General / Off-Topic Post Brexit: Petition for a new referendum

[Becks]

One way or another we will see what happens. Leaving the EU is not as simple as this vote. The process itself takes years and there are clauses and bylaws etc. They make it very hard to leave. Here's an interesting (and current) article on the topic:
https://theconversation.com/britain...u-cameron-quits-heres-what-happens-next-61420

After this vote, now the UK needs to make a formal declaration of intent to leave the EU. From there a number of actions are set in motion. It's convoluted and designed to stop any member country from exiting. I am still of the opinion that the "strength" of the EU is retaining the illusion that it's member states need it and once the spell is broken the "union" will be soon to follow. One shouldn't underestimate the hatred that austerity measures have garnered. Unless the EU with help from the states manages to squash this "uprising" inside the next two years (which it very well may do) then other nations may well follow suit.
Here's another interesting article:
http://time.com/4381428/brexit-eu-response/
On a side note, I reside in Australia.
Cheers

That's not quite true.

As soon as the UK submits article 50 they have two years to negotiate the leave conditions, if the deadline isn't prolonged with an unanimous vote, they're out after the two years. If they've finished negotiating by then doesn't matter. There is no turning back after the article was submitted, simply for the reason that a country can't blackmail the EU with threats to leave and then decides to stay as soon as it sees how the leave conditions will come out. So article 50 is not designed to stop members from leaving, as soon as you submit it, it is sure that they'll leave.

The EU has given the UK an ultimatum to submit article 50 until tuesday. I doubt that the UK will do this, but if they take too long its well possible that the EU members change the laws and simply eject the UK from the Union.

The biggest strength of the EU is the common market, which would undoubtly cease to exist if the union falls apart. If that should happen, you can expect the world economy to turn really really fast.
With the current economic turmoil in the UK and the relatively hard reactions from the EU (not their memberstates), no sane government would even consider to leave it.

Believe it or not, but the EU significantly improves the ability of european countries to trade in Europe. And freedom of movement is necessary for a common market like that.

For the austerity measures, it was mostly Germany who pushed them through after Greece fell into its debt crisis. But its the only way to do it. Of course the EU could pay Greece from its back pocket. But is it clever to do that, while you have several other member states with financial troubles?

After all we choose to stand by the side of Greece by not ejecting them from the EU like it was discussed. They got large amounts of money send to fix their , but of course the EU need to supervise the process of fixing Greece. Simply because they don't want the money to disappear into some greek politicians pocket again.

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The sales of ED and paint job should allow to maintain these forecasts

I hope so

Buy all the FDev stocks!

 

[Patrick_68000]

One way or another we will see what happens. Leaving the EU is not as simple as this vote. The process itself takes years and there are clauses and bylaws etc. They make it very hard to leave. Here's an interesting (and current) article on the topic:
https://theconversation.com/britain...u-cameron-quits-heres-what-happens-next-61420

After this vote, now the UK needs to make a formal declaration of intent to leave the EU. From there a number of actions are set in motion. It's convoluted and designed to stop any member country from exiting. I am still of the opinion that the "strength" of the EU is retaining the illusion that it's member states need it and once the spell is broken the "union" will be soon to follow. One shouldn't underestimate the hatred that austerity measures have garnered. Unless the EU with help from the states manages to squash this "uprising" inside the next two years (which it very well may do) then other nations may well follow suit.
Here's another interesting article:
http://time.com/4381428/brexit-eu-response/
On a side note, I reside in Australia.
Cheers

Indeed we are no longer in the Middle Ages or in some Muslim countries where the forced marriage is the rule

 

[Patrick_68000]

If one day the UK wants to return in the European Union after the real exit, here are the conditions :

Article 50 does envisage the possibility of UK re-entry to the EU one day – but subject to a unanimous vote of member states.This pretty much guarantees it will only ever happen by the UK accepting the euro currency, participation in the Schengen area of free movement and no rebate.

 

[Leper Messiah]

sadly I've seen many "remainers" state they'd like the elderly to be denied voting rights......LOL people who think themselves Liberals yet are actually the worst kind of fascists...they just don't know it.

 

[Becks]

sadly I've seen many "remainers" state they'd like the elderly to be denied voting rights......LOL people who think themselves Liberals yet are actually the worst kind of fascists...they just don't know it.

 

[Javert]

Yes it seems very undemocratic to want the change the rules after you lost, and then get a do over on the new rules.

