Let's discuss the skill gap in Elite Dangerous between players

[ShimEnki]

For me, one of the issues was there was a pretty big jump in the AI skill level and people got taken completely by surprise. I really like the new AI but it is a lot tougher and if you aren't expecting it you can get into a lot of trouble very quickly. You have to adapt to the new AI and the biggest thing is knowing when to run and when to fight. I also had a thought about creating 3 levels of CZ and Res's a low, medium and high so that all levels of pilot could participate. Rewards would be higher at the high res but the risk would be a lot higher as well.

That tune of "You have to adapt to the new AI" instead of expanding the game to insert / localize this new Ai with rambos running about using supposed Ai that exceeds player ship limitations is causing adaptation alright, but not the dsired type im sure unless FD wants to sanitize its player base of those that dont care for this heightened intensity all the time; otherwise FD will " get into trouble very quickly" with this mentality with a diminishing player base that wont be as easily recouoped as a ship rebuy.

 

[Jools]

-cough- you forgot to download the update.
Police arrives in 15ish seconds in a high security system.

true (only since very recently though) but it does not change the behaviour of NPCs, and cops are generally worthless anyway (the game is quite realistic here heh)

Anyway, that is not the point, the variety between systems is still too low, and crime and punishment is very flawed as of now... AI is imo pretty good and does not need to be changed (a lot of work has been put into it) despite the fact I`m getting my ass kicked pretty often. It`s better to focus on fleshing out the other parts to accommodate the improved AI and a wide skill gap between players

 

[Boomer Kay]

Anyway, that is not the point, the variety between systems is still to low,

Wrote that some pages ago ... you have a 90% interdiction possibility in Low Sec Anarchy *) and a 1-5% probability in high security .. how much more variation is there even possible?

*) not that this matters all too much, if you fly correctly, you can avoid 99% of the interdictions regardless of security level and they first have to interdict you to shoot ^^

Ooh, and forgot to mention .. you have combat ships all over the place now, when there's War/Civil war.
Just casually noted that few days ago while approaching an outpost (non-military) which was patroled by one of the faction's "System defence force" ships. So better be careful who's reputation you crash.

 

[uppsju]

Just after the release of Engineers (but I think before the patch about which weapon mods they could use), I was flying my A rated Python and got interdicted by an Eagle with two buddies joining the fight.
They were hammering me with railguns, and I barely got out with about 20% hull.
My reaction? "    , I need to get better"

The only time I got a bit frustrated was when I was taking off from a planet in my Python and two DBS and an Adder shot my thrusters to pieces and I lost 8 mill
It felt like I was playing FTL: Fasther Than Light

 

[Jools]

Wrote that some pages ago ... you have a 90% interdiction possibility in Low Sec Anarchy *) and a 1-5% probability in high security .. how much more variation is there even possible?

Well it certainly does not work like that for me,
it would also help if the states were instantly recognizable outside of galaxy map like it was described in the early dev diaries

*) not that this matters all too much, if you fly correctly, you can avoid 99% of the interdictions regardless of security level and they first have to interdict you to shoot ^^

again partially correct... but... Well many (most probably most) players don`t know how to fly correctly, we have been here probably since alpha or release, but think of a new player... or a casual sunday pilot... there is no place for new players to start and learn without frustration like lets say SOL-Barnards Star in FE2

also the game does a very poor job in teaching players how to do things correctly, so how would they know? People have limited time and you can`t expect them to spent hours searching the forums, using third party tools, watching videos, reading about hundreads of changes that happen both in code (meaning balancing from patches) and in the BGS/Powerplay

Having areas with wide variety of safety (including zones whare its always safe unless some Major event happens - and that event should be instantly noticeable to everyone in the system, so they can take notice and react accordingly) benefits everybody and is a detriment to no one

 

[Boomer Kay]

also the game does a very poor job in teaching players how to do things correctly, so how would they know? People have limited time and you can`t expect them to spent hours searching the forums, using third party tools, watching videos, reading about hundreads of changes that happen both in code (meaning balancing from patches) and in the BGS/Powerplay

I tried the "no 3rd party site" approach. Didn't work. Don't have the time to try out everything by myself. The days where I was hardcore, endgame raiding elite with 8 hours gameplay time a day are over. (I even deleted my first save after a week or three, because I borked so much up ^^)

On the other hand, it's 2016, people are online 24/7. Maybe instead of posting and reading silly facebook updates and looking for the latest funny kitten video, one could consider watching an educational ED video every now and then?
It's not like someone is forcing you to play ED. You decided you want to play ED. Cut back on the kittens. They'll survive.

