Minonian
Banned
Yep he is a dirty little weasel, with good camo.
General / Off-Topic The future of Politics here in the UK
- Thread starter Surfinjo
- Start date
Yep he is a dirty little weasel, with good camo.
To be fair I don't remember who it was that said it. It's just an example of the sort of things that don't really pass the smell test.
verminstar
Banned
Jesus wept...this is turning into a total witch hunt now and I set meself up for it because I was just being honest. And lets face it, this is just gonna go round and round with you lot picking holes in just about anything I say...won't even matter if I think yer wrong or not, cos yer gonna have some excuse or lie ready...backed up by all the other "experts" of course...wouldn't be a proper witch hunt without that.
So I'm gonna go walk the dogs while ye all pat yerselves on the back for job well done. Not walking away because I feel like I might change my mind...just can't be bothered arguing with what has become a full on mob of ye. I don't mind a good scrap but this is getting a bit silly now ^^
So I'm gonna go walk the dogs while ye all pat yerselves on the back for job well done. Not walking away because I feel like I might change my mind...just can't be bothered arguing with what has become a full on mob of ye. I don't mind a good scrap but this is getting a bit silly now ^^
That's the problem with your kind of people.
Every argument one brings up against your claims is labelled as EU propaganda, lies, excuses, faked statistics, brainwashing or whatever and therefore invalid.
And all that while you fail to provide a single source to back your claims. You really don't make it too hard to pick holes into your claims.
Last edited:
It's a bit of a strange feeling when the person calling his political rivals "remainiacs" and talking about bringing back public hangings starts to talk about being subjected to a witch hunt. If you don't believe in the justice system and hate human rights, how on Earth is it that your views are not allowed to be scrutinised? You make extraordinary claims here. The people supporting human rights and the rule of law are not the ones who form mobs in general. Just saying.
Caught in the act? What act?
I was simply pointing out the flaws in your rambling drivel.
As I have mentioned on several occasions I didn't vote leave - because I would prefer to avoid the chaos we have now and I couldn't bring myself to vote leave without really knowing what I was actually voting for - i.e. exit conditions.
I didn't vote stay either.
You just can't help resorting to insults can you? Just like you change your posts to reflect something said in a response to your posts that you couldn't think of before.
Remember the bit when you apologised last night - I nearly offered an olive branch on the strength of that - then you changed it back - screenshots are a wonderful thing.
Not sure why I'm asking you anything though because you have me on ignore - ah well.
Last edited:
Me too - I also wish they were less snarky.
I stayed out of this largely today till Minonian pulled me back in as part of a sideswipe at someone else.
Just have a look back through his posts - makes ludicrous predictions then pretends it was a metaphor when he gets called - then lobs in a few insults.
Still I'd like to request no-one quotes me because then he won't see it and I won't have to respond to more rubbish - obviously I don't have to - but I choose to.
Everyone's a winner!
That's ok. The problem is that your personal experience doesn't beat accumulated data. The plural of anecdote is not information.
This is a true personal story. My dad smoked. He smoked a lot. And every single time anyone in the family tried to get him to quit he came up with the same mantra - "my mum and my dad smoked every day of their life and it never did them any harm!" He had a heart attack at 55, then another at 59, then he needed angioplasty after his left big toe started to go black with gangrene, then a had a TIA, then he needed more angioplasty after his right big toe went completely bad (which then had to be amputated). Two years after that he suffered a stroke on his right side, which destroyed most of his language leaving him with severe dysphagia. He couldn't understand a word said to him, and nobody could make out what he was trying to say (his attempts to speak would be "Lemons betting without catfood in submarine skys!")
Actual cause of death 7 weeks after that? Peripheral vascular disease caused by smoking.
He didn't believe the experts, the doctors, or us because he truly believed (or maybe he just wanted to believe) that smoking couldn't do damage, based on the fact that his parents had made it through life without succumbing to smoking related illnesses. He couldn't imagine how that absurd little thing in his mouth could inflict catastrophic damage on his body.
You have had limited exposure to immigrants. Most of us have had limited exposure, except for those who work with them. And one bad experience can give you an impression that they're ALL like that. But that isn't a reasonable assumption, and indeed the claims that Muslims, Polish, or any other demographic are more likely to commit crimes or harm people than white westerners is false.
For the record, if you think my posts are condescending or attempting to belittle you I apologize profusely. I have absolutely no intention of offending you and I completely understand your desire to protect your daughter. I understand that if you're not too academic, or if you haven't had the benefit of a university education, smart people can come across as thinking they're above and beyond you, and somehow have more rights than you. And some smart people are that way inclined.
