RV Sonnenkreis - Decoding Universal Cartographics

[Jackie Silver]

I wonder if the radius of the sphere is a deciding factor in the priority?

That sounds quite likely. What puzzles me most is why the centres of the sectors are often so far away from the object that gives them their name.

(You'd certainly want a smaller sector overlapping a larger sector if it was completely within it - we'd need to look at small sectors on the edges of larger ones to be sure.)

 

[Bravada Cadelanne]

Mel 111 sector has a radius of about 110ly.
Col 395 Sector has a radius of about 570ly.

Most of the custom sectors have their naming object near the centre of the sphere (even if there is a higher-priority sector masking the sector, as in e.g. the Ophiuchus Dark Region C Sector (which isn't searchable in the galaxy map)
e.g.

• Antliae Sector: Iota Antliae
• Arietis Sector: 39 Arietis
• Blue Flash Sector: Blue Flash Nebula, CSI+19-20201
• Blue Planetary Sector: Blue Planetary Nebula, GCRV 715
• Bow-Tie Sector: Bow-Tie Nebula, NGC 40 Star
• Bug Sector: Bug Nebula, CD-36 11341
• Capricorni Sector: B Capricorni
• Cephei Sector: 16 Cephei
• Ceti Sector: 47 Ceti

If it weren't masked by the other sectors around it, the Ophiuchus Dark Region C Sector would be 110ly radius centred on Ophiuchus Dark Region C. Because it's masked by the Pipe (Bowl) Sector below to the south-east, the Snake Sector to the north, and the Ophiuchus Dark Region B Sector above it, there are only a few stars in it near (-105,75,510), close to 110ly from Ophiuchus Dark Region C.

Edit:
Also, what I call the origin is where SectorName AA-A a0 would be if it existed.

 

[Jackie Silver]

Ah, gotcha, me being silly and not putting two and two together! . MattG, sorry, I forgot to guess at Sol's name yet.

(edited to add)

I think I got a little further along with my understanding of how the infixes work earlier (looking at points within a sequence where it goes from a 3 phoneme word to a 4 phoneme word, like KYLOALZ -> KYLOADUE is interesting) but it's Friday night and whisky calls.
The distribution of 3 phoneme words appears to be clustered on the lower half of the map, and the exceptions are those prefixes which have short lengths - which suggests to me that each prefix has an associated counter which gives the infixes and suffix, and that the prefixes with short lengths don't increase that counter very fast because their sequences are short, and so the names don't get the chance to increase from 3 phonemes (loosely equivalent to single digit numbers) to 4 phonemes (loosely equivalent to double digit numbers.) That prefixes of similar lengths usually have synchronised names and progressions across their runs when they're on the same level is further evidence for this.

Having spent a while ferrying construction materials for the new Alliance outpost yesterday in my armoured space-tank Corporate 'Rock', I'm flitting about the Bubble picking up illegal booze in a smuggling Cobra. I've been attacked, threatened and generally bothered a dozen times in the last week, it's getting annoying... ^^

 

[Esvandiary]

looking at points within a sequence where it goes from a 3 phoneme word to a 4 phoneme word, like KYLOALZ -> KYLOADUE is interesting

The distribution of 3 phoneme words appears to be clustered on the lower half of the map, and the exceptions are those prefixes which have short lengths - which suggests to me that each prefix has an associated counter which gives the infixes and suffix, and that the prefixes with short lengths don't increase that counter very fast because their sequences are short, and so the names don't get the chance to increase from 3 phonemes (loosely equivalent to single digit numbers) to 4 phonemes (loosely equivalent to double digit numbers.) That prefixes of similar lengths usually have synchronised names and progressions across their runs when they're on the same level is further evidence for this.

So I think I've worked out why it (normally) goes from ...PHS --> ...DUE

The counter remains the same between the 3 phoneme and 4 phoneme names.
So it counts up from 0 (e.g. FROAB) to the end of that suffix list, which is index 150 (FROAPHS).
It then continues to 151, at which point it has to be a 4 phoneme name... At 151, it would have rolled over the 35-long suffix list four times, and be 12 suffixes into the fifth iteration. "d" is the fifth infix in its list, and "ue" is the 12th suffix in that list.

I'd also (mostly) come to the conclusion that each prefix has its own counter, I think I mused about that theory earlier. Everything you've said there matches what I'd noted, which is reassuring.
The challenge now is just working out the details... I had a go at running over the 3-phoneme names to finding the ones right at the bottom (Isheau, Keerbs, ...). So far I haven't quite managed to make it match up, but I'll have another look.
I'm wondering if there are some short infixes we have to deal with - at least in 4-phoneme names, "q" seems to visibly cause issues (e.g. Byeeqia --> Byoomoi, Theque --> ... --> Theemaa)

 

[Jackie Silver]

Excellent, good catch on the PHS --> DUE thing. And that we're thinking along the same lines! I'm hoping to get the chance to look at it better tomorrow, although I may be preoccupied this weekend.

 

[MattG]

Are you still working on the sector map (and it's subsequent decoding) ?

If not, ignore the rest of this post


Working on a small project of my own, and I've found these discrepancies between your own map and the one here (which is generated from EDSM data).

(BLUA FLYI,-4,34,-1) (BLUA FLYI,-4,33,-1)
(HYPUNIA,20,32,0) (HYPUNUA,20,32,0)
(PLEIA AOWSY,12,30,0) (PRIE AOWSY,12,30,0)
(HYPOEA GRIA,-13,28,-1) (HYPOEA GREAU,-13,28,-1)
(PHREAI BLUAE,12,27,-1) (PHREIA BLUAE,12,27,-1)
(BOERDY,-17,13,-1) (BOERST,-17,13,-1)
(BOERST,-16,13,-1) (BOEPPS,-16,13,-1)
(BYAE PHLAI,-15,11,0) (FROADIK,-15,11,0)

The first set is data from your map, the second is the other source. Entirely possible your data is fine, I'm not in a position to check at the moment. The maps agree on 2953 sectors, so that's good . (The above box plane co-ordinates use the other maps system, so WREGOE is (0,0,0) rather than (64,43,0) ).

 

[Jackie Silver]

I'm sorry I haven't updated this post to reflect progress for a while, MattG.

Alot and I have successfully understood the whole of the sector naming code (at least insofar as it relates to position); we can generate the whole set of sectors that cover the galaxy. I don't have the links to hand (lunchbreak) but will post them later.

I'm looking at the distribution of mass across the galactic disc (as given by the highest mass code system within a sector) at the moment. Among other things, got a short little span of attention...

 

[MattG]

Oooh, very nice indeed, look forward to the update!

 

[Jackie Silver]

Here's a link to a full set of sector names for the -3,-2,-1,0,1, and 2 planes of the galaxy. Sol and Sadge on plane 0, which is the first sheet.

Link

You'll see the zero plane has some colouring-in; that's me trying to find the mass distribution across the galaxy, there's a key to it in the upper right on that plane.

There are two sets of coordinates given, one starting with Sadge =(0,0) and one starting with Sol =(0,0). You can find approximate coordinates by multiplying the Sol numbers by 1280.

I haven't looked at the distributions in the other planes yet, it's a tedious business as I'm searching manually.

Some of the grey sectors definitely contain stars, but don't return a hit if you put the sector name into the galmap search box. I'm guessing their highest mass-code systems are D and under.

Links to the source code (use the pgnames branch) and Alot's online system / sector name finding tool.

 

[Pirin]

Hi Jackie

This is the screen for Nyuenooe AA-A H120 you requested. What are the stats you find unusual? It is B II class - which is quite rare.

Spoiler

In addition, one more hot landable HMC - in case you still need it.

Spoiler

I think this weekend i will be able to complete the file file with my new big stars data i promised.

 

[Jackie Silver]

Thanks Pirin! Think I made a transcription error with the temperature of that star - I've been trying out a "guess the spectral class of the star from its vital statistics" program and the temperature of that one was too high, but it makes sense now. Hehe, one of five errors that the program turned up, must have been pretty good guessing because all the others were wrong too when I checked them.

Think we're ok for landable HMCs now, that particular theory is truly laid to rest, thanks though.

Look forward to new data!

 

[Vitamin Arrr]

Here's a link to a full set of sector names for the -3,-2,-1,0,1, and 2 planes of the galaxy. Sol and Sadge on plane 0, which is the first sheet.

Link

You'll see the zero plane has some colouring-in; that's me trying to find the mass distribution across the galaxy, there's a key to it in the upper right on that plane.

There are two sets of coordinates given, one starting with Sadge =(0,0) and one starting with Sol =(0,0). You can find approximate coordinates by multiplying the Sol numbers by 1280.

I haven't looked at the distributions in the other planes yet, it's a tedious business as I'm searching manually.

Some of the grey sectors definitely contain stars, but don't return a hit if you put the sector name into the galmap search box. I'm guessing their highest mass-code systems are D and under.

Links to the source code (use the pgnames branch) and Alot's online system / sector name finding tool.

Holy crap this is g awesome! I honestly can't believe you guys pulled this off. Well, I can believe it, but still, I'm dumbfounded. I looked at that data for awhile and could not make heads or tails of it, so... bravissimo! Over 9000 rep if I could!

I'll try to work this source or the API into that iOS app I was working on, so far it's pretty handy in terms of having a very quick and easy habitable zone calculator where you just use thumb sliders that work on a logarithmic scale so you can fly with one hand and find the HZ with the other without typing any numbers into anything. Now this prog-name mapper is the exact thing I was hoping for to make it into a true plotter thing. For those of us XBOX commanders who don't have a full PC at our disposal whilst playing, and who can't just alt-tab. (And who can't be arsenic'd to use the laptop that's right there.)

I'd have checked in more frequently about things but work has been crazy. I'm still amazed at this.

Now what we need is a database of all the hand-placed sectors, and their center-points and radii, to serve as the backbone of a lookup for those coordinates too. I've been mapping out the ones in the southern galaxy like M36, M37, M38, several NGC's, Monkey Head, etc. As I mentioned in prior posts I had been studying the way in which the sectors are offset for these spheres. What I have concluded is that the origin points of the grids of A, B, C, D, E, and F stars are different for each class in these spheres. In other words, the sphere for M38 is actually 7 different spheres: the sphere for A, the sphere for B, the sphere for C, the sphere for D, etc. Each of these will not be exactly lined up with where you'd expect it to be for the other ones. It drove me crazy for awhile but once I realized what was happening, I grew to be at peace with myself once again. (Or, it could just be that I am crazy, and was hallucinating due to space madness, but I did use graph paper, so I'm pretty sure I wasn't wrong.) But the point is that it will introduce a margin of error, and it will also possibly explain the answer to your question of why it seems sometimes the "key" thing of the sphere (the chief landmark) is nowhere near its center. Because there is not one center... and also because I think they just did things arbitrary-style at times.


EDIT: LOL. Nevermind. You already did it...! All the handplaced sectors...! Holllly crap.

 

[Pirin]

Jackie, here is my new big star data: link

I wonder how you make any sense of WR stars? Their temperatures seem pretty much random to me

 

[CMDR EfilOne]

Now what we need is a database of all the hand-placed sectors

To add upon that, I started to collect all the star catalogues I could find that are implemented in Elite's Milky Way (some may be still missing), can be found here :

https://www.dropbox.com/s/m8c7xei56x5kytj/StarCats.xlsx?dl=0

Looking on this to convert the RA/Dec coordinates to [x,y,z] and galactocentric systems : http://python4astronomers.github.io/astropy/coordinates.html

If it's of any help .. o7

 

[Jackie Silver]

Jackie, here is my new big star data: link

I wonder how you make any sense of WR stars? Their temperatures seem pretty much random to me

Thanks Pirin, that should be very useful. I'm not making any sense of WR stars at the moment. I can't yet see any correlation between their mass, radius, temperature or luminosity and the subtype of WR star that results - at the very least WO ought to be hotter than the others.

 

[jimbeau1571]

Are you still working on the sector map (and it's subsequent decoding) ?

