'Attack of the AI' III

[Mohrgan]

COMPLETE THE LOOK!

"wow, you look like a psycho!"

COMPLETE THE LOOK!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlsPthMsOt4

Ok, I'm going to have to admit this. I don;t know what that means. But, I can live with that.

 

[relayer]

I experienced the NPC ramming tactics too. I used to do that on NPCs because it is very effective in downing the enemy shields before they can try heal them.

I'm talking about at stations! The "we need to scan you" ships that crashed into you even if you were flying at "station speed levels" or even stopped (which I started to do so the danged things couldn't fine me). They used to plague the stations. Now... not a scan at all (which makes for handily smuggling in illegal cargos)

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Ok, I'm going to have to admit this. I don;t know what that means. But, I can live with that.

Ah, OK - in the Grand Theft Auto games, the cars play different radio stations. They have commercials inbetween songs, and the "Complete The Look!" series is among the funniest.

"Black leather jacket; torn bluejeans, bandanna... Complete The Look!"
[woman's voice, admiring] Wow, you look like a [ psycho, Satanist, Golddigger, etc]!"
COMPLETE THE LOOK!

Seriously, if you've never heard these commercials, you owe it to yourself to have a listen; they are hilarious, and some of the best ingame sound work ever done. Try this:

44 Vice City commercials: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iflwZTNcb4E

 

[capt_sparks]

I'm talking about at stations! The "we need to scan you" ships that crashed into you even if you were flying at "station speed levels" or even stopped (which I started to do so the danged things couldn't fine me). They used to plague the stations. Now... not a scan at all (which makes for handily smuggling in illegal cargos)

That's a bug worthy of reporting. Never experienced NPCs ramming on stations though. Instead, I'm the one ramming them from time to time because I boost in and out of stations, and I don't mind paying for the paltry fine.

 

[Sunleader]

The cheapest build runs at ~7 million CR. That can be earned in a few hours of running missions in a sidewinder.

The weapons on these builds are 100% optional. In fact, I don't even mount them 90% of the time. Feel free to remove them completely. HRPs are also an extremely cheap alternative until you can afford bulkheads.

For some reason you seem to be under the illusion that you need a fully kitted combat python to deliver 8 T of cargo safely. Frankly this is not a realistic appraisal of the level of danger in the game. If you want to keep believing you need to be a combat god to survive as a trader, go ahead. No one is stopping you. My advice is for people that are looking for realistic solutions to realistic problems.

I think you Forgot just how Much Money 7 Million Is when your Starting out in a Sidewinder.
Make it in a Few Hours ?
How if your Sidewinder is Killed every few Runs and Losing Credits instead of Producing them ?


And oh its not ?
Well Mate.
I am sure Glad I was in my Python.

If I had been in a Cobra or God Save me a Type 9 I would have been Toast.





Guys once more a Simple Fact.
If NPCs are Challenging for you in a Fully Kitted Combat Ship.
Then Sorry.
But simply Imagine how much of an Chance an T7 Transport has of Fighting You. And You have the current Average Survival Chance of Players not Flying a Fully Combat Outrfitted Ship.

 

[Zandil]

each time I get basically insta killed it is warning me of a Thermal attack incoming and then a couple secs later my ship is in bits. Haven't come across thermal attack warning before, is this part of the engineered weapons NPC's are supposed to not have now ?

 

[E4GLEyE]

Thermal attack is from Plasma Accels they are basic and bring heat to the table without mods. Regarding the AI in general i hope they dont nerf them in piloting skills, its just too much fun to actually dogfight small ships, never before did i learn to fly with FA off, now as i had to adapt to fighting eagles, vipers and such... so turns out the mighty FA off is actually not impossible, and its actually fun to drift around

 

[Miklos Atreides]

The AI is if baselined to rank about right. What makes it odd is the level of aggression it is acting now and the ranks you hit
most of the time. Means interdictions are too often and ranklevels are too often too high above yours so engaging the fight is not possible
the only feasable option is to run (and pray for survival). But piloting behavior of an Expert NPC is now Expert like.