However, that is NOT what most of us are saying and it certainly isn't the way most of the experts in the remain camp carried themselves. What experts do, then and now, is advise you. If you were going to go camping on a snowy mountain you'd get advice first from someone who had done it, right? If your car is making a terrible racket you ask a mechanic about it. If you're going to take your country out of a massive trade conglomerate you ask someone who knows about such things. There is no difference.
verminstar
Banned
It was in relation to the fact there were so many of ye all asking question/dropping insults at the same time...one at a time please I don't do groups unless the moneys good. Yer perfectly free to scrutinize my opinions...so long as it's with a civil tongue which is more than some here can manage like becks who said it perfectly with "your kind of people"...sorta says it all really. Yerself, I could have a barney with because ye seem to genuinely wanna listen...few the mods too...rest aren't worth the paper they written on and only seem to wanna troll everyone. So by all means, I'll sit and have a proper debate...but this ain't a debate...it's a witch hunt where just one or two are interested in a civil debate.
"shrugs"...on the plus side, I see yer mute option works a treat on this game ^^
I promise you I'm genuinely trying to understand all sides, and I don't want to come across as condescending. I don't like snide comments being thrown around, even though I fully understands why it happens. It makes us feel better, and we are often amazed about "how can he/she actually believe that?" and so forth.
A little personal information. I'm a child of the eighties from Finland, a country that was so insular and white that you wouldn't believe it. Some of my country folk have struggled to accept anybody who isn't pale skinned and blue eyed. I don't miss the culture I saw in my childhood. The strange superiority complex towards "the rest of the world" even though we are just 5 million people at the Northern tip of Europe.
Anyway. As when I was a child my dad worked in Saudi Arabia as an engineer, and I lived there for a few years and went to an international school with British teachers. I also visited the place later when I was 15, and we vacationed in Jordania when I was 16. I've spent time on the Arabian peninsula and met the people. The Saudi government is rather nasty, and propped up by the church, but the people are just people. Same in Jordania. Some are nice, some not so. The stereotypes of Muslims spread in the scare stories are not worth anything in my experience and opinion.
Sure, we are further along when it comes to equality and human rights in society. I think one of the best things that can happen is having immigrants get used to the Western way of life and then taking the lessons learned back to their relatives and their home countries when they get homesick or go visit their relatives. What breeds problems and resentment is if they are treated with unfair suspicion and are assumed to be guilty of all sorts of things automatically.
There is nothing special about being white, or about being Christian. Christianity / Judaism / Islam are three flavours of the same story, and all three are ripping off Zoroastrianism. Religion is just stories our ancestors kept telling each other. Culture is what counts, and how we treat those who come to us in their time of need is the real test of ours.
If an immigrant or a refugee commits a crime, they will be punished to the full extent of the law, and often they will get deported at the end of their sentence. This is how things already work. Those fleeing war and terrorism at home shouldn't have to fear violent locals in the place where they find refuge.
I'll add one more thing. The British Empire used to span half the globe. The wealth of the British Isles has to a large degree been plundered from other nations and peoples. The modern UK is a civilized and tolerant place by and large, but surely after centuries of inviting yourselves to these people's homes they should now be welcome in Britain.
Javert
Volunteer Moderator
I think someone did actually listen because someone asked the question further up the page that it sounds like you have had a personal experience of this, and feel free to share the details if you are able.
You have also mentioned men in balaclavas knocking on the door late at night, and alluded to some kind of vigilante justice, and police who are corrupt in some way.
Please go ahead if you would like to share more details on this, and also I would be interested to see why you think this is due to the EU specifically.
Regarding the BBC, if you want to get rid of the BBC, I'm also interested to know if there is any source of news that you do trust?
"your kind of people" is a classification in the first place. It's not an insult nor was it meant as one.
I see more than just a few parallels between you and some of the german anti immigration people I've encountered in the past.
Fact is that neither your opinion nor your arguments are based on any kind of factual evidence or rationality. They're purely based on emotion.
That just means that I can't change your opinion with evidence or rationality since you already said yourself, that you wouldn't accept any argument/source/logical conclusion which would go against your beliefs.
Therefore you fall into the category of "that kind of people" and it's absolutely senseless to have a discussion with you.
Immigration into countries will always be a complicated matter because of "your kind of people".
Minonian
Banned
Becks? be fair, The immigration will be always a problem from the Near east. Nothing racist about this, but the fact about cultural distances, theirs and ours are somewhat far from each others, what causes a lot of friction, and stress.
"His kind of people" are the byproduct of this problems.
"His kind of people" are the byproduct of this problems.
Last edited:
I'm talking about immigration in general, not about the immigration from the near east in particular.
The refugees from there need to be controlled much better, I agree there. They also don't need freedom of movement in the countries which take them in until they are accepted as refugees and get an official asylum status.
Unfortunately our capacities are way to small ensure that all this gets done.
Problem with Migration is not so much the Culture.
But the Attempt to do this on Absolute Minimal Budged.
