Elite Dangerous is not a sandbox

Bob_H · May 22, 2014

To the OP: you do realise Elite (the original 1984 Elite) is widely regarded as the game that started the sand box genre don't you? EVE pretty much owes it's existance to Elite.

Thorn Black · May 22, 2014

Tobytyke1972 said:
thats just stupid Jorlin everybody knows it pool and darts that you play in a pub.

And drink a rum not a beer like those rats pfff ...

J.T.Kirk · May 22, 2014

The definitions of sandbox/open-world/RPG are very blurred. Elite is a true open-world game, in the way no other game is.

jabokai · May 22, 2014

List of games on Steam under the sandbox category - http://store.steampowered.com/tag/en/Sandbox/ - it really does depend on the definition. Obviously Sisyphus chooses a narrower definition to suit what they personally want to see in the game.

Maxeren · May 22, 2014

Sisyphus said:
I disagree with that definition because then even Guild Wars 2 will be a "sandbox" game... or any and every single MMO with a roamable map. That's just an mmo being an mmo.

Take Grand Theft Auto, for example - I can see how some may call even that a sandbox (because you can walk in any direction and don't have to follow the story line in a linear way), but if we don't have meaningful choices that affect the meta-game, then I don't see how it can be called a true sandbox.

So by your definition any game that doesnt follow a linear path can be a sandbox game as long as choices made influence the game?

Thats even more vague than any other arguments here...

grae3107 · May 22, 2014

My daughter has a sand box 4x3 filled with sand. She can't mine, build, trade the sand for sweets, research new colours of sand or make her own sand. Does this mean it is not a sand box?

the-monk · May 22, 2014

Sisyphus said:
In EVE, (a non-minecraft type game), you can truly do anything. If that is a sandbox, (and it is), then you cannot put this game in the same category - what do they have in common to justify calling them both sandbox games?

You can't land on planets or walk around your ship. These are just some features planned for ED

Jorlin · May 22, 2014

Thorn Black said:
And drink a rum not a beer like those rats pfff ...

Ehhh....Yarrr?

Andrew Sayers · May 22, 2014

Sisyphus said:
Right now the market value barely changes, even with a ton of money used to move product. I understand that this feature is supposed to become more "sandboxy" later on, but it isn't now.

As I understand it, most markets will need many players acting together to make a noticeable difference. Right now the alpha players are rattling around in a sandbox designed to accommodate the premium beta, so we might see more volatility next month.

Erimus Kamzel · May 22, 2014

J.T.Kirk said:
The definitions of sandbox/open-world/RPG are very blurred. Elite is a true open-world game, in the way no other game is.

+1

I think a new category needs to be invented. Besides, sandbox doesn't do ED justice.

Its more like a whole bloody beach!

Tobytyke1972 · May 22, 2014

The term Sandbox means a free roaming game world, without any direct defined play progression. Players set their own goals and game style/direction.

Elite is just one example of many variants of sandbox gaming.

And yes GTA is also a Sandbox game, it has at times been called Elite in a city.

You cam not define a type a game type by a few examples. A genre means that its a collections of similar games. Otherwise we would just have Elite-Type, Mario type games. etc.

Sisyphus · May 22, 2014

Bob_H said:
To the OP: you do realise Elite (the original 1984 Elite) is widely regarded as the game that started the sand box genre don't you? EVE pretty much owes it's existance to Elite.

No offence to the fanboys of the old game here. I know I'm treading on some toes here because you guys are going to be very defensive of your old love. And that's perfectly ok, but I can't let my rationality slip to accomodate anyone's feelings.

That is, I'm not familiar with the original game and I don't think I have to be, in order to recognize what a sandbox game is today.

Today it's about the meta-game that makes a game a sandbox game. We can argue about actual definition of a sandbox game, but what was historically once considered a sandbox game is not persuasive to me now - today I will compare a true sandbox game with whatever else is available and make my judgment based on that. I don't live by the 1980s definition today...

Adept · May 22, 2014

Sisyphus said:
<make Elite be EVE with cockpits!>
.

No.

As for the topic, a sandbox game doesn't mean it needs to be like EVE. This is not the true definition of the word, no matter how much you EVE-players like to claim it is.

Cody · May 22, 2014

<chortles merrily> What a curious thread - boulders come to mind.

kilvenny · May 22, 2014

Elite defined the genre in 1984 and this is Elite Dangerous, Elite 4 or Elite 2014. Sandbox, open world etc. Who cares - no need for labels. This is Elite! There was nothing like it in 1984 and there is nothing like it in 2014. No need to confine it to a supposed genre it stands unique.