 

[Mr_Blastman]

I think the skillgap is a big one and that is a good thing. That means there's skillful combat and gameplay.

 

[Jools]

I tried the "no 3rd party site" approach. Didn't work. Don't have the time to try out everything by myself. The days where I was hardcore, endgame raiding elite with 8 hours gameplay time a day are over. (I even deleted my first save after a week or three, because I borked so much up ^^)

Prooves my point

On the other hand, it's 2016, people are online 24/7. Maybe instead of posting and reading silly facebook updates and looking for the latest funny kitten video, one could consider watching an educational ED video every now and then?
It's not like someone is forcing you to play ED. You decided you want to play ED. Cut back on the kittens. They'll survive.

Gaming is supposed to be entertainment, and relaxation... It has no more value than watching kittens...
People have jobs... where they learn, solve problems, make hard decisions, fight with obstacles and frustration.... and when they come back home they want to have fun, relax, enjoy their time . And games, being entertainment products, should provide the means to achieve those goals (even the old elite games, although known as pretty unforgiving, provided those options via saves and possibly for some, cheats - they were also far more immediate and had faster progression). Forcing people to find info on the "out of game world" media is not a good game design (although pretty popular these days)

Of course many people, including you and me, can often find those things in beating challenges... good for them... notice that nowhere have i made a suggestion to nerf the AI... But why oppose the creation of 100% safe zones for the newbies and higher/better working system security variety is a thing i cannot understand..

I really think that what I said would not make your game worse in any way and would improve the ED experience for many people and that is why I don`t understand why you try to combat my suggestion so much

 

[Siranui]

Well it certainly does not work like that for me,

In the last 2 weeks I've *really* noticed the wide variation of system safety. If you plan a 'safe system' route, things are...safer.

Granted it takes planning and forethought. But that's a good thing, surely? Sure: We can just plot a route and Launch... OR we can take a couple of minutes and plan a safer route, which makes things safer by a very considerable margin.
Put like this I don't thin I've lost a ship in a high-security system in the last two weeks. I've died (a lot), but never anywhere 'safe'.

it would also help if the states were instantly recognizable outside of galaxy map

It would be nice to have a little system level warning on the dashboard I agree... but it's a bit late by then because you're there, and if it's not on the galaxy map, where would it be?

but think of a new player... or a casual sunday pilot... there is no place for new players to start and learn without frustration

Based on my sample size of me, the learning curve was steep, but not unassailable. To be honest, I was so keen to dive into the game that I only did the first training scenario, plus 'landing' 'take off', and never read the manual.
The first night was... stressful. Fun, but intense. It was hard, but not insurmountable.

 

[Adept]

"Personal" record so far: 15 seconds for the cops to arrive after first shots were fired. High-sec. Low-sec they can take anything from 45 sec (fast) to Never. Not sure if local rep has any bearing to the numbers. In high-rep high-sec system it seems that the cops arrive in greater numbers, tho - and they don't waste time scanning you, they beeline to your aggressor (if you tagged them 'wanted') right away.

Yes, it has already become much, much better I hope the default setting for "report crimes against me" is on. As an Alpha backer and bounty hunter I'm used to fiddling with it myself.

I still find the "grace period" to be cheating btw. To get the bounty on a mark the player should do >50% of the damage in taking it down, or the plurality if there are many combatants.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

that sounds pretty reasonable to me. I certianly felt the police were more on the ball recently and when getting my ass handed to me by a deadly conda, when I saw the calvary drop in, gave me another option from jumping out.... I ran to them instead. Still yet to "die" in 2.1 though had a few squeeky bum moments

I must say your baby avatar adds something awesome to your feedback Mike. I had forgotten about that

 

[Boomer Kay]

I really think that what I said would not make your game worse in any way and would improve the ED experience for many people and that is why I don`t understand why you try to combat my suggestion so much

Because the handholding has to end at one point in time and then we're at the same place we started. "It's all too hard". You're not going to "save" anything like that.