If voter turn out was low, it is the fault of the platforms on both sides of the matter not instilling the sense of importance to the referendum.

If those who did not vote suddenly realise it was an important vote and they didn't like the outcome, what was their excuse for not voting in the first place?

If it is allow, what is stopping the losing side to have a petition to demand a do over again, and again?
Where is the line, what precedent will be set if this is allowed.

I agree and this is what I said yesterday. The result is what it is. The fact that a lot of the leave campaign slogans were completely untrue, was well pointed out many times by remain supporters throughout. Some voters choose to only get their information from a 60 second bulletin on commercial radio or from heavily biased newspapers which only put one side of the case, or from complete lies circulated on social media, but frankly, the government already knew that when they called the referendum. They messed it up and they lost.

Even the fact that the leave campaign had no written manifesto and no contract with their supporters other than 6 words "The UK should leave the EU" didn't seem to worry them, but again this was all pretty clear and pointed out if you actually bothered to watch the debates and the news.

BUT - if the circumstances on the ground change drastically from what they were before the referendum, or the referendum is on a different topic, then there could be another one. We already had a referendum 40 years ago on this, and it wasn't said that this one should not be allowed because we already made the decision 40 years ago, but no point re-running the same one in the same circumstances - only if the situation and facts change significantly.

It's kind of like the law courts to me - if significant new evidence is revealed, it may lead to an appeal or retrial.

As regards article 50, we are seeing a lot of strong talk from the EU this weekend. However, if they could already trigger article 50 based on the referendum result, they would have done so. It seems that for the moment, they have accepted that under Article 50 it is only the UK head of state who can formally trigger it.

Can they change the law to kick the UK out quicker as @Becks suggests? Legally perhaps not as this would require a treaty change which, strangely, the UK would currently still be able to veto. Can they work around it by saying that any formal discussion between UK government and EU whatsoever constitutes a de facto trigger of article 50 - I suspect that is what lawyers are arguing about right now as I type. One thing is sure, lawyers are going to get rich.

Edit: This may even be why Boris & Co are so silent this weekend - they may be concerned that whatever they say might be argued to be a triggering of article 50.

And by the way, the guy who made the video at liverpool university that we were watching - whoever it was yesterday that questioned whether his job is dependent on the EU, obviously didn't watch the whole thing - he made it very clear that leaving the EU will keep him and his colleagues busy for many years to come.

 

[MahdDogg]

Thats what you just did.
Long ago UK also Voted and Decided to Stay in the EU.
But that was instantly contested and now you got a Vote to Leave.

This is completely untrue. The only vote the UK made with regards to joining anything was the 1972 referendum to join the European Common Market. The EU didn't exist. That was not a vote for a European Superstate it was a vote to join a trading bloc. Please get your facts right if you want to make a valid argument.

 

[Patrick_68000]

One way or another we will see what happens. Leaving the EU is not as simple as this vote. The process itself takes years and there are clauses and bylaws etc. They make it very hard to leave. Here's an interesting (and current) article on the topic:
https://theconversation.com/britain...u-cameron-quits-heres-what-happens-next-61420

After this vote, now the UK needs to make a formal declaration of intent to leave the EU. From there a number of actions are set in motion. It's convoluted and designed to stop any member country from exiting. I am still of the opinion that the "strength" of the EU is retaining the illusion that it's member states need it and once the spell is broken the "union" will be soon to follow. One shouldn't underestimate the hatred that austerity measures have garnered. Unless the EU with help from the states manages to squash this "uprising" inside the next two years (which it very well may do) then other nations may well follow suit.
Here's another interesting article:
http://time.com/4381428/brexit-eu-response/
On a side note, I reside in Australia.
Cheers

The newspaper articles, of high quality in your post

 

[Leper Messiah]

http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/ajD04e8_700b_v1.jpg

I'm getting ready for the Liberals "Utopia" of a "Logans Run"-esque future.

 

[Javert]

Believe it or not, but the EU significantly improves the ability of european countries to trade in Europe. And freedom of movement is necessary for a common market like that.

Freedom of movement yes.

But should freedom of movement also contsitute freedom of residence?

During the campaign I accepted freedom of movement, residence etc as a worthwhile price of being in the EU because those are the rules and if we wan the benefits we have to follow the rules.

Now that the situation changed, I would like to be educated on why freedom of movement (which to the EU also means freedom or residence and free movement of workers, even to the extent of availability of unemployment benefits etc) is absolutely necessary for the EU to work?