Making a different suggestion to FD to give players a chance to overcome the improved AI
Create a Training Scenario box (like basic training) as solo mode and give it a combat simulation
Select your ship, fit it out select your opponent(s) ship(s) and rank(s) and you are ready for
simulation withour risking ship and cargo but able to devlop skills and see the progress you make.

Because there is no different behaviour no modifications to flight model and surroundings are needed.
More or less the simulation can happen in a 1 planet (maybe with rings) box and a station somewhere.
This way programming extra effort is minimal and mostly pre flight.

I would tend to use it for an evening or two to get used to some levels of counterparts.

Regards,
Miklos

 

[sensai25]

There is way too much high end powered NPC.

 

[Cmdr Black]

Honestly the new AI isn't that difficult. It's just annoying and cheesy, and the old AI (minus the suicide rolling in place) wasn't very different. They just aren't pleasant to fight and they are very predictable in that all they do is try to get on your 6 o clock. If new cheesy NPCs able to do things that player pilots can't do (like turn Type 7s on a dime) are going to stay, that's quite alright, but increase the payouts across the board. If we have to spend way more time killing individual NPCs because they have been so absurdly buffed, we should get paid more credits.

 

[Ziljan]

Create a Training Scenario box (like basic training) as solo mode and give it a combat simulation
Select your ship, fit it out select your opponent(s) ship(s) and rank(s) and you are ready for
simulation withour risking ship and cargo but able to devlop skills and see the progress you make.

This is a wonderful idea! Then people could actually see what does what, in a sandbox type simulator!

Guys once more a Simple Fact.
If NPCs are Challenging for you in a Fully Kitted Combat Ship.
Then Sorry.
But simply Imagine how much of an Chance an T7 Transport has of Fighting You. And You have the current Average Survival Chance of Players not Flying a Fully Combat Outrfitted Ship.

There is a T7 sized hole in your logic.

Hint: The FSD cooldown for a trader to submit and jump away = 10 seconds. Average combat lasts between 1-3 minutes. Total Damage = DPS x Time. Hmm... what can we learn from combining these facts??

 

[Cmdr Black]

Also it's hilarious how if you try to carry any cargo there's a fairly decent (over 40%) chance an Elite Anaconda will spawn to try to rob you and will continue to do so until you either kill it or leave the system.

 

[matemaster]

Also it's hilarious how if you try to carry any cargo there's a fairly decent (over 40%) chance an Elite Anaconda will spawn to try to rob you and will continue to do so until you either kill it or leave the system.

Those Elite anaconda's are after me even if I have nothing in cargo

 

[relayer]

Also it's hilarious how if you try to carry any cargo there's a fairly decent (over 40%) chance an Elite Anaconda will spawn to try to rob you and will continue to do so until you either kill it or leave the system.

Yep, and for your "big haul" of 4t neofabric or whatever mission reward commodities... if we want more "realism," I'd expect at least a crude filter when NPCs scan you, maybe tied to credits/value; an NPC might decide 4t of scrap metal or a few weird Engineer commodities aren't worth the effort of getting "his" ship lost. On the other hand, a cargo hold stuffed with narcotics, Imp slaves or gold would be a magnet for them (as they should be!)

A good chunk of players are experiencing something/s that another large group of players is not. FD found the weapon bug (and it was a mighty strange bug) in three days. They took that down, but there are still weird issues. Enough players are reporting them (and yes, backed with videos) that we need to understand why; what are the differences in "never see 'em" to "every frickin' jump" ? Loadouts? Combat ranks? Assets/worth? Million-miles traveled?

I think we're dealing with several phenomena tangled together. I can deal with NPCs when they aren't overpowered. Even with the redacted Engineer weapons, there's ingame physics rulesets being broken: the commonly-mentioned Anacondas teleporting and turning on a dime, barrage-firing with no heat buildup, chain interdictions while carrying no cargo/missions/PowerPlay status, etc.

So, No on lobotomize the new AI and Yes on squash-that-bug.

 

[FiddenUK]

I have mixed feelings on the new AI.

The good: it's nice to see the NPCs flying more intelligently now and not meandering in front of me waiting to be killed. Prior to 2.1, the only ships I really feared when in RES site were the FAS, FDS, and FGS. That is because all of the Fed ships had the crazy "kill, kill, kill!" programing that probably came from spending too much time around Zachary Hudson. They would almost always turn flight assist off and keep their nose on you no matter what you did; you just had to kill them before they killed you. Sometimes you could get behind them and stay there, but if they could outmaneuver you, they kept their nose on you and the weapons fire on! They also liked to ram a lot too (regardless of your size).

The bad: Every NPC seems to have 1 or 2 chaff launchers and love to spam it. They time the use of it perfectly so that when they come around on their attack run - which is usually the only time you can line them up to shoot them - all your gimbals go crazy because they've popped chaff. Intelligent: yes. Fun: not so much. They really do fight a lot more like players now. While that challenge can be fun in small doses, if I (and others) wanted to live in that adrenaline fueled world, we just play open and go PvP.

The Ugly: The absolutely insane - and dare I say, sometime moronic - spawns of killer ships when you are just traveling. I give you the following incidents:
1. Last Friday morning (6/3), returning to Bubble in an A-rated AspX after doing three days of exploring ~600 ly out from Deciat (Felicty Farseer). I took the economical route back, so as to explore more systems for data to give Felicity. When I was down to 30 little jumps to go (out of the original 77), I must've crossed back into the bubble (earlier than I expected). The only cargo I had was 2 escape pods and 4 tons of personal weapons I found while surface mining way out (crashed ship, wasn't even in a POI). Apparently that was all that was needed to prime the "Gank spawn routine". As I'm scanning the sun, I notice a blue dot appear. I instantly realized I'm now in the Bubble, abandon the scan, and immediately start a jump. Too later, interdicted. It's an FAS who is after me because of the "Big haul" he heard I was carrying. Seriously? How the hell would he know? Anyway, I submit and then run. He still manages to blow down my shields and take my hull down to 60% before I jump away. After that, I do max jumps the rest of the way back and Detail scan NOTHING. Run, run, run!!!! Good thing too, since I had enough data to kick her up from L1 to L4 mods.

2. While flying around to get commodities for necessary engineering mods (Saturday morning 6/4), I take my Clipper to Stafkarl. When I get to starport, I find out that it doesn't carry the part. Perhaps the little outpost does. So, since the Clipper can dock there, I buy a sidewinder, A-rate it, and go to the outpost. They do have the part, I buy 1 ton of it, and start the flight back to the port with the clipper. 5 ls from docking, I scan an USS that has Encoded data. Intrigued, I jump down and inspect the wreckage. I was in there for at least a minute poking around (these are new to me). I scanned the data recorder and was about to start manually scooping the parts when a blue dot appears on the radar. It's an FDL. I'm not sure if he said anything about a big haul or not, but he instantly attacked me. I was dead in under 15 seconds, as he apparently took out my FSD in his initial volley. Fortunately, this wasn't a costly loss, and I was not attacked when I rebought the sidewinder and flew back with the part to the clipper a second time.

3. While cruising around in my clipper with 9 tons of the commodities needed to Engineering upgrades (Saturday evening 6/4), I was threatened on 30% to 50% of my jumps by idiots after my "big haul". Over 80% were Dangerous or higher rated FDLs (I'm currently Dangerous), 1 Python, and one Viper Mk IV. I ran, or broke, the interdiction on all but the Viper. I purposely submitted to that one and took out all my frustration on him.

So in conclusion, the new, harder AI is fine in small doses OR when you go in asking for trouble (assassination missions; to a lesser extent RES sites and Combat Zones), but frustrating to terrifying when just trying to fly around and get minor tasks done.

Also, does it need to make everything in your RES instance reflect your Combat level? It's bad enough having to fight 90% of the opponents being your rank or higher (remaining 10%, one rank lower), but the friendly NPCs too? Just how many "Elite" combat rated pilots out there have decided to retire to a life of mining... in ships that can't defend themselves... with no escort. That really breaks immersion.

Suggestions:

1. Stop having hunters spawn for your "big haul" unless your carrying a big haul. 9 tons worth a total of less than 4500 credits?! Really? While you ignore my Imperial Cutter's repeated trips of 720 tons of Imp. Slaves one way and high priced metals the other? If we're going to have desperate attackers, at least put them back in their laughably (as in 2.0) desperate ships, like Cobra Mk 3, Viper Mk 3, or Sidewinder - often without shields. The big guns shouldn't be wasting their time (unless they're psychotic). I state this from both a "fun to play" and a "don't break the immersion" stance.

2. Spawn more of a variety in the RES sites. Or, if they're all going to be around my combat level, stop with the chaff spamming. That's almost as frustrating as the constant running I saw them do in beta (shields down, run!!!; shields back up, attack!!! - repeat ad infinitum).

In conclusion, I don't want to see the "challenging" AI taken away from players who love it. I'd just like to see it moved (at least 90%) to where the challenge is where you expect it. This way, the players who aren't so good at combat, are getting creamed and losing money while trying to play the game their way. When that FDL killed my sidewinder (mentioned above) out of the blue while I was "exploring wreckage" I was angry as hell; it felt liked being ganked by a PC griefer. To make matters worse, if that had been an actual player after me for those components, I could've at least worked out a deal by telling him where to buy them and/or getting some for him. I can't negotiate with a FDL piloted by Skynet.

For reference - I fly an A rated AspX, A rated Clipper, A rated Python for missions (which I do in terror because it can't outrun out maneuver the psycho NPCs), and either an A-rated Vulture or A-rated Federal Corvette for RES site bounty hunting.

P.S. While we're talking about psycho-killer AI, could we possibly modify the bounty/fine system so that you don't get a 400 credit bounty/death warrant by shooting a known (but not yet verified by scan) wanted vessel, and then having every Security ship gun for you like your public enemy #1?! This issue pre-dates 2.1, but is much worse now with the improved AI. I'm fine with the "I broke the law" bit by shooting him (2nd in a wing) before scan verification. I'm not fine with 6 security force ships trying to destroy me for it. Seriously? Your going to cost me a multi-million rebuy + lost bounties over a 400 credit assault charge/bounty? That is why I stick to HAZ RES sites... security forces are more of a threat than a help.

It is the inconsistent approach to 'random' that I find the most frustrating, and is described well as above.

 

[howardtay]

Has any player seen any information from any of the Frontier developers saying that they are aware of these further bugs and player concerns and that they are looking into them and attempting to solve them in a future patch? I can't seem to find anything on the internet, their Elite Dangerous Latest News feed doesn't contain anything and their dev update is dated 03/03/2016, or am I looking in the wrong places?

Elite Dangeorus seems to be working o.k for me at the moment, it's difficult sometimes but just about managaeble unless I accidently take a mission above my rank (Expert) and then all hell breaks loose.

 

[Ziljan]

Those Elite anaconda's are after me even if I have nothing in cargo

Have to wonder why we are having such vastly different experiences. I cannot find any Elites who are not cops in high security systems.

Just an endless parade of low rank weaklings. I am Dangerous rank too.

 

[sicksuntzu]

Ai is fine, its the fact that i have to carry around engineer crap in my hold and then spend most of my time fighting interdictions thats getting on my nerves, for god sake gief some storage just for engineer comodities, so i can get back to playing my game and having fun.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

When I carry some cargo I too get some ships coming after me here and there that are almost always Elite ranked, which is good since I'm deadly ranked. But without carrying cargo and not doing any missions I never see a NPC attacking me.

 

[HBK]

Interdictions were broken pretty much from day one. They may have been broken in varying ways over the course of the patches but this is nothing new. Obviously when you're caught by a Conda now you're pretty much dead meat if you don't fly a combat build so I understand the frustration but interdictions were always broken and this patch has nothing to do with it. It's just that before you could kill that meddling Conda in an Asp.

 

[Ziljan]

When I carry some cargo I too get some ships coming after me here and there that are almost always Elite ranked, which is good since I'm deadly ranked. But without carrying cargo and not doing any missions I never see a NPC attacking me.

Good to know! Thanks Bomba!!