(and I have a 10 hr job where the wrong push of a button can literally cost the company millions and me my job, my own little sidebusiness, practice 2-3x a week, expensive ex-wife, new girlfriend (just one .. had to cut back on that .. my grandpa is 94 and has 3, youngest of them is 36 ... ... ... everyone needs a hobby), 3 patchwork kids, 2 patchwork grandkids with the 3rd on the way and find some time to read up on some stuffs so people "having a job and no time" to me translates to "cannot possibly be bothered, but still want", since I have the same 24 hours a day)

 

[Jools]

In the last 2 weeks I've *really* noticed the wide variation of system safety. If you plan a 'safe system' route, things are...safer.

As I said, the improvement is noticeable (and very recent) but still not optimal

It would be nice to have a little system level warning on the dashboard I agree... but it's a bit late by then because you're there, and if it's not on the galaxy map, where would it be?

I like the dashboard idea too but i was thinking about something more like the things that John Laws has described early on:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NSMMTfwTOU&t=1m13s

Based on my sample size of me, the learning curve was steep, but not unassailable. To be honest, I was so keen to dive into the game that I only did the first training scenario, plus 'landing' 'take off', and never read the manual.
The first night was... stressful. Fun, but intense. It was hard, but not insurmountable.

You like me, are probably a gamer for life, you have high skills in general, its far easier for our types to learn to play. But we should be aware of those less skilled and with less time too, especially, when catering to their needs does not take anything from my experience.

Try to understand the others... It took me 2 years just to learn the very basics in Fe2 and about 10 years to learn to play it properly (i was a young kid with no understanding of English), and i had a blast doing so.... but today when i try to play some other old unforgiving games like frontier, I usually just give up, because i don`t have this much time and i don`t have this much drive any more, and even when i don`t give up i still see that the game would be improved if made more accessible for the beginners. It is possible to have a demanding complex game with minor to no hand holding and be noob friendly at the same time in my opinion

Because the handholding has to end at one point in time and then we're at the same place we started. "It's all too hard". You're not going to "save" anything like that.

(and I have a 10 hr job where the wrong push of a button can literally cost the company millions and me my job, my own little sidebusiness, practice 2-3x a week, expensive ex-wife, new girlfriend (just one .. had to cut back on that .. my grandpa is 94 and has 3, youngest of them is 36 ... ... ... everyone needs a hobby), 3 patchwork kids, 2 patchwork grandkids with the 3rd on the way and find some time to read up on some stuffs so people "having a job and no time" to me translates to "cannot possibly be bothered, but still want", since I have the same 24 hours a day)

Ok lets end it here. I don`t think we can come to a consensus (i think at this point we do understand each other and our points but still cannot agree), so there is no point arguing any further. Thanx for a good discussion!

 

[JuicerPrime]

That's why with 2.1 update Elite reached the level of enjoyment and gameplay depth as never seen before. The ones saying "It's to hard" are just to much used to pre-2.1 version of the game. Those voices will fade away as soon as new, fresh Commanders will jump into game, guys that wont have a clue how limited the gameplay was pre-2.1. When this will happen finally the threads like "I'm having a Python and they killed me!!! This game is broken!!" will gone in the wind!!!!!! Can't wait for this to happen!

You can't wait to lose other players, players who have paid money so you can continue to enjoy the game and presumably want to be a part of the community too, just because you don't want to hear complaints anymore? Even by the forum's usual standards that's pretty low Gaarp [sour]

The only time I got a bit frustrated was when I was taking off from a planet in my Python and two DBS and an Adder shot my thrusters to pieces and I lost 8 mill
It felt like I was playing FTL: Fasther Than Light