I can see that freedom of movement in its literal sense is needed - obviously people need to move around to facilitate free trade. However should this go to the extent that I can go and live in Germany and get a job there with equal rights to a German citizen, even if I choose to move to a very overcrowded part of a German town?

I was a bit confused about this even in the campaign because David Cameron kept saying that it's not like that anyway, and we can ask people to leave if they are not working and can't find a job.

 

[Patrick_68000]

The political career of David Cameron is definitively ended ? He is going to disappear from the public scene ?

 

[Ian Phillips]

<snip>
I was a bit confused about this even in the campaign because David Cameron kept saying that it's not like that anyway, and we can ask people to leave if they are not working and can't find a job.

This cuts both ways. Am I going to be sent back to the UK if I lose my job in Holland?

 

[Leper Messiah]

The political career of David Cameron is definitively ended ? He is going to disappear from the public scene ?

I bloody well hope so, insufferable hypocrite claimed every penny he could for his disabled son despite being STINKING rich. Yet under HIS leadership I'm expected to accept cuts and live off 60 quid a week....he can go and do one.

 

[Javert]

This cuts both ways. Am I going to be sent back to the UK if I lose my job in Holland?

Well it was confusing but he claimed that with our special condition, you would have to be in the UK for at least 3 years before you could claim any unemployment benefit, and also, if you were here for a long time without a job you could be "asked to leave". I think this was only for the UK not all countries. Also, it wasn't clear whether the 3 year residence trumps the other one so if you were here with a job for over 3 years, you then can't be asked to leave if you lose the job 3 years late, but I suspect this was the case. It also isn't clear what "asked to leave" actually means.

Just to be clear though, in my view nobody who is already in place under the current laws should be asked to leave or move back to where they came from. Apparently though that is going to be one of the big things that keeps lawyers busy is figuring out what the status will be of all those people. They will almost certainly be alllowed to stay where they are, but how will that happen? Nobody knows yet.

So my question is not about what should happen to those who already are where they are. It's more a fundamental question where I'm trying to understand why absolute free movement of individual workers to live and work in any member state is a fundamental requirement in order for the EU to work properly.

 

[Javert]

I bloody well hope so, insufferable hypocrite claimed every penny he could for his disabled son despite being STINKING rich. Yet under HIS leadership I'm expected to accept cuts and live off 60 quid a week....he can go and do one.

Do you realise that with the current political landscape of the UK, the most likely outcome is that you will get a more right wing conservative government in place for many years to come, especially if Scotland leaves (not sure if you are in Scotland though?).

I agree that having to live on £60 a week is difficult, and I don't know anything about your personal situation, but do you expect that Boris, Mike, Nige and IDS are going to increase your benefits and/or wages? I hope I'm wrong, but I fear you may be waiting a while

 

[EdzUp]

Tbh if we go into the euro zone if there is another vote then we should go all in not half in like before as it was daft last time. We should also accept the Euro as this is one of the pivotal pillars of the EU and anything thrust on any member country will affect other's in the EU meaning more cooperation.

 

[Patrick_68000]

THE EU named, on Saturday, the Belgian diplomat Didier Seeuws at the head of "Brexit Task Force". The latter will negotiate the procedure of exit of the United Kingdom of the EU. The "Libre Belgique", described this diplomat as "fine intellectual machine"

 

[Leper Messiah]

Do you realise that with the current political landscape of the UK, the most likely outcome is that you will get a more right wing conservative government in place for many years to come, especially if Scotland leaves (not sure if you are in Scotland though?).

I agree that having to live on £60 a week is difficult, and I don't know anything about your personal situation, but do you expect that Boris, Mike, Nige and IDS are going to increase your benefits and/or wages? I hope I'm wrong, but I fear you may be waiting a while

Oh I quite agree, I'm a "sane" liberal...i.e. not a "loony" liberal and the one thing I feared over the "loonies" complete inability to be sane and reasonable about the immigration issues (which like it or not ARE real) has led to a rise in the right. The ONLY people I blame for this are the loony left.

Scotland ALREADY mucked things up with the shift from Labour to SNP, this crippled the Labour power base and has led to 2 successive terms of the Scu- I mean Tories.

Basically typified by the initially coalition the CONDEMS (Oh how APT!!) where the Liberals didn't do a thing about the abusive treatment of the sick and the disabled and did nothing to stop the crippling cuts, yet ring fenced International Aid.

