Elite Babysitter...

[jabokai]

Robert, you've already said -

I have not played online games for a number of years now due to time commitments negating regular opportunities for group play. Those games I did play were predominantly PvE.

Your perspective on this is a little dated and even when you did play MP games it was PvE. I'm not saying your opinion isn't valid but it should be put into perspective, even by yourself! I'm not sure why you're arguing quite so hard when, clearly, online games that include a PvP component were not your thing even when you did play!

Once again, a lot of this brouhaha could have been fixed by FD giving the PvE bunch their own open group where the transponders in Pilot Federation ships simply don't allow friendly fire.

 

[Theaghan Black]

It's not ill defined at all, the waters have just been deliberately muddied by those who want to create a negative association with PvPers in general, and pirates in particular.

It would be interesting to know the real griefing's definition by "those" players.

I think almost the totality of the players are not against pirates or assassins since these roles are part of the game's universe.

IMO the problem is in adding new roles who are not going to have sense in a sci-fi universe. Why should a guy kill other ships inside a station? It can be seen like the action of a madman but statistically how many times you could witness a similar episode? Be sure if you give players that freedom then every station is going to be a mess.

At the same time how many psychotic killers are out there? We know that many are killing because of profit, but almost none kills because "it's fun". Those murders have little to none sense in the universe.

IMO that's the main problem: the game should protect the player by "these" kinds of behaviour because otherwise it's going to be a mess in both immersion and playability. :smilie:

 

[Robert Maynard]

Your perspective on this is a little dated and even when you did play MP games it was PvE. I'm not saying your opinion isn't valid but it should be put into perspective, even by yourself! I'm not sure why you're arguing quite so hard when, clearly, online games that include a PvP component were not your thing even when you did play!

In your interpretation of my statement regarding PvE, you forgot to parse "predominantly". The rest of your first paragraph is therefore no longer strictly accurate. The "dated" bit I will have to accept - none of us are getting any younger....

 

[Space_Killer69]

Face it,

These arguments have been around since single worlds existed.

"UO died the day they split the player base."

Yeah they had to split the player base, the exploits, the griefing, the rampant PK'ing forced them to. Unfortunately when given a choice the cattle all ******ed off to Tramel leaving the PK'ers sat on an empty Felluca wondering why no one wanted to play with them anymore.


If we're going to play in a single galaxy then coupled with Risk/Reward there needs to be a robust consequence mechanism. Even then will it be enough?

Bottom line PK'ers need Cattle - the Cattle don't need PK'ers and there are a hell of a lot more casual players than there are PK'ers.

Ultimately its's a financial decision for FD - Niche market or more funds.

 

[Thorn Black]

Once again, a lot of this brouhaha could have been fixed by FD giving the PvE bunch their own open group where the transponders in Pilot Federation ships simply don't allow friendly fire.

Exacly thats what they want apparently, put us guys who like to fight or like the idea of fighting, freedom of doin whatever You want and be whoever you want is a problem for some. Like i want you to play with me but, and there goes litany of rules and restriction living You to just watch ...

So what :
** all-group (pvp included)
** all-group (no pvp)

Im guessing thats why they make some mmos with different servers like opn pvp and pve only ...

 

[jabokai]

In your interpretation of my statement regarding PvE, you forgot to parse "predominantly". The rest of your first paragraph is therefore no longer strictly accurate. The "dated" bit I will have to accept - none of us are getting any younger....

No, I didn't forget, I covered that with "were not your thing". Doesn't mean you didn't play other things just that you clearly had a preference.

So would you actually prefer an official PvE group to the ultra-sanitised PvP group you're arguing for?

 

[hunvagy]

No PVPers stating that its their right to fight and party, and space police can go somwhere else (delicatelly put). Noone from PVPers is telling others what to do we just counter the arguments of implementing sanctions or code in game disallowing other type of gameplay that game was assuring us will have.

[...]

So right now we cannot implementthose tools restricting anything as it wont do any good in small space. i hope they will make it bigger tho for betas. otherwise there will be kill fest

Yes, yes you just did state that it's your right to fight and party, with your last sentence. "i hope they will make it bigger tho for betas. otherwise there will be kill fest " How does this not broadcast that you think it is in your right to kill any other player without cause?

And on the contrary, it would be pretty nice to have the grouping mechanics in early in beta, because if for you (and others who think like you) it's just going to be a killfest, then the actual testing we are supposed to do will boil down to people killing people left and right without any reason at all.

 

[JeffRyan]

My argument here isn't about PvP or PvE or griefers vs pvpers or whatever. It's about whether the mechanisms being built into the game are going too far to protect those who don't wish certain behaviors to the detriment of the game as a whole.

And I am sensitive, but I'm worried because I've seen system after system added into the game and whenever a topic comes in on the DDF that relates to this, the play-it-safes have ALWAYS won.

 

[tooterfish]

I think almost the totality of the players are not against pirates or assassins since these roles are part of the game's universe.

No one is ever against these things in principle... they just don't want to have to deal with them until they're ready and willing.

Which kind of defeats the point.

It would be interesting to know the real griefing's definition by "those" players.

