely ever get their shields down. That means you can't really make money and you're also very fragile.
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Good question. Go record a few videos in a FDL or higher ship, lets see your 1337 skillz, man.
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There's this thing that's often used in critical reading and is a basic skill within it, it's called "reading between the lines" or "reading to uncover intent". He was saying it. He was just being more polite than most. It's like beating around the bush when trying to tell a friend that they were acting like idiots, they'll not come right out and say it but they'll sure as hell hint at it.
Oh, and btw, I'm not talking about sidewinders, I'm talking about Condas that outmaneuver FDLs, Pythons that outmaneuver Cobras. That kind of thing.
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I usually try the reverse tactic in the corvette but I've had a few that didn't work on in which case I tried boosting away then flipping over with flight assist off (not so easy with kb/mouse) and once they are in the sights of the huge multicannons they either die or are damaged and lose some of that agility.
Honestly, even after resetting my save for the new patch and getting interdicted in a sidewinder, I was still able to tear a mostly harmless Viper in 2. I've yet to see these chaos-infused ships of godly AI performance at low threat levels. :c
Yeah, you won't really find any when they're "mostly harmless".
Ah yes the I know what they are really saying even if you cannot see it routine.
Shall we do that for your posts then?
By speaking in a patronising way about there is this thing called.... You are really saying you consider anyone who disagrees with you your intellectual inferior you need to school up, because how could anyone who knows anything now agree whole heartily with your point of view. Now you'll disagree with me saying this because I could be as smart as you and don't really understand reading between the lines", but that's okay because I am a detractors so my options are not valid anyway.
As that is what you do in every thread your in.
The OP was talking about a Sidewinder, in the OP, Harmless Adders and Sidewinders....
hence the
to separate the post
Somewhat ironic you missed the large line separating my post, and feel to point out the skill of "reading between the lines"
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I have to say that while i have mentioned already a few times i have issues with the new AI, i only ever really get in trouble 1 on 1 when they're master or above. In conflict zones i can fight with my clipper fine (someone in early posts here said not to get a hybrid in CZ, i'm not as safe as in my vulture but i'm doing ok) although i have to pick my targets. But i've yet to see a novice or under who i can't catch up to and that's from someone who has yet to use FA off (yeah yeah i know...look until now the game didnt require you to, i'm realising i'll have to get around to learning it now)... I faced 3 expert FDL in a row 1 on 1 (not at the same time) today (not in CZ) and while it took me a lot of endless looping/maneuvering on their back while adjusting speed to get them, i still beat them.
Reports of elite skilled harmless and novice, especially from people who know how to use fa off, seems a bit exaggerated or at least highly unusual.
Its true that probably even a expert eagle could fly circles around my vulture or clipper but since they have limited firepower compared to these ships, i don't need to get on their tail, i can face them head to head and come out on top.
Reports of elite skilled harmless and novice, especially from people who know how to use fa off, seems a bit exaggerated or at least highly unusual.
Its true that probably even a expert eagle could fly circles around my vulture or clipper but since they have limited firepower compared to these ships, i don't need to get on their tail, i can face them head to head and come out on top.
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The 2.1 NPCs have started using better combat tactics.
1) they are turning hard, so they're harder to hit,
2) they try to get behind you, so they're out of your main weapon's arcs,
3) they try to get out of weapons range while their shields recharge,
4) when using fixed weapons they seem to have better ship-aiming capability than I do with my joystick - I don't think they're cheating as such, I just think their ships are thought-controlled with no lag,
5) they use module targeting now,
6) they use SCBs,
7) they use power settings,
8) they use missiles (and missiles have been de-nerfed) - I've only been killed once since 2.1, and that was by missiles. I've now fitted Point Defence, which I never needed before.
9) they have some Engineered modules - I expect that as the number of CMDRs with Engineered modules increases so will the number of NPCs with them.
10) they boost away, FA-Off, turn 180, fire,
11) they stop firing gimbals/turrets when you use chaff (see 7),
12) they use chaff (haven't seen one with PDs yet though),
I do not doubt that Sarah and her team have spent many hours watching CMDR v CMDR videos on youtube, while taking detailed notes. This is only part of the result. They have more up their sleeves (and there are Thargoids out there somewhere).
What can you do?
Don't fly in a straight line. You'll die. Use rolls, turns, thrusters, boost, FA-Off all at the same time when running for your life!
Fit PDs.
Learn to do what they do.
As their combat rating increases, so do their tactics. As your combat rating increases the average combat rating of the NPCs you face will increase. That doesn't mean you'll never face an Elite NPC until you're Elite, it does mean there are going to be times when your only option is to run!
Fly safe CMDRs.
1) they are turning hard, so they're harder to hit,
2) they try to get behind you, so they're out of your main weapon's arcs,
3) they try to get out of weapons range while their shields recharge,
4) when using fixed weapons they seem to have better ship-aiming capability than I do with my joystick - I don't think they're cheating as such, I just think their ships are thought-controlled with no lag,
5) they use module targeting now,
6) they use SCBs,
7) they use power settings,
8) they use missiles (and missiles have been de-nerfed) - I've only been killed once since 2.1, and that was by missiles. I've now fitted Point Defence, which I never needed before.