CMDR Texas Stu · May 22, 2014

Sisyphus said:
Yes, Minecraft, Starbound, etc.. those are sandbox games. But sandbox doesn't exclusively mean constructing the environment around you, as you can do in those games. You can have a sandbox game where you have actual control over some part of the game mechanic. For example, you own a station, you have to manage it - pay for maintenance, set a tax rate, place bans on certain npcs or pcs, side with factions, create factories and supply a political force with ships, parts, ammo, etc. that is, you can significantly and meaningfully contribute to the meta-game. That is a true sandbox.

The problem with your definition of sandbox is that it is too vague and that it doesn't fit this current version of ED (alpha 4.03). That is, you say that a sandbox is something in which you can "do anything". First, "doing anything" doesn't mean anything! What exactly are you referring to when you say "do anything" ?? Clearly you can't craft... that's "something", isn't it? You can't fly capital ships... that's something too.

And even if that definition wasn't too vague, DOES ED let you "do anything" ? You can do 3 things: explore, fight or trade.

That's hardly "doing anything", is it?

In EVE, (a non-minecraft type game), you can truly do anything. If that is a sandbox, (and it is), then you cannot put this game in the same category - what do they have in common to justify calling them both sandbox games?

Sounds like EVE is exactly what YOU are looking for?
Have fun playing EVE.

Bob_H · May 22, 2014

Poor Sysiphus. There you are trying to bait us in to insulting you so you can run off and shout at people about how mean we are when all we do is politely disagree and discuss.

Vikinger · May 22, 2014

Well no one force you to play the game when its released. And it seams this game is nothing for you. Atm we are just in alpha stage so you really cant say what will happened and how player chooses will affect the economy.

And one thing I can agree whit you, its not a sandbox game, as this game have no boundaries. You can go to infinity in one direction and it will not be any known end like there is in a sandbox game.

It will not have any crafting (thank god for that) Nor will there be any dwarfs or elfs

This game is completely different from what il guess you are used to play and use as reference as il guess you are quite young.

For me ,that is old, this game is an extension of the old elite game that came for 30 years ago that was truly ground-breaking.
This is the game I've been waiting for so long and meanwhile I've been playing other games.
And whit my experience of gaming I cant really set a definition of this game as it is a definition it self. Elite is Elite.

Sisyphus · May 22, 2014

Tobytyke1972 said:
The term Sandbox means a free roaming game world, without any direct defined play progression. Players set their own goals and game style/direction.

Elite is just one example of many variants of sandbox gaming.

And yes GTA is also a Sandbox game, it has at times been called Elite in a city.

You cam not define a type a game type by a few examples. A genre means that its a collections of similar games. Otherwise we would just have Elite-Type, Mario type games. etc.

I agree that you cannot define game types too narrowly, but don't you think your definition is TOO BROAD? For example, your key difference between sandbox and not sandbox is "free roaming" with no pre-defined player objective.

How many games does that cover? Is Battle Field 4 also a sandbox game, then? After all, you can roam around in any direction on a map, same as GTA 4, you have the choice of doing anything you like - be a pilot, be a tank driver, fire from a ship, use a drone, be a walking, hiding sniper, etc. It gives you many choices and doesn't give you a particular path that you MUST follow. This is the same as ED, except that in ED you can do TWO more things other than killing: explore and trade a little.

Thorn Black · May 22, 2014

Sisyphus said:
No offence to the fanboys of the old game here. I know I'm treading on some toes here because you guys are going to be very defensive of your old love. And that's perfectly ok, but I can't let my rationality slip to accomodate anyone's feelings.

That is, I'm not familiar with the original game and I don't think I have to be, in order to recognize what a sandbox game is today.

Today it's about the meta-game that makes a game a sandbox game. We can argue about actual definition of a sandbox game, but what was historically once considered a sandbox game is not persuasive to me now - today I will compare a true sandbox game with whatever else is available and make my judgment based on that. I don't live by the 1980s definition today...

Do You know what Elite is planning to release in addons ? now if thats not enough then i dont know, but i personally havent felt sandboxed when playing EVE. Idk i think it may be the immersion level, hard to say. Everyone has its own gusta. And nobody is talking here about how EVE was look like when they were starting.