 

[Zenith]

What I find interesting is the comments from those outside the UK.
Not to belittle their opinion, but there's a lot of subtle dynamics going on beyond a simple in/out of the EU. The Govt wanted to make this about Europe. The Electorate made it about Europe, British sovereignty, and a protest against the Govt.
What this referendum has done is highlight the chasm in outlook between the different regions. More specifically, the difference between London and most of the rest of the UK.

The result is what we've got. It is a classic case of "you can't please all of the people all of the time". That's how Democracy works folks! If I were to vote Labour and the Conservatives win the General Election, do I start whining about the injustice of it all and the Election should be run again? No. You take the result, and you get on with it.

The campaigns for Remain and Leave were both based on fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD). Most people saw straight through the FUD for what it was and cast their vote accordingly.
Personally I think the Leave vote is EXACTLY what the UK and the EU needed. There's been far too much complacency and taking the status quo for granted amongst politicians. It will take a crisis like this to shake those same politicians into some sort of action.
I hope it makes the other EU member states take a long hard look at themselves and the EU project and decide whether to make appropriate reforms or not.

 

[Becks]

Freedom of movement yes.

But should freedom of movement also contsitute freedom of residence?

During the campaign I accepted freedom of movement, residence etc as a worthwhile price of being in the EU because those are the rules and if we wan the benefits we have to follow the rules.

Now that the situation changed, I would like to be educated on why freedom of movement (which to the EU also means freedom or residence and free movement of workers, even to the extent of availability of unemployment benefits etc) is absolutely necessary for the EU to work?

I can see that freedom of movement in its literal sense is needed - obviously people need to move around to facilitate free trade. However should this go to the extent that I can go and live in Germany and get a job there with equal rights to a German citizen, even if I choose to move to a very overcrowded part of a German town?

I was a bit confused about this even in the campaign because David Cameron kept saying that it's not like that anyway, and we can ask people to leave if they are not working and can't find a job.

Without freedom of residence it would be impossible to move workforce between the deeper regions of the countries.

Here in Germany we have a whole lot of jobs which our citizens, even the poorer ones, wouldn't even consider to take up. Construction workers, cleaning staff, janitorial staff and so on. We fill these position with immigrants. Without them we would get a lot less done.

But not only fill we such (relatively) low skilled positions with immigrants, Germany has also an extreme lack of professionals in certain areas like kindergardeners, teachers, craftsmen and so on. All those positions are unfilled because they either can't fint apprentices or not enough of the youth study the fields required for jobs like teacher and kindergardener.

Of course it doesn't use much if you have a hungarian physics teacher or a kindergardener who can't say a single sentence in German. So immigrants willing to take up those jobs live here for years, doing unskilled jobs while learning the language until they're good enough to pass their tests.

My family had a housekeeper from Poland some years ago. That woman was a studied pediatrician who couldn't pass the tests because her German was still too bad.

If those people lose their jobs but are willing to work, then we should support them until they can find a new one, its in our own interest to get more skilled and unskilled workers to fill available working positions (imo).

As regards article 50, we are seeing a lot of strong talk from the EU this weekend. However, if they could already trigger article 50 based on the referendum result, they would have done so. It seems that for the moment, they have accepted that under Article 50 it is only the UK head of state who can formally trigger it.

Can they change the law to kick the UK out quicker as @Becks suggests? Legally perhaps not as this would require a treaty change which, strangely, the UK would currently still be able to veto. Can they work around it by saying that any formal discussion between UK government and EU whatsoever constitutes a de facto trigger of article 50 - I suspect that is what lawyers are arguing about right now as I type. One thing is sure, lawyers are going to get rich.

Edit: This may even be why Boris & Co are so silent this weekend - they may be concerned that whatever they say might be argued to be a triggering of article 50.

And by the way, the guy who made the video at liverpool university that we were watching - whoever it was yesterday that questioned whether his job is dependent on the EU, obviously didn't watch the whole thing - he made it very clear that leaving the EU will keep him and his colleagues busy for many years to come.

I recall @Adept saying something about a double majority rule regarding a veto in the other thread, I'm not totally sure on this though. That is, of course, if the EU allows the british MEPs to take part in that vote.

Schulz already said that Article 50 is checked very closely by EU lawyers for eventual loopholes. And lawyers can make a ton of convincing up when it suits them.


I personally would be glad if they allow the british citizens in the EU to stay here. It's not their fault that their country has made the decision it made.

A lot of brits in Germany have already applied for German citizenship afaik.