9) they have some Engineered modules - I expect that as the number of CMDRs with Engineered modules increases so will the number of NPCs with them.
10) they boost away, FA-Off, turn 180, fire,
11) they stop firing gimbals/turrets when you use chaff (see 7),
12) they use chaff (haven't seen one with PDs yet though),
I do not doubt that Sarah and her team have spent many hours watching CMDR v CMDR videos on youtube, while taking detailed notes. This is only part of the result. They have more up their sleeves (and there are Thargoids out there somewhere).
What can you do?
Don't fly in a straight line. You'll die. Use rolls, turns, thrusters, boost, FA-Off all at the same time when running for your life!
Fit PDs.
Learn to do what they do.
As their combat rating increases, so do their tactics. As your combat rating increases the average combat rating of the NPCs you face will increase. That doesn't mean you'll never face an Elite NPC until you're Elite, it does mean there are going to be times when your only option is to run!
Fly safe CMDRs.
I wish they'd program the AI to make it seem as though we are fighting other pilots and not robots programmed to glue themselves to your tail pipe.
Here's the thing. The AI is currently having to parse all of these rules; thou shalt:
- not be allowed to run
- not be allowed to leave
- be allowed to run
- be allowed to leave sometimes
- not shoot 24/7
- shoot at some point 24/7
- not be a genuine risk
- be sort of a risk? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- sit still all the time
- not sit still all the time
- not be a genuine threat
- be some sort of threat? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- not be dazed or confused
- be dazed or confused sometimes
- be dazed or confused always
- not face tank at all
- face tank sometimes so commanders can see the white's of their eyes (mah immersion!)
- not be stupid rolling potato because lulz (mah immersion!)
- be a stupid rolling potato because lulz (mah credits!)
- ..
- ..
- ..
This is called being decision challenged and is a huge issue for AI programing (much like it is for actual people); there are so many cross purpose requirements some or all of which may be mutually exclusive, or equally important, that the AI becomes susceptible to something that actually happens to humans as well.
When there are so many input factors, the code is unable to find a specific solution; so the AI literally chooses to not choose. Commanders are demanding so many caveats in AI, they've gone from (ruthlessly) effective to confused modules flying in formation. All that probably needed to happen, was to tone the ruthlessness down.
Instead, bandwagons of people are all making their "immersion" demands and we're back to hopelessly confused AI. And SJA had done such a fantastic job during beta..
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They did. During Beta, the AI was scary, but really really good. The community decided it wasn't acceptable, in any way shape or form. Unfortunately the AI insta-gib weapons glitch (that wasn't in beta) poisoned the well.
So back to pre-2.0 AI behaviours we go.
Here's the thing. The AI is currently having to parse all of these rules; thou shalt:
- not be allowed to run
- not be allowed to leave
- be allowed to run
- be allowed to leave sometimes
- not shoot 24/7
- shoot at some point 24/7
- not be a genuine risk
- be sort of a risk? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- sit still all the time
- not sit still all the time
- not be a genuine threat
- be some sort of threat? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- not be dazed or confused
- be dazed or confused sometimes
- be dazed or confused always
- not face tank at all
- face tank sometimes so commanders can see the white's of their eyes (mah immersion!)
- not be stupid rolling potato because lulz (mah immersion!)
- be a stupid rolling potato because lulz (mah credits!)
- ..
- ..
- ..
This is called being decision challenged and is a huge issue for AI programing (much like it is for actual people); there are so many cross purpose requirements some or all of which may be mutually exclusive, or equally important, that the AI becomes susceptible to something that actually happens to humans as well.
When there are so many input factors, the code is unable to find a specific solution; so the AI literally chooses to not choose. Commanders are demanding so many caveats in AI, they've gone from (ruthlessly) effective to confused modules flying in formation. All that probably needed to happen, was to tone the ruthlessness down.
Instead, bandwagons of people are all making their "immersion" demands and we're back to hopelessly confused AI. And SJA had done such a fantastic job during beta..
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They did. During Beta, the AI was scary, but really really good. The community decided it wasn't acceptable, in any way shape or form. Unfortunately the AI insta-gib weapons glitch (that wasn't in beta) poisoned the well.
So back to pre-2.0 AI behaviours we go.
Oh . Why does it always have to be "it'll be 2.0 AI again!" with you people? The AI is just as idiotic now as it was before, only now they are berserkers with a grudge and one g tactic that they use. Every. Single. Time. It just reinforces the fact that you're fighting a robot that literally cannot make mistakes within its' routine, sort of like an automated canning machine, but can be defeated by using the one tactic they can't beat, and using it every single fight. It's like fighting the AI in an RTS game that doesn't know how to use inventive tactics, so just compensates by having 100% situational awareness, flawless micromanagement, and a perfect economy, but can't handle a particular unit when massed.
I don't understand why some people are gushing and guffawing over the new AI. It doesn't react or adapt at all, and is easily countered by by reverse boosting and pitching with FA-off. This isn't dogfighting. I'm not even sure what to call it. The old AI was more fun to fight, minus the occasional spinning in place bug.