Precisely my point.

You don't want special protections from other players? You must be a griefer. You want piracy to actually be piracy, and not some kind of honourable duel in which everyone is fully prepared? Totes a griefer.

 

[ianw]

It always comes down to the same thing in these discussions - the two different play styles really can't co-exist in the same all group space.

You can try and rationalise it however you like to support your particular preference but at the end of the day that's all it comes down to - a preference - as to how you like to spend your leisure time in a game.

The group rules apply equally well to both sides - you can have rampant PVP or PVE groups except of course PVP'ers can't turn PVE off.

So everyone is united in forum PVP over the nature of the all group..

Whichever way it goes would upset a significant group of players so the only way the game really can be "play it your way" is with separate "all" groups.

 

[hunvagy]

My argument here isn't about PvP or PvE or griefers vs pvpers or whatever. It's about whether the mechanisms being built into the game are going too far to protect those who don't wish certain behaviors to the detriment of the game as a whole.

And I am sensitive, but I'm worried because I've seen system after system added into the game and whenever a topic comes in on the DDF that relates to this, the play-it-safes have ALWAYS won.

As being one who only sees the DDF Archives, did so much change in the Grouping document compared to the version listed there? Because that one seemed sensible to me, if at some points prone to expolitation.

 

[Thorn Black]

Yes, yes you just did state that it's your right to fight and party, with your last sentence. "i hope they will make it bigger tho for betas. otherwise there will be kill fest " How does this not broadcast that you think it is in your right to kill any other player without cause?

And on the contrary, it would be pretty nice to have the grouping mechanics in early in beta, because if for you (and others who think like you) it's just going to be a killfest, then the actual testing we are supposed to do will boil down to people killing people left and right without any reason at all.

First off its my right as free man to do what i want when i want in game.

Secondly what do You think will happen if you close pack of rats in small area, big amount of those rats, and threw in some food, just a scraps there and there. What do You think will happen ?

 

[ianw]

First off its my right as free man to do what i want when i want in game.

That only works in a single player game - clearly not everyone can do what they want in a multi-player game without encroaching on someone else's "rights".

 

[JeffRyan]

It always comes down to the same thing in these discussions - the two different play styles really can't co-exist in the same all group space.

You can try and rationalise it however you like to support your particular preference but at the end of the day that's all it comes down to - a preference - as to how you like to spend your leisure time in a game.

The group rules apply equally well to both sides - you can have rampant PVP or PVE groups except of course PVP'ers can't turn PVE off.

So everyone is united in forum PVP over the nature of the all group..

Whichever way it goes would upset a significant group of players so the only way the game really can be "play it your way" is with separate "all" groups.

Amen. And I don't know which side of the argument you're on. And it doesn't matter. I think we /were/ heading for some sort of balance with groups and ignore features and whatnot but I feel we've steered too far in the other direction now. Hence the OP.

 

[Maxeren]

...I've seen system after system added into the game and whenever a topic comes in on the DDF that relates to this, the play-it-safes have ALWAYS won.

Yes.. and this worries me alot, PvP'ers here might be a vocal group, but there obviously seems to be a reason for them to be that way.

 

[hunvagy]

First off its my right as free man to do what i want when i want in game.

Secondly what do You think will happen if you close pack of rats in small area, big amount of those rats, and threw in some food, just a scraps there and there. What do You think will happen ?

So you are meaning to say that alpha and beta testers are mindless animals that are so starved of content that instead of doing what we are supposed to do (as in test the game and offer insight on how to make it better) we should just duke it out battle royale style?

Also, you say that it's your right as a free person to do what you want and when you want. But you also say that "No PVPers stating that its their right to fight and party". Which means you are saying that you are not a PVPer yet you want to PVP. Now there's an oxymoron if I've ever seen one.

 

[JeffRyan]

As being one who only sees the DDF Archives, did so much change in the Grouping document compared to the version listed there? Because that one seemed sensible to me, if at some points prone to expolitation.

We now have the player base divided into those who want to be identified as PCs (player transponder on) and those who don't (player transponder off).

We're also now discussing having full time GMs or Game Security people to scour the spaceways for bad behavior that slips through all the nets.

Yes.. and this worries me alot, PvP'ers here might be a vocal group, but there obviously seems to be a reason for them to be that way.

Ironically as one of the 'champions of the pvper group' I'm not a pvper....

 

[Thorn Black]

That only works in a single player game - clearly not everyone can do what they want in a multi-player game without encroaching on someone else's "rights".

Its what the game states : freedom of playing style, be who You want do what you want isnt it ? Or im here by mistake ?

 

[Adept]

First off its my right as free man to do what i want when i want in game.

Secondly what do You think will happen if you close pack of rats in small area, big amount of those rats, and threw in some food, just a scraps there and there. What do You think will happen ?

If you are looking for a libertarian MMO space experience, that is called EVE. Some people thrive in it. Many others think it's terrible.

 

[JeffRyan]

Its what the game states : freedom of playing style, be who You want do what you want isnt it ? Or im here by mistake ?

You're here by mistake... And yeah it's quickly become 'play how you want, just don't make anyone else mad.'