FTL is great fun because it's designed to be short(ish) and punchy, with quick progression and no lasting consequences - even though it has escalating difficulty and the ever-present risk of vaccuum-sucking death there's no loss of permanent earned resources, you just start a new game. If like ED does you had a pool of earned gubbins that you used to buy new ships permanently and lost them every time you died, removing your unlocks and reverting your ship back through smaller and smaller spaceframes until you ended up back in the starter ship, it'd probably be a lot less enjoyable. This is one of ED's underlying mechanics though, so it's probably less about skill gaps than it is about layering consequences for failure to pilot on top of each other until every bug-created death is a sandwich of salt, poop and sadness, with only the promise of more to come - unless you like dying and losing all your stuff, in which case hooray! [wacky]

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

I must say your baby avatar adds something awesome to your feedback Mike. I had forgotten about that

well the good news is, so long as the game is still going in 10 years time, i will hopefully have a wingman by then. Chances are he will fly better than me as well

of course i will make him play the 1984 version 1st

 

[Siranui]

Try to understand the others... It took me 2 years just to learn the very basics in Fe2 and about 10 years to learn to play it properly (i was a young kid with no understanding of English), and i had a blast doing so.... but today when i try to play some other old unforgiving games like frontier, I usually just give up, because i don`t have this much time and i don`t have this much drive any more, and even when i don`t give up i still see that the game would be improved if made more accessible for the beginners. It is possible to have a demanding complex game with minor to no hand holding and be noob friendly at the same time in my opinion

I empathise to a point, I really do.

And I don't have any issue with making those first 6 hours of gameplay easier, by way of more training missions, and maybe a more secure starting system. A walk-through mission, perhaps.

(Personally, my own methodology was to simply fly about in a Sidewinder without upgrading, knowing that any mistakes would not cost me anything. Oh, and I wiped my me after three hours, due to accidental bounties! Short version: I did not do the training, but I countered this with not valuing my 'career' and ship until I got myself a Cobra.)

That said, although I don't mind the game being a little easier to learn, I don't want it becoming easier overall. and ED is never going to be 'candy crush saga easy'; it's a slimmed down flight sim, plus trading game, with a bunch of other stuff. Ultimately some people are going to be outside of its audience, and some of those people are going to mistakenly purchase it, believing it to be more of an arcade game than a sim.

 

[Mephane]

I still find the "grace period" to be cheating btw. To get the bounty on a mark the player should do >50% of the damage in taking it down, or the plurality if there are many combatants.

It's a gameplay compromise and it was utterly frustrating before that. And I must say I like how it allows smaller fighters to jump into a fray of a police vs Anaconda battle and get paid for it, it's just simply fun.

 

[Chummy62]

No intention to compare ED to Minecraft. Both are very different games. What I am comparing is how one game is approachable to a very large audience and one is a niche. But as some people have noted, they are good with ED being a niche game. If David, FD and the board are all good with that; then I am wasting my time here. I'm one of the people still looking for a game with more imagination, greater depth and less focus on being purely combat oriented.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

But as some people have noted, they are good with ED being a niche game. If David, FD and the board are all good with that; then I am wasting my time here. I'm one of the people still looking for a game with more imagination, greater depth and less focus on being purely combat oriented.

Hold your horses..... being happy with ED being a niche game and wanting more complexity and depth are NOT exclusive

Indeed if you look at Hollywood blockbusters vs British film 4 type films I suggest it is often the little indie title with the greater depth

 

[micky1984]

The skill gap is massive because Fd through allowing easy mode (solo) with low skill Ai opponents and a vast amount of players played it that way and wer enot challenged for many months and allowing this easy swappping of modes created this players that wanted to play safe and really safe were allowed to do so many of us predicted this backlash against computer opponents months ago lock solo and lock open only being able to change with a clear save will IMHO make players play better or at least think while they play

 

[Henri]

Elite is quite complex, there is the security level of the system you are in, the ship you are flying, each component outfitted, engineer mods? your wanted level, missions you might have taken, bounty hunters after your bounty, local powers you may have upset, your powerplay faction and your relationship with local powers and then your piloting skills to consider when choosing what to do. It is really awesome but maybe too nuanced as some people don't make the connection between their actions and the reaction from the universe.

I think it is well known that I am not a 'white knight' but what Frontier is doing here is stellar and does WOW! me.