If you want to take large amount of People from a Different Culture in. You need to Educate them. You need to Teach them just where they are and what the Laws are.
But most of all you have to give them something to do and allow them to Earn their Living.
Currently these People are often Stowed Away somewhere. With an absolutely lack of everything and are not allowed to even work to improve their Lives.
They often dont even know that the Laws are Different and dont Understand if others Tell them cause they dont Speak the language.
So being Stored Away they tend to do what they can do without needing to talk know the laws or having a permit to work.
They get Criminal.
Europeans would be the same if you Shoved them with 30 People into an 2 Room Apartment of lets be generous and say 50m² Living Room while telling them. Well sit there and Rot you aint allowed to do anything.
The Government needs to use some Money to actually Integrate these People.
Teach them the Basic Laws and the Language. And heck most of all Allow them to Work.
No Need for them to Freely Flood the Market. Simply have them Work under State Supervision for example in smaller Jobs that in the past was done by the Guys who Denied Military Service and thus did Civil Service instead. These Jobs generally dont need any bigger Education Level and can be really useful.
They also dont cost the remaining Populace any Jobs because they are usually stuff not being done unless you have the People. (Or which are usually Filled in the Books for next 3 Decades because the few Paid State Workers are running all over the Country and have not finished half their Round before the Stuff they did at the Start is already Decayed and needs Work again.....)
And after they have been Granted Permits etc they can then Join the Community not only with a bit of Starting Money and an halfwat acceptable understanding of Laws, Culture and Language. But even with some Working Experience and thus knowing what they are Worth and thus not resulting in Dumping Salaries for the Native Population.
Its similar to the Crisis Regions.
Who in their Sane Mind can seriously Believe that you can keep an Country with 10 Million Population under Control with maybe 5000 Soldiers we got there.
Its logical that ISIS etc will Recruit there. After all the 5000 Soldiers cannot Possibly Control this Area for Heavens sake.
And the same Applies here as well.
You cant Seriously Expect that you are going to Integrate 2 Million Refugees with a Budged with which you usually Integrate maybe 50.000 Immigrants of which most had Prior Knowledge and Courses to Increase their Acceptance Chances.
The Question is tough.
How is that Related to the Brexit ?
EU is pretty much Purely Western Culture and most People Speak English and have at least Basic Education.
You dont get Muslim Immigrants from the EU.
Much less Refugees.
So Leaving the EU is not helping this Issue at all.
But the Attempt to do this on Absolute Minimal Budged.
If you want to take large amount of People from a Different Culture in. You need to Educate them. You need to Teach them just where they are and what the Laws are.
But most of all you have to give them something to do and allow them to Earn their Living.
Currently these People are often Stowed Away somewhere. With an absolutely lack of everything and are not allowed to even work to improve their Lives.
They often dont even know that the Laws are Different and dont Understand if others Tell them cause they dont Speak the language.
So being Stored Away they tend to do what they can do without needing to talk know the laws or having a permit to work.
They get Criminal.
Europeans would be the same if you Shoved them with 30 People into an 2 Room Apartment of lets be generous and say 50m² Living Room while telling them. Well sit there and Rot you aint allowed to do anything.
The Government needs to use some Money to actually Integrate these People.
Teach them the Basic Laws and the Language. And heck most of all Allow them to Work.
No Need for them to Freely Flood the Market. Simply have them Work under State Supervision for example in smaller Jobs that in the past was done by the Guys who Denied Military Service and thus did Civil Service instead. These Jobs generally dont need any bigger Education Level and can be really useful.
They also dont cost the remaining Populace any Jobs because they are usually stuff not being done unless you have the People. (Or which are usually Filled in the Books for next 3 Decades because the few Paid State Workers are running all over the Country and have not finished half their Round before the Stuff they did at the Start is already Decayed and needs Work again.....)
And after they have been Granted Permits etc they can then Join the Community not only with a bit of Starting Money and an halfwat acceptable understanding of Laws, Culture and Language. But even with some Working Experience and thus knowing what they are Worth and thus not resulting in Dumping Salaries for the Native Population.
Its similar to the Crisis Regions.
Who in their Sane Mind can seriously Believe that you can keep an Country with 10 Million Population under Control with maybe 5000 Soldiers we got there.
Its logical that ISIS etc will Recruit there. After all the 5000 Soldiers cannot Possibly Control this Area for Heavens sake.
And the same Applies here as well.
You cant Seriously Expect that you are going to Integrate 2 Million Refugees with a Budged with which you usually Integrate maybe 50.000 Immigrants of which most had Prior Knowledge and Courses to Increase their Acceptance Chances.
The Question is tough.
How is that Related to the Brexit ?
EU is pretty much Purely Western Culture and most People Speak English and have at least Basic Education.
You dont get Muslim Immigrants from the EU.
Much less Refugees.