If not, ignore the rest of this post


Working on a small project of my own, and I've found these discrepancies between your own map and the one here (which is generated from EDSM data).

(BLUA FLYI,-4,34,-1) (BLUA FLYI,-4,33,-1)
(HYPUNIA,20,32,0) (HYPUNUA,20,32,0)
(PLEIA AOWSY,12,30,0) (PRIE AOWSY,12,30,0)
(HYPOEA GRIA,-13,28,-1) (HYPOEA GREAU,-13,28,-1)
(PHREAI BLUAE,12,27,-1) (PHREIA BLUAE,12,27,-1)
(BOERDY,-17,13,-1) (BOERST,-17,13,-1)
(BOERST,-16,13,-1) (BOEPPS,-16,13,-1)
(BYAE PHLAI,-15,11,0) (FROADIK,-15,11,0)

The first set is data from your map, the second is the other source. Entirely possible your data is fine, I'm not in a position to check at the moment. The maps agree on 2953 sectors, so that's good . (The above box plane co-ordinates use the other maps system, so WREGOE is (0,0,0) rather than (64,43,0) ).

That map would appear to be somewhat incorrect from my travels to the area concerned with the Borderlands Venture Expedition. I'm finding that a huge swathe of sector names are not the same as this map, from as near to the Sol sector as Fojee and Byooe Thoi and then beyond to the New Outer Arm and up towards the Tosia area.

Unless I am hugely mistaken and have missed something.

 

[Jackie Silver]

Did you take account of distance above and below the galactic plane? The first sheet of the map is for the zero plane, which is just above the galactic plane, and the second sheet is for the -1 plane, just below it. If you're flying around the plane of the galaxy you'll run into both sets.

 

[jimbeau1571]

Did you take account of distance above and below the galactic plane? The first sheet of the map is for the zero plane, which is just above the galactic plane, and the second sheet is for the -1 plane, just below it. If you're flying around the plane of the galaxy you'll run into both sets.

Using my Flight logs, EDTS and the Sector map as a comparison, here is some findings:

SectorEDSM/EDTS

 

[jimbeau1571]

Did you take account of distance above and below the galactic plane? The first sheet of the map is for the zero plane, which is just above the galactic plane, and the second sheet is for the -1 plane, just below it. If you're flying around the plane of the galaxy you'll run into both sets.

Using my Flight logs, EDTS and the Sector map as comparisons, here is some findings:

Sector EDSM(x,y,z) EDTS Sector Map Resultant (EDSM and EDTS compared to Sector map results)
Sifi AF-D d27-1 -1863,226,808 x-1855 y225 z805 -2,1 Same
Sifoae BQ-P d5-11 -6044,107,773 x-6025 y95 z735 -5,1 X differ by -1K
Byoo Thoi IX-S c4-1 -11333,361,3003 x-11325 y361 z3003 -9,3 X differ by -2k
Byooe Thoi YV-B c14-1 -14844,474,3388 x-14845 y475 z3395 -12,3 X differ by -2k
Fojee NE-B c16-0 -15691,1087,3460 x-15685 y1075 z3475 -13,3 X differ by -2K
Phua Freau ND-I c10-2 -31621,296,26256 x-31605 y315 z26275 -25,21 X differ by -6K, Y differ by 5k

I understand there is some overlap, and so you can probably disregard the Sifi and Sifoae results. But those following show the difference progressively gets worse with distance from the bubble. The huge gap between Fojee and Phua Freau examples is due to nothing being on the sector map I could compare with against my flight logs.


(excuse the table or lack of above, works computer is rubbish), but it is xyz corords for EDSM then EDTS then xz for Sector map

 

[Jackie Silver]

Thanks for the detailed information, I'll look into it.

...hang on a moment, I'm confused, are you using the updated, program-generated, complete Google Docs version (this link) or one of the older ones? Ignore any of the older incomplete hand-authored maps now.

The Google Docs one doesn't have absolute coordinates on it at the moment, but I'll add them when I get some time. It's easy enough to work out from the relative sector positions though.