So Leaving the EU is not helping this Issue at all.
verminstar
Banned
You assume my actual experience to be limited...which would be true had I not joined the army and saw with my own eyes the very worst that religion and politics can do. However, that's neither here nor there because I will concede how that looks...like my memories of the absolute worst is now clouding my judgement. Maybe...but that doesn't make my concerns any less relevant. Those who call those concerns racism and xenophobia are dismissing them out of hand and simply refuse to even acknowledge them.
I could tell ye another story about someone who died from cancer (non smoking related) which was the result of a mistake made by a doctor who could barely speak a word of english, and got a number of blood tests mixed up which meant a true result wasn't picked up for over 2 years...which was the point where it was too late whereas 2 years ago...? Anyway yeah, also not a good argument because now it looks like I'm biased against asian doctors.
True story that btw...I am a single father after all which also doesn't look good if using a logical argument. I'm afraid for my daughter because she is autistic and already an easy target for less scrupulous folks.
There's so many different ways that you guys could psycho analize...analyse...fk it...different ways you guys could pick me apart. I can't compete with that level of education...so I ain't gonna try to.
So I'll tell ye another story. We were working on a contract up in londonderry a few years back...refitting lights under the craigavon bridge from a 130ft cherry picker. Me and another guy tried fer 2 hours to get the angle but it just couldn't be done without disabling the safety lockouts on the boom. New boss from the office comes down on site and starts shouting at us down the radio that the damned cherry picker cost 500 quid a day, so we had better get up there. My m8 Stuart point blank refused and was sacked on the spot and this guy half my age starts messing with a spare harness cos "he was gonna show us how it's done". I had that guy up just over half the height that me and Stu were doing with ease while this guy had went and peed himself, completely white knuckled and tearily eyed begging me to let him down. Guy was on his knees trying to hide the big dark stain on his shiny pressed trousers...absolutely pathetic yet this guy earns 3 times what I was making. Stuart kept his job that day and that little sht never once got into a boom cradle with me again.
Moral of the story...fer all his brains and degrees, he was utterly pitiable. He's a politician now claiming to come from working class roots...which he doesn't and never did...and claims to be an expert on health and safety..."disable those safetys or you are sacked on the spot" second last thing Stu heard before being told to not be late the next morning. Experts...can't live with them, can't live without them. On the plus side, it did motivate me to start my own company and take half his customers with me which is probably why he ended up in politics ^^
For better or worse, we are out of the EU, but one half of this country has their heads up their rectums going around telling us all how dumb the rest of us were and how bad things are gonna get...which might be fun but it's not very productive and just starts fights at a time where we literally don't have time for such luxuries. Anyway...I'm starting to ramble now
Hmm, can we have a name? I don't want to be rude but these dramatic anecdotes are easy to tell. This is a personal one, so please share who this politician who claims to have working class roots is.
I'd also like to still mention that stuff that happens to you personally, while powerful, isn't the same as statistics. You can have the bad luck to meet 3 separate nasty individuals of a given nationality of skin tone, and all that it proves is that just like the rest of us that group of people has its bad apples. It doesn't tell you "what those people are like". Some Finns are an utter disgrace, some are the finest individuals you could ever hope to meet. Same with the English, same with the Turkish and so forth.
We're not out yet, that happens when article 50 is triggered, then the clock starts ticking.
As you point out half the country are gong bananas and doing unproductive things like calling Leavers racist idiots. On the other hand, the referendum was advisory only and the result was relatively close (we'd be hearing the same thing if the figures were reversed). 17 million and change voted leave out of some 42 million voters. Only 16 million of those voted to stay but there is reasonable evidence that a large number of the non voters would have voted remain (if they could have got off their arses and voted). It isn't over until article 50 is triggered.
In the same way that you voted out of a desire to provide what's best for you and your family, many of Remain are doing the same. I genuinely believe that staying in is the best for me and mine, and that's despite being economically isolated from the EU, it will make little difference to my pocket either way.
The Remanians are doing everything possible to stop there country making what they legitimately believe to be a terrible mistake.
Just as it is a mistake of "experts" and "the educated" to discount knowledge and experience gained through practical work, so is it a mistake to regard "working class" experience as the only authentic truth.
Jet planes, satellites, the internet, heart transplants and most of the modern world wouldn't work without "experts" and "egg heads" in their ivory towers with letters after their name. On the other hand many of those things wouldn't work without the fitters, technicians, nurses, cable layers, builders, electricians and host of other "trades".
We both need each other, Leave and Remain will have to work together to sort this almighty omnishambles up.
May I ask, where did you get your impressions on immigration and EU control from? You said that a few years ago you would have been remain, but have changed your mind. Was this from personal experience or from TV or newspaper articles of just what people you spoke to said ("the word on the street" so to speak)
Ps, oh yes a name, is it a know politician or just a local councillor or similar? Give up the goods!
Last edited: